The Fate/Grand Retagging Project

nonamethanks said:

They're supposed to be the same character story-wise.

No, the various Hassans are different characters.
To simplify it, they are 5 different people with the same name and same job, but differing ways to think, different aesthetics and all that.
The only one who has multiple tags related to themselves is Hassan of the Hundred Faces, who is the same heroic spirit, but has a hundred different bodies.

I'm unsure if this explains more clearly.
Doesn't help that their noble phantasms, despite all having the same name (Zabaniya), are vastly different.

Username_Hidden said:

No, the various Hassans are different characters.
To simplify it, they are 5 different people with the same name and same job, but differing ways to think, different aesthetics and all that.

Yeah, like saber and saber alter. It's the same character, it doesn't matter what mental masturbation the type-moon writers came up with to justify her, if her basic form is basically another character with the same name but different hairstyle.
There's a quote from the original illustrator that explicitly says that she's based on female assassin here. In any case this wasn't even my original argument, which is that "hassan" is the same concept applied to N characters.

Anyway the discussion is straying from the original point, which is that there are many different assassins with confusing and often conflicting names (true/false assassin being the main problem), so those have to also be dealt with.

(Also this is testament to why fate discussions never go anywhere, because every argument descends into semantics over designs made 20 years ago as fap fuel)

So, cutting through the bullshit as best I can, we end up with:

assassin_(fate/zero) -> Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(female)
female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> same character as above, this tag doesn't need to exist
Create and garden Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(male) for images such as post #1451823
child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(Child)
true_assassin -> Hassan_of_the_Cursed_Arm
assassin_(fate/strange fake) stays as is because there's no other name for them, same with king_hassan_(fate).

...adding "_(fate)" where relevant.

Veradux said:

So, cutting through the bullshit as best I can, we end up with:

assassin_(fate/zero) -> Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(female)
female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> same character as above, this tag doesn't need to exist
Create and garden Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(male) for images such as post #1451823
child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(Child)
true_assassin -> Hassan_of_the_Cursed_Arm
assassin_(fate/strange fake) stays as is because there's no other name for them, same with king_hassan_(fate).

...adding "_(fate)" where relevant.

There are cases like post #1460691 where the character is a female child, so (female) and (child) might be a mess to keep apart. Same for (male). I think all the hassan hundred faces versions should stay under the same tag for this, because there's so many that a few artists have drawn their own versions.

nonamethanks said:

There are cases like post #1460691 where the character is a female child, so (female) and (child) might be a mess to keep apart. Same for (male).

The child is a scrapped character, pretty sure she's always supposed to be female.

Veradux said:

assassin_(fate/zero) -> Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_(female)
female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> same character as above, this tag doesn't need to exist

-1, Hassan of the hundred persona should be an umbrella tag.
An argument could be made for a Hassan_of_the_Hundred_Persona_* search, but that fucks with newbie users.

Username_Hidden said:
-1, Hassan of the hundred persona should be an umbrella tag.

Agree on this

Pretty sure I accounted for Hassan of Hundred Personas in the list I made in the first post, being:

Rename/alias assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
imply child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
imply female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)

Of course, the alias would have to be done first before the implications.

Of Hundred Personas’ identified personas, only Female (or “Asako”) and Child are distinctly depicted through in-game portraits, as they’re the only female ones seen. There are other ones, as stated in HP’s Interlude segment in FGO, but you either don’t get to see what they look like, or they’re the generic Hassan enemies players encounter in the game. Generally, the male personas look so similar to each other that it’s nearly impossible to identify a specific one.

To be specific, generic HP personas encountered as enemies are Zayed the Base, Gozul the Strong and Makul the Quick. Along with those three, a fourth one called Dew Painter is mentioned in HP’s interlude segment, but not actually seen. Child Hassan is referred to as Little Hassan, but I think the Child Hassan tag is good enough as it is.

The interlude is on YouTube if you guys want to review it. I’d copy and paste it, but I don’t know how to do that on an IPad. Sorry. :/

Benit149 said:

Of Hundred Personas’ identified personas, only Female (or “Asako”) and Child are distinctly depicted through in-game portraits, as they’re the only female ones seen. [...]

To be specific, generic HP personas encountered as enemies are Zayed the Base, Gozul the Strong and Makul the Quick. Along with those three, a fourth one called Dew Painter is mentioned in HP’s interlude segment, but not actually seen. Child Hassan is referred to as Little Hassan, but I think the Child Hassan tag is good enough as it is.

In FGO, they also appear during attacks.
Looking through the Hundred Faces artworks, it looks like female hassan wasn't that popular until she came out in FGO. Before then, it looks like it was mostly male hassan (Zayed) artworks.

Username_Hidden said:

In FGO, they also appear during attacks.

Oh, right. I forgot about HP’s regular attacks and Noble Phantasm, where dozens of them overwhelm the opponent.

Looking through the Hundred Faces artworks, it looks like female hassan wasn't that popular until she came out in FGO. Before then, it looks like it was mostly male hassan (Zayed) artworks.

Considering that Fate/Zero came out in 2011, and FGO released in Japan in 2015 (here in 2017), they probably never expected that a mobile game would be produced when they originally designed HP’s character. Since it’s a visual novel style of game, they would’ve needed to depict HP for their lines somehow, so they used Female to differentiate her from the male personas (who, BTW, look extremely similar to Hassan of Cursed Arm). Seriously, trying to tell the males apart is an exercise in futility.

From my understanding of Child Hassan, she was supposed to be in Fate/Zero but was scrapped there and reused in FGO in the interlude mentioned above, along with a short scene seen during the Setsubun event last year (where Female and Child are in an onsen together).

I'd separate the males in just "male" and "buff male" tbh, no need to overcomplicate things.

I'm just trying to figure out what to do with the True Assassin tag here. I'm not trying to untangle all the other Assassins.

This is what I understand:

• There's a character called True Assassin in Fate/stay night.
• There's also a character called True Assassin in Fate/strange Fake.
• These are two different characters:
• The True Assassin tag is for the one from Fate/stay night, not the one from Fate/strange Fake.
• The one from Fate/stay night also appears in Fate/Grand Order, where his true name is given as "Hassan of the Cursed Arm".
• The one from Fate/strange Fake has no true name beyond "Hassan-i-Sabbah". His specific "Hassan of Whatever" name is unknown. The Type-Moon wiki calls him Hassan-i-Sabbah (strange Fake) and treats him as a different character from Hassan of the Cursed Arm.
• But this is all moot, because we have no fanart of the True Assassin from Fate/strange Fake, and even if we did, his appearance is basically identical to True Assassin from Fate/stay night, even though they're different characters lore-wise.

My only question is: is it correct that True Assassin should be called Hassan of the Cursed Arm (Fate)?

The bulk update request #4580 (forum #179911) has been approved by @evazion.

evazion said:

My only question is: is it correct that True Assassin should be called Hassan of the Cursed Arm (Fate)?

Yes.

evazion said:

My only question is: is it correct that True Assassin should be called Hassan of the Cursed Arm (Fate)?

Yes, I'd say so, both other named Hassans got renamed to their titles

Agreed with the two above.

+1 True Assassin (from FSN) = Hassan of the Cursed Arm.
Which is separate from Hassan of Hundred Personas (however we want to handle tagging that one) or King Hassan or etc.

For Jack the Ripper I'd separate with a series disambiguation rather than class, personally. Fate/Apocrypha and Fate/Strange Fake.

Astolfo said:

For Jack the Ripper I'd separate with a series disambiguation rather than class, personally. Fate/Apocrypha and Fate/Strange Fake.

This gets back to the question of whether to use class names or series names to disambiguate characters. Tags like Jack the Ripper (Fate/Apocrypha) are a little confusing to me because it sounds like the character only appears in Fate/Apocrypha. Especially when most other Fate/Apocrypha characters are qualified with just *_(Fate). Then I see posts tagged Jack the Ripper (Fate/Apocrypha) but not Fate/Apocrypha and I wonder what the hell is going on.

Of course, if we use class names, then you have to memorize stuff like "Jack the Ripper (Assassin) is the one from Apocrypha and Grand Order, while Jack the Ripper (Berserker) is the one from Fate/Strange Fake (that nobody cares about)". I just chalk this up to Fate being inherently confusing.

The bulk update request #4585 (forum #179919) has been approved by @evazion.

BUR #4599 has been approved by @evazion.

Convert more character qualifiers to *_(fate).

BUR #4600 has been approved by @evazion.

create alias gawain_(fate/extra) -> gawain_(fate)
create alias gawain_(fate/grand_order) -> gawain_(fate)

I think these are the same character. See forum #141138.