[discussion] nuking remodel_(kantai_collection) into separate character tags

Bump.
We need a consensus now that today's update introduced Yahagi and Mogami's Kai Ni forms, meaning NNT would have to include those too in the update requests.

Like what has been said in here before, nuking the remodel tags into their separate individual tags will benefit us and regular searching users more in the long-run since we're disambiguating the works portraying non-remod forms and the works that do show the remodel.

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Bumping for the new year because this needs to be tackled as soon as we can before the sheer number of posts to be affected would make gardening the tags insanely difficult.

I move to retire the kancolle remodels tag based on NNT's original sentiments in the original comment on this discussion, and it should be fairly easy to see why: other franchises we have registered on Danbo (Fate, Azur Lane, Girls Frontline, Arknights, Honkai) all follow separate chartagging for alternate versions of a single character (heck, even Evazion stated this in forum #172656 that If a character has multiple distinct versions, then each version should get its own tag.)

And I also quote Evazion from that same forum comment:

Kantai Collection is the worst of them all. I look up a character like Yuudachi and see that her wiki says she has a remodel and five different seasonal costumes. But fuck me if I want to actually see any of these different versions. I'm left trying to cobble together some kind of general tag search to find a costume I've never actually seen, based solely on a written description in a wiki. It's like we're deliberately trying to make this as hard as possible. And that's the best case scenario, often alternate costumes aren't mentioned at all, or the list is outdated, so you don't even know what you're missing.
This may be heretical of me to say, but I think the remodel approach is bad even for Kantai Collection. It makes no sense why characters like Verniy and Italia get unique tags, even though they're just palette swaps, while characters like Yuudachi Kai Ni or Shigure Kai Ni don't get tags, even though their remodels are more popular than their unremodeled versions. Even back in topic #9920 when the remodel tag was created, there was some dissent over the idea for these very reasons.

Basically,
Why would bronya_zaychik get multiple chartags of what is essentially the same person across different versions and gimmicks but yuudachi_(kancolle) can't?

As NNT put it,

It makes no sense that someone can't just search for shigure kai ni (kantai collection) or yuudachi kai ni (kantai collection). Why would someone have to go and research a character's alternate models outside of the site when they want to search for a specific design?
It's also diametrically opposed to how we handle almost all of the other alternate forms across gacha and various other franchises. It's ultimately a tag that is user unfriendly and only helpful to those who already know it all about Kantai Collection.

To allay fears in the discussions on Discord before the New Year that nuking the remodel tags into separate chartags would set off a domino effect where users can also apply tags on the seasonal costumes, those are unnamed. They were never given official names by C2 Kikan, unlike FGO, AL, AK, GFL, and Honkai. Ergo, their seasonal costumes cannot and should not be given separate chartags.

I simply do not understand why we have consistently shied away from implementing the same separated chartag system if they remodel and change uniform, physical attribute, and personality. As we speak, there's already an ongoing BUR regarding Ritsuka Fujimaru's outfit change at topic #20240.
I understand that Fate's lore presented (and continues to present) headaches for tagging characters, especially if they have sameface, and I understand that some people here are a bit apprehensive about applying the changes now, seeming content with the status quo, but I can assure this: Kantai Collection's shipgirls do not share the same lore problems, and the tags shall only be applied for the remodels.

Those same discussions on Discord have turned up apprehension at extending the same system to Kancolle despite previous sentiments, especially since I have decided to do the act myself and add remodel tags to the newest kai ni remodels implemented ( oyashio_kai_ni_(kancolle), yamakaze_kai_ni_(kancolle), mogami_kai_ni_(kancolle), and un'you_kai_ni_(kancolle) ) only to have them rescinded without warning after Christmas.
I was given a "free pass" to do those at my own discretion and risk, and yet we kept resisting this change.

Bottom line: If other franchises get to have that tagging system, why shouldn't Kancolle? It's time to end this.

Should we continue applying double standards for Kancolle's remodeled shipgirls (and disregarding the sentiments of the two site admins), or should we take action before we pass that threshold?

Thank you.
-Arcie Albano

BUR #8497 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

I have cleaned out the original NNT BUR to eliminate all kai (or first remodel) tag updates, only the second remodels (kai ni) are to be targeted.
Also corrected the foreigners' kai ni by language implemented in the game (mk ii, andra, drei, due, dva).
Also updated it by inserting in their place some kai ni that NNT left out previously and kai ni released after the original BURs was submitted.

Like I keep saying, either we do this to honor NNT's (forum #179942) and evazion's prior sentiments (forum #172656) for equality with other franchises that get this treatment, or keep this awful double standard of a status quo regarding Kancolle shipgirl remodels.

If you do it like that it'll remove the base form tags from all the posts it moves. You need to add the original form to the right side too.

BUR #8504 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

I forgot to place the implications as NNT said earlier because I was following the original BUR and actually intended to follow up the implications on a separate BUR to fix the problem.

+'ing the big BUR provided this is done:

nonamethanks said:

If you do it like that it'll remove the base form tags from all the posts it moves. You need to add the original form to the right side too.

ArcieA said:

BUR #8504 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Show

create implication abukuma_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> abukuma_(kancolle)
create implication arare_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> arare_(kancolle)
create implication arashio_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> arashio_(kancolle)
create implication fumizuki_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> fumizuki_(kancolle)
create implication hatsushimo_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> hatsushimo_(kancolle)
create implication hyuuga_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> hyuuga_(kancolle)
create implication kagerou_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kagerou_(kancolle)
create implication kuroshio_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kuroshio_(kancolle)
create implication michishio_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> michishio_(kancolle)
create implication naganami_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> naganami_(kancolle)
create implication shiranui_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> shiranui_(kancolle)
create implication yuudachi_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yuudachi_(kancolle)
create implication akagi_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> akagi_(kancolle)
create implication akatsuki_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> akatsuki_(kancolle)
create implication akebono_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> akebono_(kancolle)
create implication akigumo_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> akigumo_(kancolle)
create implication ashigara_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> ashigara_(kancolle)
create implication ayanami_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> ayanami_(kancolle)
create implication chikuma_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> chikuma_(kancolle)
create implication choukai_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> choukai_(kancolle)
create implication bismarck_drei_(kancolle) -> bismarck_(kancolle)
create implication fletcher_mk_ii_(kancolle) -> fletcher_(kancolle)
create implication fubuki_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> fubuki_(kancolle)
create implication furutaka_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> furutaka_(kancolle)
create implication fusou_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> fusou_(kancolle)
create implication gangut_dva_(kancolle) -> gangut_(kancolle)
create implication gotland_andra_(kancolle) -> gotland_(kancolle)
create implication haguro_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> haguro_(kancolle)
create implication haruna_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> haruna_(kancolle)
create implication hatsuharu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> hatsuharu_(kancolle)
create implication hiryuu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> hiryuu_(kancolle)
create implication ise_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> ise_(kancolle)
create implication isuzu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> isuzu_(kancolle)
create implication jintsuu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> jintsuu_(kancolle)
create implication jun'you_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> jun'you_(kancolle)
create implication kaga_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kaga_(kancolle)
create implication kako_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kako_(kancolle)
create implication kawakaze_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kawakaze_(kancolle)
create implication kazagumo_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kazagumo_(kancolle)
create implication kinu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kinu_(kancolle)
create implication kinugasa_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kinugasa_(kancolle)
create implication kirishima_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kirishima_(kancolle)
create implication kisaragi_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kisaragi_(kancolle)
create implication kiso_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kiso_(kancolle)
create implication kuma_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> kuma_(kancolle)
create implication maya_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> maya_(kancolle)
create implication mogami_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> mogami_(kancolle)
create implication murakumo_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> murakumo_(kancolle)
create implication mutsu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> mutsu_(kancolle)
create implication mutsuki_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> mutsuki_(kancolle)
create implication myoukou_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> myoukou_(kancolle)
create implication nachi_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> nachi_(kancolle)
create implication nagato_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> nagato_(kancolle)
create implication naka_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> naka_(kancolle)
create implication noshiro_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> noshiro_(kancolle)
create implication okinami_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> okinami_(kancolle)
create implication ooshio_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> ooshio_(kancolle)
create implication oyashio_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> oyashio_(kancolle)
create implication ryuujou_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> ryuujou_(kancolle)
create implication saratoga_mk_ii_(kancolle) -> saratoga_(kancolle)
create implication satsuki_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> satsuki_(kancolle)
create implication sendai_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> sendai_(kancolle)
create implication shigure_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> shigure_(kancolle)
create implication shoukaku_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> shoukaku_(kancolle)
create implication souryuu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> souryuu_(kancolle)
create implication tama_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> tama_(kancolle)
create implication tatsuta_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> tatsuta_(kancolle)
create implication tenryuu_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> tenryuu_(kancolle)
create implication tone_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> tone_(kancolle)
create implication umikaze_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> umikaze_(kancolle)
create implication un'you_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> un'you_(kancolle)
create implication ushio_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> ushio_(kancolle)
create implication yahagi_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yahagi_(kancolle)
create implication yamakaze_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yamakaze_(kancolle)
create implication yamashiro_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yamashiro_(kancolle)
create implication yukikaze_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yukikaze_(kancolle)
create implication yura_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yura_(kancolle)
create implication yuugumo_kai_ni_(kancolle) -> yuugumo_(kancolle)
create implication zara_due_(kancolle) -> zara_(kancolle)

I forgot to place the implications as NNT said earlier because I was following the original BUR and actually intended to follow up the implications on a separate BUR to fix the problem.

Post changes are only merged if they are at most one hour apart, so if the first BUR takes more than one hour to fully process (which is possible), we'll be basically removing and re-adding the base tag from all the posts involved. That's why I said to add the base tag to the right side of the first BUR, to avoid creating twice the post versions.

nonamethanks said:

Post changes are only merged if they are at most one hour apart, so if the first BUR takes more than one hour to fully process (which is possible), we'll be basically removing and re-adding the base tag from all the posts involved. That's why I said to add the base tag to the right side of the first BUR, to avoid creating twice the post versions.

Already updated the first BUR with the appropriate changes.
Also added kuma_(kancolle) and ryuujou_(kancolle) in the lists since I forgot those two, same goes for second BUR.

ArcieA said:

Already updated the first BUR with the appropriate changes.
Also added kuma_(kancolle) and ryuujou_(kancolle) in the lists since I forgot those two, same goes for second BUR.

Ryuujou is a character who does get some design changes on her first remodel (quite a few details of the hat's design change for instance). They're fairly minor ones but they are there. I don't know whether the remodel tag is ever used for them.

skylightcrystal said:

Ryuujou is a character who does get some design changes on her first remodel (quite a few details of the hat's design change for instance). They're fairly minor ones but they are there. I don't know whether the remodel tag is ever used for them.

The corresponding kai-only original art (post #2244855) isn't tagged as such, but the second remodel art (post #2244858) is.

The purpose of the BURs I submitted is to finally retire the remodel tag initially for second remodels, with an eye for considering if it can also be applied to what evazion once commented in forum #172656 as "palette swaps" and outfit changes present in first/initial remodels like Ryuujou, Chitose, Chiyoda, Zuihou, Zuikaku, and the Unryuu-class.
And I quote from that same forum post,

Remodel tags are easy to forget about when they're treated as tag that's separate from the character.

The way I see it, the existing remodel tag is a utility tag that was conceived back in topic #9920 as a measure to keep track of whether or not the shipgirl in question is depicted in kai ni/second remod form. But it might as well have been a temporary measure until we could reach a consensus on applying separate chartags like what evazion said.