Donmai

The Fate/Grand Retagging Project

Posted under Tags

Benit149

Okay, so as discussed in topic #17300, I meticulously combed through the List of Fate Series Characters and generated a potential working BUR, as well as categorized some ambiguous tags that I wanted to ask questions about. I have to stress that this is NOT a BUR request yet! This is merely the work-in-progress so that everyone can take a good gander and discuss things properly. Once folks are happy with what's in the BUR category, then I'll make a mass update request.

I’m going to take a break for a few days, but I’ll check back in here and there to see if anything needs updating. Other than that, debate away, folks.

BUR
These tags are the ones I feel most comfortable with requesting mass updates to the *_(fate) qualifier. Of course, what I feel is fine may not be so to someone else, so feel free to nitpick this list and see if you spot any inconsistencies. I will edit and update this particular section until everyone is happy with it before making the official BUR.

Alcides_(fate/strange_fake) -> alcides_(fate)
Alice_(fate/extra) -> alice_(fate)
Altera_larva –> altera_larva_(fate)
Antonio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) -> antonio_salieri_(fate)
Arjuna_(fate/grand_order) -> arjuna_(fate)
Arondight -> arondight_(fate)
Artemis_(fate/grand_order) -> artemis_(fate)
Ashwatthama_(fate/grand_order) -> ashwatthama_(fate)
Asterios_(fate/grand_order) -> asterios_(fate)
Astraea_(fate/grand_order) -> astraea_(fate)
Avalon_(fate/stay_night) -> avalon_(fate)
Balmung_(fate/apocrypha) -> balmung_(fate)
Bartholomew_roberts_(fate/grand_order) -> bartholomew_roberts_(fate)
Bedivere -> bedivere_(fate)
Benienma_(fate/grand_order) -> benienma_(fate)
Beowulf_(fate/grand_order) -> beowulf_(fate)
Billy_the_kid_(fate/grand_order) -> billy_the_kid_(fate)
Boudica_(fate/grand_order) -> boudica_(fate)
Bradamante_(fate/grand_order) -> bradamante_(fate)
Bucephalus -> bucephalus_(fate)
Calamity_jane_(fate/grand_order) -> calamity_jane_(fate)
Caligula_(fate/grand_order) -> caligula_(fate)
Captain_nemo_(fate/grand_order) -> captain_nemo_(fate)
Caster_(fate/strange_fake) -> alexandre_dumas_(fate)
Castor_(fate/grand_order) -> castor_(fate)
Chacha_(fate/grand_order) -> chacha_(fate)
Charles_babbage_(fate/grand_order) -> charles_babbage_(fate)
Charles_henri_sanson_(fate/grand_order) -> charles-henri_sanson_(fate)
Charlotte_corday_(fate/grand_order) -> charlotte_corday_(fate)
Chevalier_d’eon_(fate/grand_order) -> chevalier_d’eon_(fate)
Christopher_columbus_(fate/grand_order) -> christopher_columbus_(fate)
Circe_(fate/grand_order) -> circe_(fate)
Clarent -> clarent_(fate)
Cleopatra_(fate/grand_order) -> cleopatra_(fate)
Colonel_olcott_(fate/grand_order) -> colonel_olcott_(fate)
Cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate)
Dahut_(fate/grand_order) -> dahut_(fate)
Darius_iii_(fate/grand_order) -> darius_iii_(fate)
David_(fate/grand_order) -> david_(fate)
Demeter_(fate/grand_order) -> demeter_(fate)
Demon_pillar_(fate/grand_order) -> demon_pillar_(fate)
Dun_stallion -> dun_stallion_(fate)
Ea_(fate/stay_night) -> ea_(fate)
Edmond_dantes_(fate/grand_order) -> edmond_dantes_(fate)
Edward_teach_(fate/grand_order) -> edward_teach_(fate)
Enki_(fate/prototype) -> enki_(fate)
Enkidu_(fate/strange_fake) -> enkidu_(fate)
Ereshkigal_(fate/grand_order) -> ereshkigal_(fate)
Eric_bloodaxe_(fate/grand_order) -> eric_bloodaxe_(fate)
Europa_(fate/grand_order) -> europa_(fate)
Euryale -> euryale_(fate)
Fergus_mac_roich_(fate/grand_order) -> fergus_mac_roich_(fate)
Fergus_mac_roich_(young)_(fate/grand_order) -> fergus_mac_roich_(young)_(fate)
Fou_(fate/grand_order) -> fou_(fate)
Fragarach -> fragarach_(fate)
Francesca_prelati_(fate) -> francesca_prelati
Fuuma_koutarou_(fate/grand_order) -> fuuma_koutarou_(fate)
Gae_bolg -> gae_bolg_(fate)
Gareth_(fate/grand_order) -> gareth_(fate)
Gawain_(fate/extra) -> gawain_(fate)
Gazer_(fate/grand_order) -> gazer_(fate)
Geronimo_(fate/grand_order) -> geronimo_(fate)
Goetia_(fate/grand_order) -> goetia_(fate)
Grainne -> grainne_(fate)
Han_xin_(fate/grand_order) -> han_xin_(fate)
Hans_christian_andersen_(fate)_(adult) -> hans_christian_andersen_(adult)_(fate)
Hector_(fate/grand_order) -> hector_(fate)
Hessian_(fate/grand_order) -> hessian_(fate)
Hijikata_toshizou_(fate/grand_order) -> hijikata_toshizou_(fate)
Houzouin_inshun_(fate/grand_order) -> houzouin_inshun_(fate)
Ifrit_(fate/grand_order) -> ifrit_(fate)
Ivan_the_terrible_(fate/grand_order) -> ivan_the_terrible_(fate)
James_moriarty_(fate/grand_order) -> james_moriarty_(fate)
Jason_(fate/grand_order) -> jason_(fate)
Jing_ke_(fate/grand_order) -> jing_ke_(fate)
Joyeuse_ordre -> joyeuse_ordre_(fate)
Julius_caesar_(fate/grand_order) -> julius_caesar_(fate)
Kama_(fate/grand_order) -> kama_(fate)
Kasuga_no_tsubone_(fate/grand_order) -> kasuga_no_tsubone_(fate)
Katou_danzou_(fate/grand_order) -> katou_danzou_(fate)
Kobayashi_(fate/zero) -> kobayashi_(fate)
Kotone_(fate/zero) -> kotone_(fate)
Koyanskaya -> koyanskaya_(fate)
Lahmu -> lahmu_(fate)
Lakshmibai_(fate/grand_order) -> lakshmibai_(fate)
Lavinia_whateley_(fate/grand_order) -> lavinia_whateley_(fate)
Leysritt -> leysritt_(fate)
Lobo_(fate/grand_order) -> lobo_(fate)
Mandricardo_(fate/grand_order) -> mandricardo_(fate)
Mata_hari_(fate/grand_order) -> mata_hari_(fate)
Matsudaira_nobutsuna_(fate/grand_order) -> matsudaira_nobutsuna_(fate)
Mephistopheles_(fate/grand_order) -> mephistopheles_(fate)
Mithrenes -> mithrenes_(fate)
Moses_(fate/prototype_fragments) -> moses_(fate)
Musashibo_benkei_(fate/grand_order) -> musashibo_benkei_(fate)
Naga_(fate/grand_order) -> naga_(fate)
Napoleon_bonaparte_(fate/grand_order) -> napoleon_bonaparte_(fate)
Nefertari_(fate/prototype_fragments) -> nefertari_(fate)
Nezha_(fate/grand_order) -> nezha_(fate)
Nikola_tesla_(fate/grand_order) -> nikola_tesla_(fate)
Nursery_rhyme_(fate/extra) -> nursery_rhyme_(fate)
Oda_nobukatsu_(fate/grand_order) -> oda_nobukatsu_(fate)
Odysseus_(fate/grand_order) -> odysseus_(fate)
Okada_izou_(dog) -> okada_izou_(dog)_(fate)
Onui_(fate/grand_order) -> onui_(fate)
Oprichnik_(fate/grand_order) -> oprichnik_(fate)
Ougi_(fate/zero) -> ougi_(fate)
Paris_(fate/grand_order) -> paris_(fate)
Patxi -> patxi_(fate)
Paul_bunyan_(fate/grand_order) -> paul_bunyan_(fate)
Penthesilea_(fate/grand_order) -> penthesilea_(fate)
Phantom_of_the_opera_(fate/grand_order) -> phantom_of_the_opera_(fate)
Photon_ray -> photon_ray_(fate)
Pollux_(fate/grand_order) -> pollux_(fate)
Qin_shi_huang_(fate/grand_order) -> qin_shi_huang_(fate)
Queen_of_sheba_(fate/grand_order) -> queen_of_sheba_(fate)
Rama_(fate/grand_order) -> rama_(fate)
Rasputin_(fate/grand_order) -> rasputin_(fate)
Red_hare_(fate/grand_order) -> red_hare_(fate)
Rhongomyniad -> rhongomyniad_(fate)
Roland_(fate/grand_order) -> roland_(fate)
Rohngall -> rohngall_(fate)
Romulus_(fate/grand_order) -> romulus_(fate)
Romulus_quirinus_(fate/grand_order) -> romulus_quirinus_(fate)
Saber_(fate/strange_fake) -> richard_i_(fate)
Sakata_kintoki_rider_(fate/grand_order) -> sakata_kintoki_(rider)_(fate)
Salome_(fate/grand_order) -> salome_(fate)
Scathach_skadi_(fate/grand_order) -> scathach_skadi_(fate)
Scheherazade_(fate/grand_order) -> scheherazade_(fate)
Sella -> sella_(fate)
Shamhat -> shamhat_(fate)
Sherlock_holmes_(fate/grand_order) -> sherlock_holmes_(fate)
Shibata_katsuie_(fate/grand_order) -> shibata_katsuie_(fate)
Shirley_(fate/zero) -> shirley_(fate)
Shirou_(fate/grand_order) -> shirou_(fate)
Siduri_(fate/grand_order) -> siduri_(fate)
Sieg_(fate/apocrypha) -> sieg_(fate)
Sigma_(fate/strange_fake) -> sigma_(fate)
Sigurd_(fate/grand_order) -> sigurd_(fate)
Sita_(fate/grand_order) -> sita_(fate)
Sitonai -> sitonai_(fate)
Solomon_(fate/grand_order) -> solomon_(fate)
Stheno -> stheno_(fate)
Summer_casual_(fate/grand_order) -> summer_casual_(fate)
Surtr_(fate/grand_order) -> surtr_(fate)
Tamamo_(assassin)_(fate) -> tamamo_no_mae_(assassin)_(fate)
Tasuke_(fate/grand_order) -> tasuke_(fate)
Thomas_edison_(fate/grand_order) -> thomas_edison_(fate)
Tiamat_(fate/grand_order) -> tiamat_(fate)
Tristan_(fate/grand_order) -> tristan_(fate)
Tokitarou_(fate/grand_order) -> tokitarou_(fate)
Toyotomi_hideyoshi_(koha-ace) -> toyotomi_hideyoshi_(fate)
Twinmyniad -> twinmyniad_(fate)
Valkyrie_(fate/grand_order) -> valkyrie_(fate)
Ortlinde_(fate/grand_order) -> ortlinde_(fate)
Hildr_(fate/grand_order) -> hildr_(fate)
Thrud_(fate/grand_order) -> thrud_(fate)
Viy -> viy_(fate)
Voyager_(fate/requiem) -> voyager_(fate)
Watcher_(fate/strange_fake) -> watcher_(fate)
William_tell_(fate/grand_order) -> william_tell_(fate)
Wolfgang_amadeus_mozart_(fate/grand_order) -> wolfgang_amadeus_mozart_(fate)
Wu_zetian_(fate/grand_order) -> wu_zetian_(fate)
Xiang_yu_(fate/grand_order) -> xiang_yu_(fate)
Xuangzang_(fate/grand_order) -> xuangzang_sanzang_(fate)
Yagyuu_munemori_(fate/grand_order) -> yagyuu_munemori_(fate)
Yan_qing_(fate/grand_order) -> yan_qing_(fate)
Yang_guifei_(fate/grand_order) -> yang_guifei_(fate)
Yvette_l._lehrman -> yvette_l_lehrman
Zeus_(fate/grand_order) -> zeus_(fate)

EDIT: Added on 2020-09-15

arjuna_alter -> arjuna_(alter)_(fate)
archer -> archer_(fate)
archer_alter -> archer_(fate/grand_order:_first_order)
saber -> artoria_pendragon_(fate)
saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(fate)
santa_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(santa)_(fate)
saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(lily)_(fate)
saber_lion -> artoria_pendragon_(lion_costume)_(fate)
sader -> artoria_pendragon_(sader)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(lancer) -> artoria_pendragon_(lancer)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(lancer_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(lancer)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer) -> artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_rider_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(caster) -> artoria_pendragon_(caster)_(fate)
assassin_(fate/stay_night) -> sasaki_kojirou_(fate)
assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
imply child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
imply female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
avenger -> angra_mainyu_(fate)
bb_(fate/extra_cc) -> bb_(fate)
unimply bb_(fate/extra_ccc) -> bb_(fate)_(all)
unimply bb_(swimsuit_mooncancer)_(fate) -> bb_(fate)_(all)
bellerophon -> bellerophon_(fate)
berserker -> heracles_(fate)
berserker_(fate/strange_fake) -> jack_the_ripper_(fate/strange_fake) (vs. jack_the_ripper_(fate/apocrypha))
black_keys -> black_keys_(fate) (to disambiguate them from keys that are colored black)
caladbolg -> caladbolg_(fate)
caliburn -> caliburn_(fate)
caster -> medea_(fate)
caster_lily -> medea_(lily)_(fate)
emiya_alter -> emiya_(alter)_(fate)
excalibur -> excalibur_(fate/stay_night) (to fit with excalibur_(fate/prototype)
galahad_alter -> galahad_(alter)_(fate) (Galahad Alter uses the (Alter) convention, seen HERE)
gilgamesh -> gilgamesh_(fate/stay_night)
archer_(fate/prototype) -> gilgamesh_(fate/prototype)
child_gilgamesh -> child_gilgamesh_(fate)
invisible_air -> invisible_air_(fate)
lancer -> cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate)
cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate)
cu_chulainn_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(alter)_(fate)
lancer_(prisma_illya) -> cu_chulainn_(prisma_illya)_(fate)
unimply cu_chulainn_(fate/prototype) -> cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all)
li_shuwen_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(young_lancer)_(fate)
li_shuwen_(koha-ace) -> li_shuwen_(old_lancer)_(fate)
li_shuwen_(fate/extra) -> li_shuwen_(young_assassin)_(fate)
imperial_head_guard_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(old_assassin)_(fate)
jeanne_d'arc_(swimsuit_archer) -> jeanne_d'arc_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)
jeanne d'arc_(alter_swimsuit_berserker) -> jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(swimsuit_berserker)_(fate)
lancer_(fate/zero) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(lancer)_(fate)
diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate/grand_order) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(saber)_(fate)
leonidas_(fate/grand_order) -> leonidas_(fate)
limited/zero_over -> sengo_muramasa_(fate)
karin_(fate/requiem) -> karin_(fate)
kazuradrop -> kazuradrop_(fate)
kingprotea -> kingprotea_(fate)
marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate)
mecha_eli-chan -> mecha_eli-chan_(fate)
mecha_eli-chan_mk.ii -> mecha_eli-chan_mk.ii_(fate)
meltryllis -> meltryllis_(fate)
merlin_(fate) -> merlin_(fate/stay_night) (to fit with merlin_(fate/prototype)
unimply medb_(fate/grand_order) -> medb_(fate)_(all)
unimply medb_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate) -> medb_(fate)_(all)
medusa_(lancer_alter)_(fate) -> medusa_(fate/grand_order:_first_order)
unimply mordred_(fate) -> mordred_(fate)_(all)
unimply mordred_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate) -> mordred_(fate)_(all)
mysterious_heroine_x -> mysterious_heroine_x_(fate)
mysterious_heroine_x_(alter) -> mysterious_heroine_x_(alter)_(fate)
mysterious_heroine_xx_(foreigner) -> mysterious_heroine_xx_(fate)
ultra_heroine_z -> ultra_heroine_z_(fate)
nameless_dagger -> nameless_dagger_(fate)
unimply nitocris_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate) -> nitocris_(fate/grand_order)
passionlip -> passionlip_(fate)
rider_(fate/strange_fake) -> pale_rider_(fate)
saint_george_(fate/grand_order) -> georgios_(fate)
saint_martha -> martha_(fate)
unimply saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> saint_martha
saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate)
saver -> saver_(fate/prototype) (vs. saver_(fate/extra))
true_assassin -> hassan_of_cursed_arm_(fate)
true_caster -> francois_prelati_(fate)
true_rider -> hippolyta_(fate)
utsumi_erise -> utsumi_erice (found official art of the intended writing for Erice's name)
violet_(fate/extra_ccc) -> violet_(fate)

Now for the categories of tags that I wanted to ask detailed questions on before potentially moving them to the BUR section.

SINGULAR CLASS NAME TAGS
Some of the characters in Fate/Stay Night and subsequent Fate media have been tagged under their Class Name for many years on Danbooru. Given the need to update Fate franchise tags en masse, these ones may need some scrutiny as well.

  • Assassin_(fate/stay_night) -> sasaki_kojirou_(fate)
  • Assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate) (to fit with hassan_of_serenity_(fate))
    • Imply child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)?
    • Imply female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)?
  • Assassin_(fate/strange_fake) -> ??? (doesn’t have a given name in-universe, so I don’t know what to call her)
  • Avenger -> angra_mainyu_(fate)
  • Berserker -> heracles_(fate)
  • Caster -> medea_(fate)
  • Caster_lily -> medea_(caster_lily)_(fate)
  • Caster_(fate/zero) -> gilles_de_rais_(caster)_(fate)
    • Gilles_de_rais_(fate/grand_order) -> gilles_de_rais_(saber)_(fate) (to agree with the above)
  • Lancer -> cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate) (vs. cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate) or cu_chulainn_alter_(fate))
  • Rider -> medusa_(rider)_(fate) (vs. medusa_(lancer)_(fate) or medusa_(lancer_alter)_(fate))
  • Rider_(fate/strange_fake) -> pale_rider_(fate) (Pale Rider is a nickname given to this Servant since they don’t really have an official True Name)
  • Saber -> artoria_pendragon_(saber) (See artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) in the Oddities section concerning most Artoria chartags lacking the *_(fate) qualifier)
  • Saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_alter) OR artoria_pendragon_(alter_saber) OR artoria_pendragon_alter_(saber)
  • Saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_lily) OR artoria_pendragon_(lily_saber) OR artoria_pendragon_lily_(saber)
  • Saber_lion -> artoria_pendragon_(lion_costume)
  • True_assassin -> hassan_of_cursed_arm_(fate) (to fit with hassan_of_serenity_(fate))
  • True_caster -> francois_prelati_(fate)
  • True_rider -> hippolyta_(fate)

SPOILER CHARACTERS
The very rare cases where defining a character’s real identity is considered a spoiler. Of everyone, I could only find three:

  • Archer -> archer_(fate)
  • Berserker_(fate/zero) (should probably be left alone due to the spoilery nature behind this character)
  • Lancer_(fate/zero) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(lancer)_(fate) (I’m still not sure why Diarmuid’s name is considered a spoiler since it’s not given the profound treatment that Berserker’s does. Alas, I’ve stuck it here just in case)
    • Diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate/grand_order) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(saber)_(fate) (to agree with the above)

ALTER VS. (ALTER)
Both FGO and Danbooru can’t get it right whether to put the word ‘Alter’ (or ‘Lily’, but Alter is more prevalent) as part of a character’s name or to stick it inside brackets as its own official qualifier. In the Japanese version, ‘Alter’ is written in brackets next to the character’s name. In the English version, ‘Alter’ is treated as part of a character’s name.

Maybe I’m going mental after working on this for so long…

  • Arjuna_alter -> arjuna_alter_(fate) OR arjuna_(alter)_(fate)
  • Artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_rider_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_alter_(swimsuit_rider) OR leave this one alone?
  • Atalanta_(alter)_(fate) -> atalanta_alter_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Cu_chulainn_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_alter_(fate) OR cu_chulainn_(alter)_(fate)
  • Emiya_alter -> emiya_alter_(fate) OR emiya_(alter)_(fate)
  • Jeanne_d’arc_(alter)_(fate) -> jeanne_d’arc_alter_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Jeanne_d’arc_(alter_swimsuit_berserker) -> jeanne_d’arc_alter_(swimsuit_berserker)_(fate) OR leave this one alone? (see Default Vs. Special Forms below for further concerns with this specific chartag)
  • Mysterious_heroine_x_(alter) -> mysterious_heroine_x_alter OR leave this one alone?
  • Okita_souji_(alter)_(fate) -> okita_souji_alter_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_alter) OR artoria_pendragon_(alter_saber) OR artoria_pendragon_alter_(saber)
  • Saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_lily) OR artoria_pendragon_(lily_saber) OR artoria_pendragon_lily_(saber)

DEFAULT FORM VS. SWIMSUIT/HOLIDAY/SPECIAL FORMS
These characters cover the range who have swimsuit and/or special holiday variants that need to be differentiated from their regular forms. The vast majority of them will have existing swimsuit versions. There’s two options we can go with this; either the regular version is tagged as *_(CLASS)_(fate) to make them fit with their *_(ALTER/LILY_SWIMSUIT/HOLIDAY_CLASS)_(fate) cousins, or we leave the regular versions as plain ol’ *_(fate).

It’s so iffy to change some of the older and more popular/populated chartags like Nero_Claudius_(fate), Okita_Souji_(fate) or Oda_Nobunaga_(fate) since they seem to be treated as sacrosanct on Danbooru. Even so, if there is a consensus for adding their class as a qualifier, then of course no one can be exempted from this for consistency’s sake.

In the back of my mind though, I keep worrying of the trouble with just sticking with plain *_(fate) as the qualifier - since Fate/Grand Order is an ongoing thing, that means new characters are going to be made, which means that those who are just attributed to *_(fate) will inevitably have to expand. Let’s pretend that Servant Z is currently a Saber, and only known under the tag servant_z_(fate). FGO then comes out with a Swimsuit Archer variant two years from now. That means that servant_z_(fate) needs to be broken down into servant_z_(saber)_(fate) and servant_z_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate) to tell them apart. In other words, we’d have to keep our eyes peeled out for these future instances. This is why I make *_(CLASS)_(fate) suggestions apart from the *_(fate) suggestions.

I also need to make mention of how confused I was with the naming convention for some of these characters. As far as tackling something complicated as Santa Alter (see below), I would like to have a defined naming convention for qualifiers. It doesn’t help that we have existing tags like:

Artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_rider_alter)
Jeanne_d’arc_(alter_swimsuit_berserker)

They may be the only examples, but by god, the qualifiers are just all over the place. I think we need to decide on this - in what order should the following concepts be organized in for those inevitably more cumbersome qualifiers?

ALTER/LILY: Most of these are Alters, which in Fate lore is a dark persona of the character. Likewise, Lily is the light persona. See Alter vs. (Alter) above.

HOLIDAYS: Only Halloween and Christmas are represented with special Servants. While Halloween is easy enough, I’m having trouble telling whether to use the word Christmas or Santa as part of the qualifier. On one hand, we have Santa_Alter, Altera_the_Santa (which is her official name due to it being a pun on Attila the Hun, see Various Oddities below), Florence_Nightingale_Santa, and Quetzalcoatl_Santa/Samba (a weird case on its own, see below). On the other hand, we have Helena_Blavatsky_(Christmas)_(Fate). Ugh…

SWIMSUIT: Replace a Holiday qualifer with the word Swimsuit. Otherwise, it’s the same function in the word ordering.

SPECIAL: I just use this word as a placeholder for Servants who are depicted in a different class for no discernible reason, like astolfo_(saber)_(fate) or leonardo_da_vinci_(rider)_(fate).

CLASS: The class the character is summoned in.

Since this is no doubt the most ambiguous aspect that FGO has generated from its mad pursuit for profits, I decided to present multiple options for a character to see what would work best:

  • Abigail_williams_(fate/grand_order) -> abigail_williams_(foreigner)_(fate) OR abigail_williams_(fate)
  • Anne_bonny_(fate/grand_order) -> anne_bonny_(rider)_(fate) OR anne_bonny_(fate)
  • Astolfo_(fate) -> astolfo_(rider)_(fate) (to fit with astolfo_(saber)_(fate)) OR leave this one alone?
  • BB_(fate/extra_ccc) -> bb_(mooncancer)_(fate) (different from bb_(swimsuit_mooncancer)_(fate)) OR bb_(fate)
  • Carmilla_(fate/grand_order) -> carmilla_(assassin)_(fate) OR carmilla_(fate)
  • Florence_nightingale_(fate/grand_order) -> florence_nightingale_(berserker)_(fate) OR florence_nightingale_(fate)
  • Florence_nightingale_santa_(fate/grand_order) -> florence_nightingale_(christmas_archer)_(fate) OR florence_nightingale_(santa_archer)_(fate)
  • Frankenstein’s_monster_(fate) -> frankenstein’s_monster_(berserker)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Helena_blavatsky_(fate/grand_order) -> helena_blavatsky_(caster)_(fate) (to fit with helena_blavatsky_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)) OR helena_blavatsky_(fate)
  • Helena_blavatsky_(christmas)_(fate) -> helena_blavatsky_(christmas_rider)_(fate) OR helena_blavatsky_(santa_rider)_(fate)
  • Ibaraki_douji_(fate/grand_order) -> ibaraki_douji_(berserker)_(fate) OR ibaraki_douji_(fate)
  • Ishtar_(fate/grand_order) -> ishtar_(archer)_(fate) OR ishtar_(fate)
  • Jeanne_d’arc_(fate) -> jeanne_d’arc_(ruler)_(fate) (to agree with jeanne_d’arc_(swimsuit_archer)) OR leave this one alone?
  • Katsushika_hokusai_(fate/grand_order) -> katsushika_hokusai_(foreigner)_(fate) OR katsushika_hokusai_(fate)
  • Kiyohime_(fate/grand_order) -> kiyohime_(berserker)_(fate) OR kiyohime_(fate)
  • Lancelot_(fate/grand_order) -> lancelot_(saber)_(fate) OR Lancelot_(fate) (this is an especially weird case due to the spoiler-heavy contention of his appearance as Berserker in Fate/Zero, as well as the lancelot_(fate/zero) tag that covers his un-helmeted past self)
  • Leonardo_da_vinci_(fate/grand_order) -> leonardo_da_vinci_(caster)_(fate) (to fit with leonardo_da_vinci_(rider)_(fate)) OR leonardo_da_vinci_(fate)
  • Marie_antoinette_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(rider)_(fate) OR marie_antoinette_(fate)
  • Mary_read_(fate/grand_order) -> mary_read_(rider)_(fate) OR mary_read_(fate)
  • Medb_(fate/grand_order) -> medb_(rider)_(fate) OR medb_(fate)
  • Meltryllis -> meltryllis_(alter_ego)_(fate) OR meltryllis_(fate)
  • Minamoto_no_raikou_(fate/grand_order) -> minamoto_no_raikou_(berserker)_(fate) OR minamoto_no_raikou_(fate)
  • Miyamoto_musashi_(fate/grand_order) -> miyamoto_musashi_(saber)_(fate) OR miyamoto_musashi_(fate)
  • Mordred_(fate) -> mordred_(saber)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Murasaki_shikibu_(fate) -> murasaki_shikibu_(caster)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Mysterious_heroine_xx_(foreigner) -> mysterious_heroine_xx OR mysterious_heroine_xx_(swimsuit_foreigner) OR leave this one alone?
  • Nero_claudius_(fate) -> nero_claudius_(saber)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Nitocris_(fate/grand_order) -> nitocris_(caster)_(fate) OR nitocris_(fate)
  • Oda_nobunaga_(fate) -> oda_nobunaga_(archer)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Okita_souji_(fate) -> okita_souji_(saber)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Orion_(fate/grand_order) -> orion_(fate) OR orion_(bear)_(fate) (since orion_(super_archer)_(fate) is the tag for his human form)
  • Osakabe-hime_(fate/grand_order) -> osakabe-hime_(assassin)_(fate) OR osakabe-hime_(fate)
  • Quetzalcoatl_(fate/grand_order) -> quetzalcoatl_(rider)_(fate) OR quetzalcoatl_(fate)
  • Quetzalcoatl_(samba_santa)_(fate) -> quetzalcoatl_(santa/samba)_(fate) (the official source (https://www.kindpng.com/imgv/hRxiJoT_fate-grand-order-quetzalcoatl-santa-quetzalcoatl-fgo-ruler/) uses a slash between Santa and Samba instead of a space)
  • Saint_martha -> saint_martha_(rider)_(fate) (to fit with saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate)) OR martha_(rider)_(fate) OR saint_martha_(fate) OR martha_(fate)
  • Sakata_kintoki_(fate/grand_order) -> sakata_kintoki_(berserker)_(fate) (to fit with sakata_kintoki_(rider)_(fate)) OR sakata_kintoki_(fate)
  • Santa_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(christmas_rider_alter) OR artoria_pendragon_(alter_christmas_rider) OR artoria_pendragon_(santa_alter_rider) OR artoria_pendragon_(alter_santa_rider) OR artoria_pendragon_(santa_rider_alter), etc., etc., etc. (this was the absolute worst to figure out a proper qualifer for)
  • Scathach_(fate/grand_order) -> scathach_(lancer)_(fate) OR scathach_(fate)
  • Shuten_douji_(fate/grand_order) -> shuten_douji_(assassin)_(fate) (to fit with shuten_douji_(halloween_caster)_(fate)) OR shuten_douji_(fate)
  • Tamamo_no_mae_(fate) -> Tamamo_no_mae_(caster)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Tomoe_gozen_(fate/grand_order) -> tomoe_gozen_(archer)_(fate) OR tomoe_gozen_(fate)
  • Ushiwakamaru_(fate/grand_order) -> ushiwakamaru_(rider)_(fate) OR ushiwakamaru_(fate)

LORD EL-MELLOI II CASE FILES
Some of the characters from Case Files use the *_(lord_el-melloi_ii_case_files) qualifier instead of anything related to *_(fate). I’m not sure which way the qualifiers should go for these characters.

  • Add_(lord_el-melloi_ii) -> add_(fate) OR add_(lord_el-melloi_ii_case_files)
  • Faker_(lord_el-melloi_ii_case_files) -> faker_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Flueger -> flueger_(fate) OR flueger_(lord_el-melloi_ii_case_files)
  • Gray_(lord_el-melloi_ii) -> gray_(fate) OR gray_(lord_el-melloi_ii_case_files)
  • Trimmau -> trimmau_(fate) OR trimmau_(lord_el-melloi_ii_case_files)

SAME NAME, DIFFERENT PORTRAYALS
Several cases where a character or item has more than one portrayal throughout the franchise. A basic *_(fate) qualifier is not going to work for these instances.

  • Excalibur -> excalibur_(fate/stay_night) VS. excalibur_(fate/prototype)
  • Gilgamesh -> gilgamesh_(fate/stay_night) VS. Archer_(fate/prototype) -> gilgamesh_(fate/prototype)
  • Lancer -> Cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate/stay_night) OR cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate) VS. cu_chulainn_(fate/prototype) (already implicated under the cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all) tag)
  • Merlin_(fate) -> merlin_(fate/stay_night) VS. merlin_(fate/prototype)
  • Fionn_mac_cumhaill_(fate/zero) VS. fionn_mac_cumhaill_(fate/grand_order) (already defined in both wikis)
  • Berserker_(fate/strange_fake) -> jack_the_ripper_(fate/strange_fake) VS. jack_the_ripper_(fate/apocrypha)
  • Vlad_iii_(fate/extra) VS. Vlad_iii_(fate/apocrypha) (already defined in both wikis)
  • Saver (Arthur Pendragon prototype, named after a typo of Saber) VS. Saver_(fate/extra)
  • Mordred_(fate) VS. mordred_(fate/prototype) (is the Fate/Proto version even an official character, or a hypothetical fanmade one?)

VARIOUS ODDITIES
Strange cases I came across that didn’t fit in the other categories.

  • Altera_the_santa -> Altera_the_san(ta) OR leave this one alone? (it’s supposed to be a pun on Attila the Hun)
  • Archer’s_master_(fate/prototype) (only Master in whole list w/o a proper name, which means giving him just the *_(fate) qualifier would make it too vague)
  • Artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_ruler) (only one of all the Artoria variants with the *_(fate) qualifier. Do the other ones need it, or should it removed from this one?)
  • Consort_yu_(fate) and yu_miaoyi_(swimsuit_lancer) (alternate readings of the same name, but Consort Yu is the Assassin variant while Yu_Miaoyi is the Lancer variant; discussed previously in topic #17271)
  • Imperial_head_guard_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(old_assassin)_(fate)
    • Li_shuwen_(fate) -> li_shuwen_(young_assassin)_(fate)
    • Li_shuwen_(koha-ace) -> li_shuwen_(old_lancer)_(fate)
    • Li_shuwen_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(young_lancer)_(fate)
  • Imaginary_around -> matou_sakura_(imaginary_around) (move Craft Essence tag to a new chartag?)
  • Irisviel_von_einzbern_(caster) -> irisviel_von_einzbern_(caster)_(fate) OR leave this one alone?
  • Karin_(fate/requiem) -> karin_(fate) (too plain of a qualifier?)
  • King_hassan_(fate/grand_order) -> king_hassan_(fate) OR first_hassan_(fate) (First Hassan is the name used in the English version)
  • Leonidas_(fate/grand_order) -> leonidas_i_(fate) OR leonidas_(fate) (to make it fit with richard_i_(fate))
  • Limited/zero_over -> sengo_muramasa_(fate) (nuke the LZO tag due to redundancy and move everything to Sengo Muramasa?)
  • Marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order) (where does this character come from anyway? The only sources I see is that she was found from a datamine)
  • Mecha_eli-chan -> mecha_eli-chan_(fate)
  • Mecha_eli-chan_mk.ii -> mecha_eli-chan_mk.ii_(fate)
  • Oda_kippoushi_(fate) + oda_nobunaga_(maou_avenger)_(fate) implied to oda_nobunaga_(avenger)_(fate) umbrella tag?
  • Passionlip -> passionlip_(alter_ego)_(fate) OR passionlip_(fate) (a singular name with no qualifier, like Meltryllis)
  • Saint_george_(fate/grand_order) -> saint_george_(fate) OR georgios_(fate) (Georgios is the name used in the English version)
  • Tohsaka_rin_(lancer) -> ??? (leave this one alone?)
  • Formalcraft -> tohsaka_rin_(formalcraft) (move Craft Essence tag to a new chartag?)
  • Utsumi_erise -> utsumi_erice (any official source that uses the C spelling in her name?)
  • Violet_(fate/extra_ccc) -> violet_(fate)

I think that’s everything I can cover for now.

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First of all, i have to congratulate you on the scale of this work.
That aside, preliminary thoughts:

Lancer -> cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate) (vs. cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate) or cu_chulainn_alter_(fate))

Cu chulainn has (or should have?) a prototype tag for it's prototype version, so i don't find it wise to leave it like that.

I also would like to point out that formalcraft depicts the edelfelt sisters from Fate/HA. Similarly, imaginary around comes from Sakura's design during the final fight from the same game.

While we're on the matter of craft essences, you haven't covered bb shot! or the likes, which i think need to be present in this rework too.

Ideally i feel like there should be a Danbooru-wide standard, encompassing all Gacha games.

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Astolfo

Okay so I'm not going to go again over why I feel it's way too incredibly much to tag every single form as a separate character, so here's some thoughts on this project:

SINGULAR CLASS NAME TAGS

If I remember correctly, during the last huge Fate retagging project, the singular class tags were left as-is due to Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero being among the few Fate works where true names aren't revealed off the bat and are kept hidden so they're somewhat spoiler-y in nature, particularly so for characters like Archer in SN and Berserker in Zero.
Some of them (like Diarmuid) aren't a heavy spoiler in practice but remain a "spoiler" because they're revealed late during the series, I suppose. I don't feel strongly one way or the other about renaming the "light spoilers" tags but I definitely am against changing F/SN's Archer or F/Z's Berserker to true names, yeah.

That said, if we do have to change them:

Assassin_(fate/strange_fake) -> ???
Rider -> medusa_(rider)_(fate) (vs. medusa_(lancer)_(fate) or medusa_(lancer_alter)_(fate))
Caster_lily -> medea_(caster_lily)_(fate)
Caster_(fate/zero) -> gilles_de_rais_(caster)_(fate)

Saber -> artoria_pendragon_(saber)
Saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_alter) OR artoria_pendragon_(alter_saber) OR artoria_pendragon_alter_(saber)
Saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_lily) OR artoria_pendragon_(lily_saber) OR artoria_pendragon_lily_(saber)

In order:
-Wiki says "she is given the monikers of No Name Assassin and Beautiful Assassin" so we could go with one of these if we want to drop the single class name tag.
-I'd say just medusa_(fate), vs medusa_(lancer)_(fate) to go with the reasoning I describe in more detail below. Medusa Lancer isn't an Alter (and isn't a Lily either apparently).
-Medea_(lily)_(fate)
-.. Some of these cases, like Gilles de Rais or Medusa, do kind of highlight why having a franchise qualifier _(fate/zero) wouldn't be a bad thing necessarily... Man what a mess lol.

-These three if we have to rename them, I would say also for the reasons I describe below:
Artoria_pendragon_(fate)
Artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(fate)
Artoria_pendragon_(lily)_(fate)

ALTER VS. (ALTER)

It's almost invariably (Alter) even in game in the English version, with very few exceptions otherwise (usually some holiday versions). The same thing applies for Lily.

Looking at it right now, I have: Jeanne d'Arc (Alter), Okita Souji (Alter), Altria Pendragon (Alter) (twice, for Saber and Lancer), Cu Chullain (Alter), Atalanta (Alter), all of which are regular characters. The only characters I have which go against the brackets convention are Jalter Santa Lily and Artoria Santa Alter, both of which are holiday versions.

DEFAULT FORM VS. SWIMSUIT/HOLIDAY/SPECIAL FORMS

Okay so firstly,
I feel it's way too much to append class name in the tag for default forms. I don't think there's a reason for okita_souji_(fate) to become okita_souji_(saber)_(fate) because Saber is the default/base form of the character, and thus the base "Okita Souji (Fate)" tag logically applies to that form.
Leave the regular version alone, with no additional qualifiers or tags, and although my reservations about tagging every single special form separately remain regardless, tag the separate forms appropriately.
For that purpose, I also treat the original "Alter" and "Lily" version of a character as an essentially separate character, unlike holiday versions, which means no class qualifiers and so on.

Alter is in most cases a qualifier in brackets applying to the entirety of the entity that was altered. Usually it's just after the name, but there are some fringe cases I'll describe below where I would put (alter) after a class name.

Lily, in turn, is a qualifier in much the same way about the entire character including its altered aspect and so on and so forth, so it should be after Alter at the very least - unless, somehow, the character we are talking about is a Lily version that has then been Altered. Semantics but an important distinction I suppose, not that the case has ever come up yet.

As far as the order in which to put the qualifiers, I think the most optimal would be to do something like:

name_(alter)_(lily)_(swimsuit/holiday/special_class)_(fate)

OR if we ever need to cover some of the oddities I mentioned just above:
name_(lily)_(alter)_(swimsuit/holiday/special_class)_(fate)
name_(swimsuit/holiday/special_class)_(alter)_(fate)
name_(swimsuit/holiday/special_class)_(alter)_(lily)_(fate)

Essentially: every qualifier except _(fate) is optional, and the order in which to put them logically depends on what the character actually is. The class qualifier is only a necessity for holiday versions, and characters that are just Alter/Lily don't need a class tag. Vanilla characters don't need a class tag either.
And while I doubt we'll ever run into Alters of specifically the swimsuit version of a character, if that ever happened then Alter would be after swimsuit_class, if the Alter is of specifically a Lily character then Alter goes after Lily, if the Alter is of a specific class version then Alter goes after the class, etc etc.
Which would result in things like:

astolfo_(fate)
astolfo_(saber)_(fate)
medb_(fate)
medb_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate)
jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(fate)
I guess under my model it'd be gilles_de_rais_(fate) and gilles_de_rais_(saber)_(fate) by virtue of Caster version appearing first.

And to cover some fringe cases such as Artoria Lancer and her Alter version, or some of the headache examples brought up in OP:
artoria_pendragon_(lancer)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(lancer)_(alter)_(fate)
atoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_rider_alter) → artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate)
jeanne_d’arc_(alter_swimsuit_berserker) → jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(swimsuit_berserker)_(fate)

And some imaginary cases to further describe this system:
kiyohime_(alter)_(fate) (No class tag because there's no need for a class qualifier for "OG Kiyohime Alter")
okita_souji_(alter)_(lily)_(fate) (If Okita Alter got a Lily for some reason)
okita_souji_(alter)_(lily)_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate) (... If Okita Alter Lily got a swimsuit version FOR SOME REASON)

I think this is the easiest and most straightforward way to have a logical standard to apply, albeit it can result in slightly tedious tags; but, while artoria_pendragon_(lancer)_(alter)_(fate) is a bit more annoying than artoria_pendragon_(lancer_alter)_(fate), it being standardised is better overall; alternatively we could go with a "combine the brackets" approach and put everything in the same brackets but that's a bit more.. messy, I feel.
I think the only possible point of confusion in such a system is characters that have alternate versions (Medusa, Gilles, etc) that are neither Alter, nor Lily, nor holiday versions. But for these, I would say the default/first form gets the base name tag and the subsequent versions get a class tag.

That said, there are also cases where Alter isn't in brackets and the naming convention goes out the window in the game itself, such as Jeanne d'Arc Alter Santa Lily, Artoria Pendragon (Santa Alter) or Altera The Santa - for those cases where the game gives a character a different name or convention, I'd simply stick with the name the game gives us and a _(fate) at the end, rather than try to adapt it to our convention. It's the name the game gives them, so it's what we should stick with.

jeanne_d'arc_alter_santa_lily_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(santa_alter)_(fate)
altera_the_san(ta)_(fate)

If we don't stick with their given names and standardise them, however, then they'd be:
jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(lily)_(santa_lancer)_(fate)
artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(santa_rider)_(fate)
altera_(santa_archer)_(fate)

Another oddity, but following that logic, some characters like okita souji (swimsuit assassin) (fate) are known under a specific name in game (in her case it's Okita J. Souji). Under the above model, her tag should reflect that and be named okita_j._souji_(fate), perhaps. Similarly, Mysterious_heroine_xx should just be Mysterious_heroine_xx without a class tag.

Also regarding Artorias not having the Fate qualifier - I would say if we're renaming every single tag of the franchise to have the qualifier we might as well have it on Artoria too for consistency's sake.

I’m having trouble telling whether to use the word Christmas or Santa as part of the qualifier.

Well, some characters are a Santa version, and Santa is literally in their name in game (Jeanne d'Arc Alter Santa Lily, Artoria Pendragon (Santa Alter)) but others like Helena aren't a Santa version, they're just Christmas themed. So it depends on what they are in game I suppose. Santa characters are generally the character given for free during the event.

ALTER/LILY: Most of these are Alters, which in Fate lore is a dark persona of the character. Likewise, Lily is the light persona

A little side detail, but lilies aren't light personas but rather they're younger versions. Saber Lily is Saber before getting Excalibur and becoming king and all that, Jalter Santa Lily is literally aged down Jalter, etc. That said, it's not entirely consistent either, seeing as characters like Medusa (Lancer) are pretty much a child version yet do not have the Lily qualifier.

VARIOUS ODDITIES

God do we really need to have a chartag for even the craft essence costumes of a character god why

-About Marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order)
She was in a cutscene in an event iirc.

-About Limited/zero_over -> sengo_muramasa_(fate)
Pseudo servants are another can of worms thanks fgo. Currently, they are simply tagged as who they appear to be (Sima Yi images are just tagged Reines, Zhuge Liang images are just tagged Waver, etc.).. except when they are not, what with Ereshkigal and Ishtar having their own tags.
I think going about it logically, we can change Muramasa to have his own tag, whereas Zhuge and Sima aren't very visually distinct from Waver and Reines so it's not too important.

Side notes:

-One tag I noticed missing in this entire post was child_gilgamesh which I guess can just be changed to child_gilgamesh_(fate). F/GO calls him "Gilgamesh (Child)" but I think he is from F/HA first where he is referred to as 子ギル (Ko-gil, kid-gil/child-gil).

... Really, most of our tagging problems come from the blatant recycling of 2-3 popular characters and it wouldn't be nearly this much of a pain in the ass if we didn't have 50 different Artorias and 28 Jeannes.
Anyway sorry if this is messy I'm not used to typing up a lot of things and it's kind of rambly but it at least goes over the major points and suggestions I have.

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blindVigil

Astolfo said:

I feel it's way too much to append class name in the tag for default forms. I don't think there's a reason for okita_souji_(fate) to become okita_souji_(saber)_(fate) because Saber is the default/base form of the character, and thus the base "Okita Souji (Fate)" tag logically applies to that form.

I completely disagree with this. This line of reasoning assumes every single uploader/tagger is fully knowledgeable of Fate characters and which forms are their "default" and which are not. Every so often, I have to fix the character tags on random Fate posts depicting an alt form because, presumably, someone assumed the "character_(fate)" tag was a catch-all tag, because it's lacking any noteworthy qualifiers, and only a handful of characters have (all) tags. I even encounter this problem on characters that do have an (all) tag.

If "default" forms are left neutral while all the alts get additional qualifiers, this will continue to be a problem for new and old users who missed the discussion(s) that decided that the character's first appearance be given a completely ambiguous tag because "logically that's the way it should be."

Mordred_(fate) should be Mordred_(saber) or Mordred_(saber)_(fate)
Saber should be Artoria Pendragon_(saber) (no need for a Fate qualifier here)

This seems ridiculous to long time fans of the series, but the new FGO generation of casual fans aren't going to have any of the context for why "Altria" is just called Saber when there's a million other characters in the Saber class. And no, that does not mean we should change her tag to Altria Pendragon, that is a hill I will die on.

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Astolfo

blindVigil said:

I completely disagree with this. This line of reasoning assumes every single uploader/tagger is fully knowledgeable of Fate characters and which forms are their "default" and which are not.

That's not so much the intent as rather a will not to give the regular, default form of a character cumbersome qualifiers on their tag (because it's the normal form of a character - in that sense it's not really ambiguous, it doesn't have a qualifier because it's the base form of the character, while the others are 'alternate' forms, and thus have qualifiers to differentiate them). That said, to know the "normal" form of a character implies having knowledge of the franchise, so I see the merits of having a qualifier even for the 'base' character, and if that's the way we decide to go, the model I proposed does support that.

That said, class qualifiers won't necessarily do much to help non-fans tag characters appropriately either. Take something like post #4068806 or post #4068791 and ask a complete non-fan with zero knowledge of Fate or its characters to tag it as either Rider or Saber Astolfo; you pretty much HAVE to either have prior knowledge or check both tags regardless to see which looks like what. Or, fanart that depicts characters in alternate costumes, you could assume that post count might indicate which tag is the normal character, but it would not necessarily be the right choice because it could also be a variant in an alternate costume...

Bottom line is that in many cases tagging Fate is going to be a pain in the ass for non-fans no matter whether we add a qualifier to the base character or not imo, outside of the obvious variants like swimsuits and stuff that is.

On another note, if you give a class qualifier even to base forms, it would mean that characters like Jalter and Salter, assuming we consider them as 'base forms' since they are separate characters, then become jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(avenger)_(fate), or artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(saber)_(fate) to differentiate with their respective variants. Fringe cases, admittedly, there aren't that many characters with so many variants, but still. It'll probably only grow from here on out.
Or... okita_souji_(alter)_(alter-ego)_(fate)

Saber should be Artoria Pendragon_(saber) (no need for a Fate qualifier here)

I do still think if we're going to give a Fate qualifier to every Fate character it seems a bit counter-intuitive not to have one for Artoria as well. also yes pls no altria
As for the new casual fans, I want to say lack of knowledge can be made up for by actually looking into the franchise, but it is also a fair argument for the sake of usability.

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Benit149

All right, I've taken a break... is what I would say, but I actually spent yesterday and today drafting what I call the Guide to Gacha Game Tagging since it's evident that there is a growing demand for standardizing how gacha game characters should be tagged. If anyone is interested in seeing what I came up with so far, I'll post it in a new thread for scrutinizing and ironing out the finer details. On a related note, I realized that in Microsoft Word 2019, quotation and apostrophe marks seem to be different from how they're done in Danbooru's text boxes, which directly affects CSS formatting. I had to go into the text box and manually change all of the quotations and apostrophes in order for the coding to work.

Mysterious Uploader said:
First of all, i have to congratulate you on the scale of this work.

@Mysterious_Uploader Thank you. But I'm afraid this is only the tip of the iceberg into how deep this problem runs.

Cu chulainn has (or should have?) a prototype tag for it's prototype version, so i don't find it wise to leave it like that.

We have cu_chulainn_(fate/prototype) currently implicated to cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all), which also encompasses the three variants of FSN Cu (the one voiced by Kanna Nobutoshi, while Cu Proto is voiced by Nakai Kazuya). I'm not positive if this is correct because the two Cu Chulainns could fall under the Same Name, Different Portrayals section. I believe the implication exists for several reasons:

  • They have the same name
  • They're from the same franchise
  • They're the same gender (which is why we don't have arthur_pendragon_(fate) implied to artoria_pendragon_(all))
  • They look strikingly similar, and likewise have similar skills

Even so, Cu Prototype is fundamentally NOT the same character as Cu FSN. If that's the case, should he be removed from the cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all) umbrella tag?

I also would like to point out that formalcraft depicts the edelfelt sisters from Fate/HA. Similarly, imaginary around comes from Sakura's design during the final fight from the same game.

I see. Even I'm an example of how even Fate fans don't fully understand the Fate franchise. :/

But from looking at official images of F/HA, I can see that Rin's Edelfelt Sister design is not entirely the same as her Formalcraft design. See the F/HA design (HERE) and compare to the CE design (HERE ). Likewise, see Sakura's costume for F/HA's final battle (HERE) and what she wears as her battle costume in Fate/Tiger Colosseum (HERE ), and compare it to the Imaginary Around CE (HERE ). Just looking at these character designs and how the CEs are embellished versions of the F/HA designs is headache-inducing enough as it is. I simply cannot tell if these designs should be treated separately, or bunched together under umbrella tags for Rin and Sakura. One thing I can say for sure is that I am rather iffy about the current naming convention for Imaginary Around and Formalcraft, yet other folks seem insistent on keeping them the way they are.

While we're on the matter of craft essences, you haven't covered bb shot! or the likes, which i think need to be present in this rework too.

As I wrote in BB Shot!'s wiki, it is simultaneously a CE and the costume she wears for her Noble Phantasm (a.k.a. her ultimate attack). This is another instance like how Astolfo's costume Memories at Trifas is seen in Fate/Apocrypha, then carried over to FGO as both a CE and a Spiritron Dress. Alas, I think we're diving too deeply into reworking CEs as chartags when this thread is supposed to be for fixing existing qualifiers. Once the qualifiers are fixed, then we can expand into CEs like BB Shot!, so that's why I didn't bring it up in the OP.

Astolfo said:
If I remember correctly, during the last huge Fate retagging project, the singular class tags were left as-is due to Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero being among the few Fate works where true names aren't revealed off the bat and are kept hidden so they're somewhat spoiler-y in nature, particularly so for characters like Archer in SN and Berserker in Zero.
Some of them (like Diarmuid) aren't a heavy spoiler in practice but remain a "spoiler" because they're revealed late during the series, I suppose. I don't feel strongly one way or the other about renaming the "light spoilers" tags but I definitely am against changing F/SN's Archer or F/Z's Berserker to true names, yeah.

@Astolfo That was my assumption, since when the franchise was fresh and brand new in the mid-2000s, Type-Moon wanted to keep the Servants' real names a surprise, maybe as some way to engage readers by trying to figure out who these characters are. Almost 15 years later though, no one really gives a fuck anymore for any character besides F/SN Archer and F/Z Berserker. Even FGO ignores this, but that's to be expected when you get mobile game developers involved in these kinds of franchises - late-arrival spoilers are just par for the course to them. In that case, at least Diarmuid can be adjusted so that he would be:

lancer_(fate/zero) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(lancer)_(fate) OR diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate) (depending on what we do with his 'default' variant)
diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate/grand_order) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(saber)_(fate)

Berserker_(fate/zero) is perfectly fine as he is. As for Archer, he can easily be fixed to archer_(fate), since he appears in so many Fate titles that it would be silly to use archer_(fate/stay_night).

Assassin_(fate/strange_fake) -> ???

"she is given the monikers of No Name Assassin and Beautiful Assassin" so we could go with one of these if we want to drop the single class name tag.

So would we go with something like beautiful_assassin_(fate) as her tag? I think it would be easier to type than no_name_assassin_(fate). Or is it so vague that she should be left as assassin_(fate/strange_fake) since she doesn't really have an official name to refer her to?

Medusa Lancer isn't an Alter (and isn't a Lily either apparently).

There is a Medusa Lancer Alter tag, specifying her appearance during the anime Fate/Grand Order -First Order-. In that vein, we can throw Archer Alter into this discussion. She is separate from Medusa Lancer, who appears during the Babylonia scenario. To be sure if both characters existed in the game, I reviewed the Singularity F scenario and saw that Medusa is not depicted as a uniquely-designed Lancer, but as her Rider self in a black silhouette, while Archer is just himself in the same silhouette (HERE - skip ahead to around 51:40 for Medusa' super-brief appearance, and to 1:06:25 for Archer's). They basically changed the events of the game for the anime as an excuse to give Medusa a sexy new costume and make Archer an edgelord, which means that we're dealing with two anime-exclusive characters.

If you already knew that and are trying to say that Medusa Lancer Alter and Archer Alter are not specifically called Alters in the franchise, then I can say you're right about that with Medusa. We see HERE and HERE that she is indeed just called Medusa Lancer. The 'Alter' part of her name was simply added by fans to tell her apart from Babylonia's Medusa Lancer. As for Archer, I couldn't find any official sources of his name.

Even so, how else are Danbooru taggers going to tell them apart? By making tags like medusa_(fate/grand_order_-first_order-) and archer_(fate/grand_order_-first_order-)? As far as Fate lore goes, if a character is corrupted, then they're considered an Alter by default. Of course, not everyone is going to know that, so... *bashes head against a wall*

Some of these cases, like Gilles de Rais or Medusa, do kind of highlight why having a franchise qualifier (like fate/zero) wouldn't be a bad thing necessarily... Man what a mess lol.

Well, the goal is to clean things up once and for all and eliminate as many of the unnecessary copyright qualifiers as possible. If gilles_de_rais_(fate/zero) was used on Caster variant while his Saber variant used gilles_de_rais_(fate), that simply won't help things at all. People will think, "Oh, gilles_de_rais_(fate) is his umbrella tag," and use it incorrectly. That's why I proposed breaking up Gilles like this:

gilles_de_rais_(fate) OR gilles_de_rais_(caster)_(fate) (this Gilles came first, so it's considered his 'default')
gilles_de_rais_(saber)_(fate)

Medea_(lily)_(fate) (instead of medea_(caster_lily)_(fate)

That's a good point with Medea. Although her appearance changes, she's still in the same class, so using *_(caster_lily) would be redundant when *_(lily) is sufficient enough.

It's almost invariably (Alter) even in game in the English version, with very few exceptions otherwise (usually some holiday versions). The same thing applies for Lily.

Well, let's review how Alter/Lily are treated in the English version. I'm listing these characters according to the Servant ID number.

  • Artoria Pendragon (Alter) (HERE)
  • Artoria Pendragon (Lily) (HERE)
  • Medea (Lily) (HERE)
  • Artoria Pendragon (Santa Alter) (HERE)
  • Artoria Pendragon (Alter) (Lancer) (HERE)
  • Cu Chulainn (Alter) (HERE)
  • Jeanne D'Arc (Alter) (HERE)
  • Jeanne D'Arc Alter Santa Lily (HERE)
  • Mysterious Heroine X (Alter) (HERE)
  • Emiya (Alter) (HERE)
  • Artoria Pendragon (Alter) (Rider) (HERE - I can't find a screenshot of her status screen, but I have her in my FGO game and it is written as Artoria Pendragon Alter (Rider))
  • Atalante (Alter) (HERE)
  • Okita Souji (Alter) (HERE)
  • Jeanne D'Arc Alter (Berserker) (HERE and HERE - again, couldn't find a screenshot of her status screen, but I also have her in my game and it is written as Jeanne d'Arc Alter (Berserker))

Arjuna (Alter) has not been released in the English version yet, so a Japanese screenshot will have to suffice (HERE) .

Terribly sorry, but I think I need to continue this tomorrow. It's becoming apparent that I need to handle this discussion in small doses.

TO BE CONTINUED...

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All right, I've taken a break... is what I would say, but I actually spent yesterday and today drafting what I call the Guide to Gacha Game Tagging since it's evident that there is a growing demand for standardizing how gacha game characters should be tagged.

Go for it i'd say.

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Benit149

Mysterious_Uploader said:

Go for it i'd say.

I'd like to see if there are others who'd like to see it rather than just the same one or two people.

Astolfo said:

I feel it's way too much to append class name in the tag for default forms. I don't think there's a reason for okita_souji_(fate) to become okita_souji_(saber)_(fate) because Saber is the default/base form of the character, and thus the base "Okita Souji (Fate)" tag logically applies to that form. Leave the regular version alone, with no additional qualifiers or tags, and tag the separate forms appropriately.

It probably would be wise to update the wikis for a character's debut/default form to accommodate this, such as stating, "This is considered to be (CHARACTER)'s default form that they debuted in. See WIKI_X, WIKI_Y, and WIKI_Z for their other forms," but that's probably the safest path to go with.

As far as the order in which to put the qualifiers, I think the most optimal would be to do something like:

name_(alter)_(lily)_(swimsuit/holiday/special_class)_(fate)

That was my thought too. It's the order (minus the Fate-exclusive Alter/Lily segments) I proposed for holiday variants of characters in my tentative gacha game tagging guide. As far as the Alter/Lily segments go, I prefer the alphabetical order, which means that Alter comes before Lily, should we ever have a freakishly fringe holiday variant that falls under both. Jeanne D'Arc Alter Santa Lily has her own unique naming convention, and is even made fun of in the game itself, so that can be left alone. If she wasn't a Christmas variant though, she would theoretically be jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(lily)_(fate). I'm praying this never happens.

I think the only possible point of confusion in such a system is characters that have alternate versions (Medusa, Gilles, etc) that are neither Alter, nor Lily, nor holiday versions. But for these, I would say the default/first form gets the base name tag and the subsequent versions get a class tag.

Right. Aside from holidays, there are characters who switch over to a different class either for story reasons, or for no discernible purpose other than to add another character to roll for. There is no holiday or festival attached to them - it's just, "Here's a random class change. Have fun pulling them." Going back to the official Servant list, and I'm excluding any Artorias from here because we've talked about her to death, those characters would be:

Cu Chulainn - Caster & Alter/Berserker
Tamamo Cat - Berserker (a fringe case where her name is changed in-game, and her tag is already tamamo_cat_(fate), so I left it alone)
Sakata Kintoki - Rider
Lancelot - Saber (this is an incredibly weird case due to the spoiler-y nature of his Berserker self, and requires some fine-tuning)
Gilgamesh - Caster
Medusa - Lancer
Atalanta - Alter/Berserker
Okita Souji - Alter/Alter Ego
Scathach Skadi - Caster (same as with Tamamo Cat)
Diarmuid Ua Duibhne - Saber
Li Shuwen - old man Assassin (compared to his younger Lancer self)
Arjuna - Alter/Berserker
Oda Nobunaga - Avenger
Leonardo Da Vinci - Rider
Ishtar - Avenger
Astolfo - Saber

In that case, these characters can get a class qualifier added to them. Trouble is, some of them already do, like gilgamesh_(caster)_(fate) or astolfo_(saber)_(fate). Meanwhile, others do not, like cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) or diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate/grand_order). This alone has caused me more than enough grief, and I'm getting sick of it.

A little side detail, but lilies aren't light personas but rather they're younger versions. Saber Lily is Saber before getting Excalibur and becoming king and all that, Jalter Santa Lily is literally aged down Jalter, etc. That said, it's not entirely consistent either, seeing as characters like Medusa (Lancer) are pretty much a child version yet do not have the Lily qualifier.

Forgot about Lily characters tending to be younger versions of a character. Like you said though, not even DW is consistent with this, like with Medusa Lancer, young Fergus mac Roich, Child Gilgamesh, etc. I guess it's not as heavily explored and understood as with Alters, although Sesshouin Kiara Lily is the latest addition, so who knows.

-About Marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order)
She was in a cutscene in an event iirc.

Do you know which one? I'd like to look it up on YouTube.

-About Limited/zero_over -> sengo_muramasa_(fate)
Pseudo servants are another can of worms. Currently, they are simply tagged as who they appear to be (Sima Yi images are just tagged Reines, Zhuge Liang images are just tagged Waver, etc.).. except when they are not, what with Ereshkigal and Ishtar having their own tags.
I think going about it logically, we can change Muramasa to have his own tag, whereas Zhuge and Sima aren't very visually distinct from Waver and Reines so it's not too important.

Yeah, I know we don't use Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi tags because those are just Lord El-Melloi II and Reines without any changes to their designs whatsoever. On the other hand, LZO/Sengo Muramasa is a variant of Emiya Shirou that has never been seen before anywhere else (to my knowledge anyway!) until the CE came out early in FGO's life cycle. The argument used for Rin and Sakura's CE designs being tweaks of their F/HA designs does not work here. Trouble is that the name Limited/Zero Over came well before DW decided to fuck everything up and say, "NVM, he's actually Sengo Muramasa AKA Pseudo-Servant Shirou, trolololol". Does this mean we merge Sengo Muramasa into the LZO tag because the CE name came first, or do we prioritize the character name? There's always the probability that he'll be released as a playable character too.

-One tag I noticed missing in this entire post was child_gilgamesh which I guess can just be changed to child_gilgamesh_(fate). F/GO calls him "Gilgamesh (Child)" but I think he is from F/HA first where he is referred to as 子ギル (Ko-gil, kid-gil/child-gil).

I kinda, sorta left him out on purpose because I figured child_gilgamesh was explanatory enough, but he can always be given the *_(fate) qualifier.

... Really, most of our tagging problems come from the blatant recycling of 2-3 popular characters and it wouldn't be nearly this much of a pain in the ass if we didn't have 50 different Artorias and 28 Jeannes. Anyway sorry if this is messy I'm not used to typing up a lot of things and it's kind of rambly but it at least goes over the major points and suggestions I have.

Don't worry about it. I think a lot of what you said confirms my own suspicions.

blindVigil said:

I completely disagree with this. This line of reasoning assumes every single uploader/tagger is fully knowledgeable of Fate characters and which forms are their "default" and which are not. Every so often, I have to fix the character tags on random Fate posts depicting an alt form because, presumably, someone assumed the "character_(fate)" tag was a catch-all tag, because it's lacking any noteworthy qualifiers, and only a handful of characters have (all) tags. I even encounter this problem on characters that do have an (all) tag.

If "default" forms are left neutral while all the alts get additional qualifiers, this will continue to be a problem for new and old users who missed the discussion(s) that decided that the character's first appearance be given a completely ambiguous tag because "logically that's the way it should be."

Mordred_(fate) should be Mordred_(saber) or Mordred_(saber)_(fate)
Saber should be Artoria Pendragon_(saber) (no need for a Fate qualifier here)

This seems ridiculous to long time fans of the series, but the new FGO generation of casual fans aren't going to have any of the context for why "Altria" is just called Saber when there's a million other characters in the Saber class.

@blindVigil As I mentioned above, there's always fixing the default form's wiki page to explain that, "Hey, this is the version that came out first in the franchise. If you want to look for a different form of theirs, go see THIS_WIKI." Don't forget that we can always rely on wikis for clarification and cross-referencing. Alas, whether or not people actually read the damn things is beyond our control, but I believe they serve as mini-guides in themselves.

And no, that does not mean we should change her tag to Altria Pendragon, that is a hill I will die on.

If my minimal Wikipedia-hopping is anything to go by, then I found this in Historicity of King Arthur:

"The origin of the name Arthur is unclear. The most widely accepted etymology is from the Roman family name Artorius, itself of obscure and contested etymology, possibly of Messapic or Etruscan origin. According to linguist and Celticist Stephan Zimmer, it is possible that Artorius has a Celtic origin, being a Latinization of the hypothetical name *Artorījos derived from the patronym *Arto-rīg-ios, meaning "Son of the Bear" or "Warrior-King". *Arto-rīg-ios is unattested, but the root *arto-rīg is the source of the Old Irish personal name Artrí. Some scholars have noted that the legendary King Arthur's name only appears as Arthur, Arthurus, or Arturus in early Latin Arthurian texts, and never as Artōrius (although the Classical Latin Artōrius became Arturius in some Vulgar Latin dialects). However, it may not refer to the origin of the name Arthur, as Artōrius would regularly become Art(h)ur when borrowed into Welsh."

Allow me to reference Tales of Berseria for a second, where Artorius Collbrande is actually derived from King Arthur's name (and he uses Arthur as a nickname). Both ToB and Tales of Zestiria use names and themes based off of the King Arthur mythos.

Take the male Artorius, change it to female, and we get Artoria. As far as I know or care, that's end of discussion.

Astolfo said:
That's not so much the intent as rather a will not to give the regular, default form of a character cumbersome qualifiers on their tag (because it's the normal form of a character - in that sense it's not really ambiguous, it doesn't have a qualifier because it's the base form of the character, while the others are 'alternate' forms, and thus have qualifiers to differentiate them). That said, to know the "normal" form of a character implies having knowledge of the franchise, so I see the merits of having a qualifier even for the 'base' character, and if that's the way we decide to go, the model I proposed does support that.

Agreed. I don't care for using class qualifiers on default characters, especially since I'm afraid we'll be disturbing one hell of a hornet's nest with folks who are used to the current system and/or don't know the series very well if we mess around with it too much.

Let me switch hats for a second and pretend I'm a non-fan. If I see minamoto_no_raikou_(berserker)_(fate) and minamoto_no_raikou_(swimsuit_lancer)_(fate), and I have absolutely ZERO knowledge of the entire franchise yet I want to upload an image featuring her, how am I supposed to know which one is the 'default' on first glance? If I just see minamoto_no_raikou_(fate), then it's much easier to tell that this is the tag referring to her debut form because there are no special qualifiers added, and the Swimsuit Lancer tag is then obviously treated as a special variant. Furthermore, am I going to care what her default form's class is? Most likely not, so why should I go through the trouble of adding it for fans' sake?

The main reason I proposed class qualifiers was to play devil's advocate for those who support it. However, I don't like them at all.

EDIT: Let me append this by saying that I do see the necessity when we're dealing with three variants who are all in different classes, like Cu Chulainn. Then I would see the worth of:

cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate)
cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate)
cu_chulainn_(alter)_(fate)

Bottom line is that in many cases tagging Fate is going to be a pain in the ass for non-fans no matter whether we add a qualifier to the base character or not imo.

That should be the opening line to the fate (series) wiki. LOL

All right, I'm all caught up. Clearly the issue with class qualifiers needs to be smoothed out some more, but I'll review our progress so far and update the OP's BUR section with new proposed changes soon. I still would like some input into the Singular Class Name, Lord El-Melloi II Case Files, Same Name/Different Portrayals, and Various Oddities sections though.

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I'd like to see if there are others who'd like to see it rather than just the same one or two people.

That's a terrible mindset. Don't ask if you can ask, you already did the work to may as well start it up. That's how people get interested.

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Astolfo

I think we're mostly in agreement over most things so I'll only respond to these specific things:

Benit149 said:

As far as the Alter/Lily segments go, I prefer the alphabetical order, which means that Alter comes before Lily, should we ever have a freakishly fringe holiday variant that falls under both.

For the sake of being very accurate, determining whether Alter or Lily comes first is actually not as simple as alphabetical order, because "Jeanne Alter Lily" would actually be a different character in universe as "Jeanne Lily Alter". One would be "Jeanne Alter" that has been Lilified, while one would be "Jeanne Lily" that has been Alterified.

... As you said, I pray we never encounter such cases, but you never know with FGO. Currently the only character that fits both criteria is Jalter Santa Lily which has her own naming convention we can stick with. If it comes down to it and such a character actually shows up, either it'd have its own name convention again, or we can just figure out the tag when it comes down to it.

Do you know which one? I'd like to look it up on YouTube.

To my knowledge it was part of the Fate/Requiem event on JP server, though I couldn't tell you which cutscene exactly or in what manner.

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blindVigil

Benit149 said:

As I mentioned above, there's always fixing the default form's wiki page to explain that, "Hey, this is the version that came out first in the franchise. If you want to look for a different form of theirs, go see THIS_WIKI." Don't forget that we can always rely on wikis for clarification and cross-referencing. Alas, whether or not people actually read the damn things is beyond our control, but I believe they serve as mini-guides in themselves.

Of course, we can and should do that, I'm not suggesting otherwise. But, it's a well known fact I think that many users, veterans included, misuse tags all the time because they make a reasonable conclusion based on just a tag's name, only for it to be intended for something completely different. Tag names being clear and accurate to their intended use is important.

Sure, we can say, "It's just common sense that the tag without any qualifiers is intended for the default version of a character and nothing else" but we don't even do that for other copyrights. I'm not sure, but I think Fate is the odd one out, here. Honkai (series), at least last I checked, uses the default character tag for all depictions of a particular character. All Kiana Kaslana (Herrscher of the Void) posts are also tagged Kiana Kaslana, because despite how radically different they are, they're still the same person. For most Fate characters, they're still the same people even when they're radically different. Saber Alter is just dark Saber, Saber Lily is just young Saber, ect. But for whatever reason, Danbooru will only give an umbrella tag to Fate characters with more than three variants, which only a handful of characters even have.

So, to me, it's a pretty safe bet to expect that if you give 99% of the cast class qualifiers, then users are going to assume that the one tag without a distinguishing qualifier is going to be applicable to any version of that character, especially since that's how we do it all over the rest of the site. Editing the wiki to clarify this only helps those that read the wiki, and doesn't do anything to actually resolve the issue of the tag being inherently ambiguous.

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Admiral Pectoral

I'm in agreement about standardizing gacha character tags and I'll try to help too, especially for the LGBT gachas since I'm sure not many are familiar with them.

As for qualifiers and Fate related things I'm also mostly in agreement but I think we should have the least amount of exceptions as possible.

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Benit149

CuteBara said:

I'm in agreement about standardizing gacha character tags and I'll try to help too, especially for the LGBT gachas since I'm sure not many are familiar with them.

As for qualifiers and Fate related things I'm also mostly in agreement but I think we should have the least amount of exceptions as possible.

We're cherry-picking those exceptions out as best as we can. So far we have:

I added an update and implication requests for Hassan of Hundred Personas because compared to the vast majority of variants we've been talking about, Hundred Personas really does change their gender and appearance due to that character's nature of having multiple personalities. The most common depictions of Hundred Personas are the Child and Female versions, hence the implication. The male personas we get to see are so generic that they don't have names attached to them.

In the same vein with the Hassans, I never saw mention of king_hassan_(fate/grand_order) and how confusing his naming convention has been. The Japanese version calls him Yama no Okina (山の翁, Old Man of the Mountain). Then we have King Hassan as an alternate English reading of Yama no Okina. THEN we have it changed again to "First Hassan" (include the quotation marks) in the English version of the game. For fuck's sake, DW... I wish I could find a screenshot of his status screen in the Japanese version, but I have to make do with a banner for an example. Here, Yama no Okina is used. My best assumption is to thus make the update king_hassan_(fate/grand_order) -> yama_no_okina_(fate) to stick with EN -> JP names on Danbooru.

There's still the issue of mordred (fate/prototype) floating around. I don't want to mess around with the officially recognized mordred (fate) if the male version really is an unofficially, fan-theorized character. I'm not positive about what to do with artwork concerning a speculated character like this, other than fixing it to be mordred_(fate) + genderswap + what_if, and then nuking the mordred_(fate/prototype) tag.

I'm now coming across another tentative problem, that being alternate depictions of original in-universe characters like Emiya Shirou, Emiya Kiritsugu, Irisviel von Einzbern, Illyasviel von Einzbern, and such. I guess this is in line with the Limited/Zero Over vs. Sengo Muramasa debate. Some of these characters who started off as Masters have evolved into playable Servants through the concept of Pseudo-Servants. As mentioned before, Waver Velvet/Lord El-Melloi II and Reines El-Melloi Archisorte don't count because their character designs don't change whatsoever. However, these characters DO get their own character designs and qualifiers. Would it then be necessary to add the *_(fate) qualifier to in-universe characters, or should it just be used on historical/fictional/mythological characters? Exclude illyasviel_von_einzbern_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate) from that question since she's following the guidelines for tagging holiday variants.

I'm going to put my feet in the water and add the Artoria Pendragon variants that require the *_(fate) qualifier, including those not discussed here and not seen in FGO. The only Artoria've excluded is Master Artoria because I have no clue what to do with her.

Otherwise, there are quite a number of tags that never got mentioned throughout this discussion, so my assumption is that it'll be safe to mass update them. For now, I've added the following to the OP's BUR section, which includes some potential weapons I missed, and unimplying characters who only have two variants to a *_(fate)_(all) umbrella tag to agree with the rule of just three variants getting an umbrella tag. Please notify me of anything I missed in this regard:

  • arjuna_alter -> arjuna_(alter)_(fate)
  • archer -> archer_(fate)
  • archer_alter -> archer_(fate/grand_order:_first_order)
  • saber -> artoria_pendragon_(fate)
    • saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(fate)
    • santa_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(santa)_(fate)
    • saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(lily)_(fate)
    • saber_lion -> artoria_pendragon_(lion_costume)_(fate)
    • sader -> artoria_pendragon_(sader)_(fate)
    • artoria_pendragon_(lancer) -> artoria_pendragon_(lancer)_(fate)
    • artoria_pendragon_(lancer_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(lancer)_(fate)
    • artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer) -> artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)
    • artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_rider_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate)
    • artoria_pendragon_(caster) -> artoria_pendragon_(caster)_(fate)
  • assassin_(fate/stay_night) -> sasaki_kojirou_(fate)
  • assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
    • imply child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
    • imply female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
  • avenger -> angra_mainyu_(fate)
  • bb_(fate/extra_cc) -> bb_(fate)
  • unimply bb_(fate/extra_ccc) -> bb_(fate)_(all)
    • unimply bb_(swimsuit_mooncancer)_(fate) -> bb_(fate)_(all)
  • bellerophon -> bellerophon_(fate)
  • berserker -> heracles_(fate)
  • berserker_(fate/strange_fake) -> jack_the_ripper_(fate/strange_fake) (vs. jack_the_ripper_(fate/apocrypha))
  • black_keys -> black_keys_(fate) (to disambiguate them from keys that are colored black)
  • caladbolg -> caladbolg_(fate)
  • caliburn -> caliburn_(fate)
  • caster -> medea_(fate)
    • caster_lily -> medea_(lily)_(fate)
  • emiya_alter -> emiya_(alter)_(fate)
  • excalibur -> excalibur_(fate/stay_night) (to fit with excalibur_(fate/prototype)
  • galahad_alter -> galahad_(alter)_(fate) (Galahad Alter uses the (Alter) convention, seen HERE)
  • gilgamesh -> gilgamesh_(fate/stay_night)
    • archer_(fate/prototype) -> gilgamesh_(fate/prototype)
    • child_gilgamesh -> child_gilgamesh_(fate)
  • invisible_air -> invisible_air_(fate)
  • lancer -> cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate)
    • cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate)
    • cu_chulainn_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(alter)_(fate)
    • lancer_(prisma_illya) -> cu_chulainn_(prisma_illya)_(fate)
    • unimply cu_chulainn_(fate/prototype) -> cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all)
  • li_shuwen_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(young_lancer)_(fate)
    • li_shuwen_(koha-ace) -> li_shuwen_(old_lancer)_(fate)
    • li_shuwen_(fate/extra) -> li_shuwen_(young_assassin)_(fate)
    • imperial_head_guard_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(old_assassin)_(fate)
  • jeanne_d'arc_(swimsuit_archer) -> jeanne_d'arc_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)
  • jeanne d'arc_(alter_swimsuit_berserker) -> jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(swimsuit_berserker)_(fate)
  • lancer_(fate/zero) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(lancer)_(fate)
    • diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate/grand_order) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(saber)_(fate)
  • leonidas_(fate/grand_order) -> leonidas_(fate)
  • limited/zero_over -> sengo_muramasa_(fate)
  • karin_(fate/requiem) -> karin_(fate)
  • kazuradrop -> kazuradrop_(fate)
  • kingprotea -> kingprotea_(fate)
  • marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate)
  • mecha_eli-chan -> mecha_eli-chan_(fate)
  • mecha_eli-chan_mk.ii -> mecha_eli-chan_mk.ii_(fate)
  • meltryllis -> meltryllis_(fate)
  • merlin_(fate) -> merlin_(fate/stay_night) (to fit with merlin_(fate/prototype)
  • unimply medb_(fate/grand_order) -> medb_(fate)_(all)
    • unimply medb_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate) -> medb_(fate)_(all)
  • medusa_(lancer_alter)_(fate) -> medusa_(fate/grand_order:_first_order)
  • unimply mordred_(fate) -> mordred_(fate)_(all)
  • unimply mordred_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate) -> mordred_(fate)_(all)
  • mysterious_heroine_x -> mysterious_heroine_x_(fate)
    • mysterious_heroine_x_(alter) -> mysterious_heroine_x_(alter)_(fate)
    • mysterious_heroine_xx_(foreigner) -> mysterious_heroine_xx_(fate)
    • ultra_heroine_z -> ultra_heroine_z_(fate)
  • nameless_dagger -> nameless_dagger_(fate)
  • unimply nitocris_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate) -> nitocris_(fate/grand_order)
  • passionlip -> passionlip_(fate)
  • rider_(fate/strange_fake) -> pale_rider_(fate)
  • saint_george_(fate/grand_order) -> georgios_(fate)
  • saint_martha -> martha_(fate)
    • unimply saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> saint_martha
    • saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate)
  • saver -> saver_(fate/prototype) (vs. saver_(fate/extra))
  • true_assassin -> hassan_of_cursed_arm_(fate)
  • true_caster -> francois_prelati_(fate)
  • true_rider -> hippolyta_(fate)
  • utsumi_erise -> utsumi_erice (found official art of the intended writing for Erice's name)
  • violet_(fate/extra_ccc) -> violet_(fate)

The only Swimsuit Servant missing the *_(fate) qualifier I left out was yu_miaoyi_(swimsuit_lancer) due to the confusion between using Yu Miaoyi vs. Consort Yu as her name.

On a slightly unrelated note, do the implications & deimplications have to be done first before any mass updating can proceed?

Reply
Mexiguy

My take from the Gacha Tagging thread (forum #173097)

Mexiguy said:

With the risk of bringing the discussion back to Fate again, I want to two cents. I think that the best solution is that if it's in the summon pool it should be count as as a character tag, since both the game mechanics and the fans treat them as such. With that in mind here is my idea for a tagging system

  • Characters with no variations just tagged with their Spirit Origin name and the '(Fate)' qualifier if necessary (e.g. [[suzuka gozen (fate)]), the same goes for True names that used to be considered spoilers get treated the same, since type-moon/Aniplex and the fans don't seem to care any more, so lancer (fate/zero) becomes Diarmuid Ua Duibhne (Fate)
  • For characters with multiple summonable variants, the base character tag gets treated as an umbrella tag and the variants get tier own character tag in the form of <character_name>_(<holiday>_<class>_<modifier>), yes as a single qualifier so we don't get silly things like (swimsuit)_(foreigner)_(alter)_(lily). Since people unfamiliar with the game (nor the game doesn't itself for that matter) doesn't really which is the "default" form, the default form gets treated as just another variant with just an indication in the wiki for main tag and the respective variant tag to indicate that it is the "default". With that in mind the oh so beloved Artoria would look like this:
  • In the case that a Craft Essence depicts an character actual identifiable character the character gets their own tag with the same naming scheme (i.e Marie Antoinette (Fate) (Alter). In the hypothetical case that the character gets introduced with a completely different appearence the old tag can just be renamed and have the '(Craft Escence)' qualifier added
  • For new characters that get introduced with just their Classs and no True Name their class becomes the name with the specific series as a qualifier (i.e Lancer (Fate/Latest Spinoff) if their true name gets revealed down the lane and gets the usual 20 variants, it gets renamed to the above mentioned rules
Reply
Astolfo

My two cents on some of these points:

Mexiguy said:

  • Characters with no variations just tagged with their Spirit Origin name and the '(Fate)' qualifier if necessary (e.g. [[suzuka gozen (fate)]), the same goes for True names that used to be considered spoilers get treated the same, since type-moon/Aniplex and the fans don't seem to care any more, so lancer (fate/zero) becomes Diarmuid Ua Duibhne (Fate)

I agree.

  • For characters with multiple summonable variants, the base character tag gets treated as an umbrella tag and the variants get tier own character tag in the form of <character_name>_(<holiday>_<class>_<modifier>), yes as a single qualifier so we don't get silly things like (swimsuit)_(foreigner)_(alter)_(lily). Since people unfamiliar with the game (nor the game doesn't itself for that matter) doesn't really which is the "default" form, the default form gets treated as just another variant with just an indication in the wiki for main tag and the respective variant tag to indicate that it is the "default". With that in mind the oh so beloved Artoria would look like this:

I don't agree on some of these points. It may be a bit of a pedantic point, but to me putting the modifier (Alter/Lily) last is generally incorrect in most cases because its position within a name is an important factor about the character. "Jeanne Alter Lily" is not the same as "Jeanne Lily Alter". Swimsuit Jeanne Alter isn't "[Jeanne] [Swimsuit Berserker] [Alter]", she is "[Jeanne Alter] [Swimsuit Berserker]".
It is usually treated as part of the character's name in most cases also. I'm okay with combining some of the qualifiers within a single bracket but at the very least Alter/Lily should either be its own qualifier, or be in an appropriate position among them.

Secondly, I'll reiterate that non-fans being unfamiliar with which form is the default is something I see as a moot point, because non-fans aren't going to have a clue how to tag variants (outside of obvious holiday variants) without checking the tags regardless. I can reuse the Astolfo examples I brought up before (asking a non-fan to tag things like post #4068806 or post #4068791 as either Rider or Saber Astolfo,) or find similar examples for other characters that accomplish the same point.
Characters with multiple non-holiday variants are going to be a pain in the ass for non-fans regardless.

Thirdly - if the only variant is a holiday variant then I also disagree with giving the base form a qualifier. There's no reason to make Medb Medb (Rider) (Fate) just because she now has a swimsuit variant. If "giving even the base form a qualifier" is the way we want to go then I'd only think it necessary to do so when they have non-obvious-holiday variants.

Yes. Which tangentially means Okita Souji (swimsuit assassin) (fate) needs to be changed to Okita J. Souji also, among others perhaps that are tagged with qualifiers despite having a unique name.

  • In the case that a Craft Essence depicts an character actual identifiable character the character gets their own tag with the same naming scheme (i.e Marie Antoinette (Fate) (Alter). In the hypothetical case that the character gets introduced with a completely different appearence the old tag can just be renamed and have the '(Craft Escence)' qualifier added
  • For new characters that get introduced with just their Classs and no True Name their class becomes the name with the specific series as a qualifier (i.e Lancer (Fate/Latest Spinoff) if their true name gets revealed down the lane and gets the usual 20 variants, it gets renamed to the above mentioned rules

Yes yes yes and yes. We're just going to die under a mountain of Fate character tags if we give even alternate costumes (or worse, costumes from Craft Essences) character tags as well.
(Which means something like Mash Kyrielight (Senpai Killer Outfit) needs to be axed/made a gentag also.)

Reply
Benit149

Since no objections have been raised from my current BUR recommendations, I will go ahead and make the mass update request shortly. I have one question though: do I have to handle implication/deimplication requests separately from a massive rename request like this, or can everything be bunched together into one BUR? I've never made a BUR of this scale before and I don't want to get anything wrong.

Reply
Benit149

BUR #3511 has been rejected.

Show

rename abigail_williams_(fate/grand_order) -> abigail_williams_(fate)
rename alcides_(fate/strange_fake) -> alcides_(fate)
rename alice_(fate/extra) -> alice_(fate)
rename altera_larva -> altera_larva_(fate)
rename anne_bonny_(fate/grand_order) -> anne_bonny_(fate)
rename antonio_salieri_(fate/grand_order) -> antonio_salieri_(fate)
rename archer -> archer_(fate)
rename archer_(prisma_illya) -> archer_(prisma_illya)_(fate)
rename archer_alter -> archer_(fate/grand_order:_first_order)
rename archer_class_(fate/stay_night) -> archer_class_(fate)
rename archer's_master_(fate/prototype) -> gilgamesh's_master_(fate/prototype)
rename arjuna_(fate/grand_order) -> arjuna_(fate)
rename arjuna_alter -> arjuna_(alter)_(fate)
rename arondight -> arondight_(fate)
rename artemis_(fate/grand_order) -> artemis_(fate)
rename arthur_pendragon_alter_(fate) -> arthur_pendragon_(alter)_(fate)
rename ashwatthama_(fate/grand_order) -> ashwatthama_(fate)
rename assassin_(fate/stay_night) -> sasaki_kojirou_(fate)
rename assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
create implication child_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
create implication female_assassin_(fate/zero) -> hassan_of_hundred_personas_(fate)
rename assassin_class_(fate/stay_night) -> assassin_class_(fate)
rename asterios_(fate/grand_order) -> asterios_(fate)
rename astraea_(fate/grand_order) -> astraea_(fate)
rename avalon_(fate/stay_night) -> avalon_(fate)
rename avenger -> angra_mainyu_(fate)
rename avenger_class_(fate/stay_night) -> avenger_class_(fate)
rename balmung_(fate/apocrypha) -> balmung_(fate)
rename bartholomew_roberts_(fate/grand_order) -> bartholomew_roberts_(fate)
rename bb_(fate/extra_ccc) -> bb_(fate)
remove implication bb_(fate/extra_ccc) -> bb_(fate)_(all)
remove implication bb_(swimsuit_mooncancer)_(fate) -> bb_(fate)_(all)
rename bedivere -> bedivere_(fate)
rename bellerophon -> bellerophon_(fate)
rename benienma_(fate/grand_order) -> benienma_(fate)
rename beowulf_(fate/grand_order) -> beowulf_(fate)
rename berserker -> heracles_(fate)
rename berserker_(fate/strange_fake) -> jack_the_ripper_(fate/strange_fake)
rename berserker_class_(fate/stay_night) -> berserker_class_(fate)
rename billy_the_kid_(fate/grand_order) -> billy_the_kid_(fate)
rename black_keys -> black_keys_(fate)
rename boudica_(fate/grand_order) -> boudica_(fate)
rename bradamante_(fate/grand_order) -> bradamante_(fate)
rename bucephalus -> bucephalus_(fate)
rename caladbolg -> caladbolg_(fate)
rename calamity_jane_(fate/grand_order) -> calamity_jane_(fate)
rename caliburn -> caliburn_(fate)
rename caligula_(fate/grand_order) -> caligula_(fate)
rename captain_nemo_(fate/grand_order) -> captain_nemo_(fate)
rename carmilla_(fate/grand_order) -> carmilla_(fate)
rename caster -> medea_(fate)
rename caster_lily -> medea_(lily)_(fate)
rename caster_(fate/strange_fake) -> alexandre_dumas_(fate)
rename caster_class_(fate/stay_night) -> caster_class_(fate)
rename castor_(fate/grand_order) -> castor_(fate)
rename chacha_(fate/grand_order) -> chacha_(fate)
rename charles_babbage_(fate/grand_order) -> charles_babbage_(fate)
rename charles_henri_sanson_(fate/grand_order) -> charles-henri_sanson_(fate)
rename charlotte_corday_(fate/grand_order) -> charlotte_corday_(fate)
rename chevalier_d'eon_(fate/grand_order) -> chevalier_d’eon_(fate)
rename christopher_columbus_(fate/grand_order) -> christopher_columbus_(fate)
rename circe_(fate/grand_order) -> circe_(fate)
rename clarent -> clarent_(fate)
rename cleopatra_(fate/grand_order) -> cleopatra_(fate)
rename colonel_olcott_(fate/grand_order) -> colonel_olcott_(fate)
rename dahut_(fate/grand_order) -> dahut_(fate)
rename darius_iii_(fate/grand_order) -> darius_iii_(fate)
rename david_(fate/grand_order) -> david_(fate)
rename demeter_(fate/grand_order) -> demeter_(fate)
rename demon_pillar_(fate/grand_order) -> demon_pillar_(fate)
rename dun_stallion -> dun_stallion_(fate)
rename ea_(fate/stay_night) -> ea_(fate)
rename edmond_dantes_(fate/grand_order) -> edmond_dantes_(fate)
rename edward_teach_(fate/grand_order) -> edward_teach_(fate)
rename elixir_of_love_(fate/grand_order) -> elixir_of_love_(fate)
rename elizabeth_bathory_(fate) -> elizabeth_bathory_(lancer)_(fate)
rename emiya_alter -> emiya_(alter)_(fate)
rename enki_(fate/prototype) -> enki_(fate)
rename enkidu_(fate/strange_fake) -> enkidu_(fate)
rename enkidu_(weapon) -> enkidu_(weapon)_(fate)
rename ereshkigal_(fate/grand_order) -> ereshkigal_(fate)
rename eric_bloodaxe_(fate/grand_order) -> eric_bloodaxe_(fate)
rename europa_(fate/grand_order) -> europa_(fate)
rename euryale -> euryale_(fate)
rename excalibur -> excalibur_(fate/stay_night)
rename fergus_mac_roich_(fate/grand_order) -> fergus_mac_roich_(fate)
rename fergus_mac_roich_(young)_(fate/grand_order) -> fergus_mac_roich_(young)_(fate)
rename florence_nightingale_(fate/grand_order) -> florence_nightingale_(fate)
rename florence_nightingale_santa_(fate/grand_order) -> florence_nightingale_(santa)_(fate)
rename fou_(fate/grand_order) -> fou_(fate)
rename fragarach -> fragarach_(fate)
rename francesca_prelati_(fate) -> francesca_prelati
rename fuuma_kotarou_(fate/grand_order) -> fuuma_kotarou_(fate)
rename gae_bolg -> gae_bolg_(fate)
rename galahad_alter -> galahad_(alter)_(fate)
rename gareth_(fate/grand_order) -> gareth_(fate)
rename gawain_(fate/extra) -> gawain_(fate)
rename gazer_(fate/grand_order) -> gazer_(fate)
rename geronimo_(fate/grand_order) -> geronimo_(fate)
rename gilgamesh -> gilgamesh_(fate/stay_night)
rename archer_(fate/prototype) -> gilgamesh_(fate/prototype)
rename child_gilgamesh -> child_gilgamesh_(fate)
rename caster_(fate/zero) -> gilles_de_rais_(caster)_(fate)
rename gilles_de_rais_(fate/grand_order) -> gilles_de_rais_(saber)_(fate)
rename goetia_(fate/grand_order) -> goetia_(fate)
rename grainne -> grainne_(fate)
rename han_xin_(fate/grand_order) -> han_xin_(fate)
rename hans_christian_andersen_(fate)_(adult) -> hans_christian_andersen_(adult)_(fate)
rename hector_(fate/grand_order) -> hector_(fate)
create implication helena_blavatsky_(fate/grand_order) -> helena_blavatsky_(fate)_(all)
create implication helena_blavatsky_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate) -> helena_blavatsky_(fate)_(all)
create implication helena_blavatsky_(christmas)_(fate) -> helena_blavatsky_(fate)_(all)
rename helena_blavatsky_(fate/grand_order) -> helena_blavatsky_(caster)_(fate)
rename hessian_(fate/grand_order) -> hessian_(fate)
rename hijikata_toshizou_(fate/grand_order) -> hijikata_toshizou_(fate)
rename houzouin_inshun_(fate/grand_order) -> houzouin_inshun_(fate)
rename ibaraki_douji_(fate/grand_order) -> ibaraki_douji_(fate)
rename ifrit_(fate/grand_order) -> ifrit_(fate)
rename invisible_air -> invisible_air_(fate)
rename ishtar_(fate/grand_order) -> ishtar_(archer)_(fate)
rename ivan_the_terrible_(fate/grand_order) -> ivan_the_terrible_(fate)
rename jaguarman_(fate/grand_order) -> jaguarman_(fate)
rename james_moriarty_(fate/grand_order) -> james_moriarty_(fate)
rename jason_(fate/grand_order) -> jason_(fate)
rename jeanne_d'arc_(fate) -> jeanne_d'arc_(ruler)_(fate)
rename jeanne_d'arc_(swimsuit_archer) -> jeanne_d'arc_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)
rename jeanne_d'arc_(alter_swimsuit_berserker) -> jeanne_d'arc_(alter)_(swimsuit_berserker)_(fate)
rename jing_ke_(fate/grand_order) -> jing_ke_(fate)
rename joyeuse_ordre -> joyeuse_ordre_(fate)
rename julius_caesar_(fate/grand_order) -> julius_caesar_(fate)
rename kama_(fate/grand_order) -> kama_(fate)
rename karin_(fate/requiem) -> karin_(fate)
rename katsushika_hokusai_(fate/grand_order) -> katsushika_hokusai_(fate)
rename kasuga_no_tsubone_(fate/grand_order) -> kasuga_no_tsubone_(fate)
rename katou_danzou_(fate/grand_order) -> katou_danzou_(fate)
rename kazuradrop -> kazuradrop_(fate)
rename king_hassan_(fate/grand_order) -> king_hassan_(fate)
rename kingprotea -> kingprotea_(fate)
rename kiyohime_(fate/grand_order) -> kiyohime_(fate)
rename kobayashi_(fate/zero) -> kobayashi_(fate)
rename kotone_(fate/zero) -> kotone_(fate)
rename koyanskaya -> koyanskaya_(fate)
rename lahmu -> lahmu_(fate)
rename lakshmibai_(fate/grand_order) -> lakshmibai_(fate)
rename lancer -> cu_chulainn_(lancer)_(fate)
rename cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(caster)_(fate)
rename cu_chulainn_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(alter)_(fate)
rename lancer_(prisma_illya) -> cu_chulainn_(prisma_illya)_(fate)
remove implication cu_chulainn_(fate/prototype) -> cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all)
rename lancer_(fate/zero) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(lancer)_(fate)
rename diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(fate/grand_order) -> diarmuid_ua_duibhne_(saber)_(fate)
rename lancer_class_(fate/stay_night) -> lancer_class_(fate)
rename lavinia_whateley_(fate/grand_order) -> lavinia_whateley_(fate)
rename leonardo_da_vinci_(fate/grand_order) -> leonardo_da_vinci_(fate)
rename leonidas_(fate/grand_order) -> leonidas_(fate)
rename leysritt -> leysritt_(fate)
rename li_shuwen_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(young_lancer)_(fate)
rename li_shuwen_(koha-ace) -> li_shuwen_(old_lancer)_(fate)
rename li_shuwen_(fate) -> li_shuwen_(young_assassin)_(fate)
rename imperial_head_guard_(fate/grand_order) -> li_shuwen_(old_assassin)_(fate)
create alias limited/zero_over -> sengo_muramasa_(fate)
rename lobo_(fate/grand_order) -> lobo_(fate)
rename mandricardo_(fate/grand_order) -> mandricardo_(fate)
create implication marie_antoinette_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(fate)_(all)
create implication marie_antoinette_(swimsuit_caster)_(fate) -> marie_antoinette_(fate)_(all)
create implication marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(fate)_(all)
rename marie_antoinette_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(rider)_(fate)
rename marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate/grand_order) -> marie_antoinette_(alter)_(fate)
rename mary_read_(fate/grand_order) -> mary_read_(fate)
rename mata_hari_(fate/grand_order) -> mata_hari_(fate)
rename matsudaira_nobutsuna_(fate/grand_order) -> matsudaira_nobutsuna_(fate)
rename medb_(fate/grand_order) -> medb_(fate)
remove implication medb_(fate/grand_order) -> medb_(fate)_(all)
remove implication medb_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate) -> medb_(fate)_(all)
rename medjed -> medjed_(fate)
rename medusa_(lancer_alter)_(fate) -> medusa_(fate/grand_order:_first_order)
rename meltryllis -> meltryllis_(fate)
rename mephistopheles_(fate/grand_order) -> mephistopheles_(fate)
rename merlin_(fate) -> merlin_(fate/stay_night)
rename minamoto_no_raikou_(fate/grand_order) -> minamoto_no_raikou_(fate)
rename mithrenes -> mithrenes_(fate)
rename miyamoto_musashi_(fate/grand_order) -> miyamoto_musashi_(fate)
rename mochizuki_chiyome_(fate/grand_order) -> mochizuki_chiyome_(fate)
remove implication mordred_(fate) -> mordred_(fate)_(all)
remove implication mordred_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate) -> mordred_(fate)_(all)
rename moses_(fate/prototype_fragments) -> moses_(fate)
rename musashibo_benkei_(fate/grand_order) -> musashibo_benkei_(fate)
rename mysterious_heroine_xx_(foreigner) -> mysterious_heroine_xx
rename naga_(fate/grand_order) -> naga_(fate)
rename nameless_dagger -> nameless_dagger_(fate)
rename napoleon_bonaparte_(fate/grand_order) -> napoleon_bonaparte_(fate)
rename nefertari_(fate/prototype_fragments) -> nefertari_(fate)
rename nezha_(fate/grand_order) -> nezha_(fate)
rename nikola_tesla_(fate/grand_order) -> nikola_tesla_(fate)
rename nitocris_(fate/grand_order) -> nitocris_(fate)
remove implication nitocris_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate) -> nitocris_(fate/grand_order)
rename nursery_rhyme_(fate/extra) -> nursery_rhyme_(fate)
rename oda_nobukatsu_(fate/grand_order) -> oda_nobukatsu_(fate)
rename oda_nobunaga_(fate) -> oda_nobunaga_(archer)_(fate)
rename odysseus_(fate/grand_order) -> odysseus_(fate)
rename okada_izou_(dog) -> okada_izou_(dog)_(fate)
rename okita_souji_(fate) -> okita_souji_(saber)_(fate)
rename onui_(fate/grand_order) -> onui_(fate)
rename oprichnik_(fate/grand_order) -> oprichnik_(fate)
rename orion_(fate/grand_order) -> orion_(bear)_(fate)
rename osakabe-hime_(fate/grand_order) -> osakabe-hime_(fate)
rename ougi_(fate/zero) -> ougi_(fate)
rename paris_(fate/grand_order) -> paris_(fate)
rename parvati_(fate/grand_order) -> parvati_(fate)
rename passionlip -> passionlip_(fate)
rename patxi -> patxi_(fate)
rename paul_bunyan_(fate/grand_order) -> paul_bunyan_(fate)
rename penthesilea_(fate/grand_order) -> penthesilea_(fate)
rename phantom_of_the_opera_(fate/grand_order) -> phantom_of_the_opera_(fate)
rename photon_ray -> photon_ray_(fate)
rename pollux_(fate/grand_order) -> pollux_(fate)
rename qin_shi_huang_(fate/grand_order) -> qin_shi_huang_(fate)
rename queen_of_sheba_(fate/grand_order) -> queen_of_sheba_(fate)
rename quetzalcoatl_(fate/grand_order) -> quetzalcoatl_(fate)
rename rama_(fate/grand_order) -> rama_(fate)
rename rasputin_(fate/grand_order) -> rasputin_(fate)
rename red_hare_(fate/grand_order) -> red_hare_(fate)
rename rider_(fate/strange_fake) -> pale_rider_(fate)
rename rider_class_(fate/stay_night) -> rider_class_(fate)
rename rhongomyniad -> rhongomyniad_(fate)
rename roland_(fate/grand_order) -> roland_(fate)
rename rohngall -> rohngall_(fate)
rename romulus_(fate/grand_order) -> romulus_(fate)
rename romulus_quirinus_(fate/grand_order) -> romulus_quirinus_(fate)
rename saber_(fate/strange_fake) -> richard_i_(fate)
rename saber -> artoria_pendragon_(saber)_(fate)
rename saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(fate)
rename santa_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(santa)_(fate)
rename saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(lily)_(fate)
rename saber_lion -> artoria_pendragon_(lion_costume)_(fate)
rename sader -> artoria_pendragon_(sader)_(fate)
rename artoria_pendragon_(lancer) -> artoria_pendragon_(lancer)_(fate)
rename artoria_pendragon_(lancer_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(lancer)_(fate)
rename artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer) -> artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_archer)_(fate)
rename artoria_pendragon_(swimsuit_rider_alter) -> artoria_pendragon_(alter)_(swimsuit_rider)_(fate)
rename artoria_pendragon_(caster) -> artoria_pendragon_(caster)_(fate)
rename saber_class_(fate/stay_night) -> saber_class_(fate)
rename saint_george_(fate/grand_order) -> georgios_(fate)
rename saint_martha -> martha_(fate)
remove implication saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> saint_martha
rename saint_martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate) -> martha_(swimsuit_ruler)_(fate)
rename sakata_kintoki_(fate/grand_order) -> sakata_kintoki_(fate)
rename sakata_kintoki_rider_(fate/grand_order) -> sakata_kintoki_(rider)_(fate)
rename salome_(fate/grand_order) -> salome_(fate)
rename saver -> saver_(fate/prototype)
rename scathach_(fate/grand_order) -> scathach_(lancer)_(fate)
rename scathach_skadi_(fate/grand_order) -> scathach_skadi_(fate)
rename scheherazade_(fate/grand_order) -> scheherazade_(fate)
rename sella -> sella_(fate)
rename sesshouin_kiara_(lily) -> sesshouin_kiara_(lily)_(fate)
rename shamhat -> shamhat_(fate)
rename sherlock_holmes_(fate/grand_order) -> sherlock_holmes_(fate)
rename shibata_katsuie_(fate/grand_order) -> shibata_katsuie_(fate)
rename shirley_(fate/zero) -> shirley_(fate)
rename shirou_(fate/grand_order) -> shirou_(fate)
rename shuten_douji_(fate/grand_order) -> shuten_douji_(fate)
rename siduri_(fate/grand_order) -> siduri_(fate)
rename sieg_(fate/apocrypha) -> sieg_(fate)
rename sigma_(fate/strange_fake) -> sigma_(fate)
rename sigurd_(fate/grand_order) -> sigurd_(fate)
rename sita_(fate/grand_order) -> sita_(fate)
rename sitonai -> sitonai_(fate)
rename solomon_(fate/grand_order) -> solomon_(fate)
rename spriggan_(fate/grand_order) -> spriggan_(fate)
rename stheno -> stheno_(fate)
rename summer_casual_(fate/grand_order) -> summer_casual_(fate)
rename surtr_(fate/grand_order) -> surtr_(fate)
rename tamamo_no_mae_(fate) -> tamamo_no_mae_(caster)_(fate)
rename tanaka_(fate/kaleid_liner) -> tanaka_(fate)
rename tasuke_(fate/grand_order) -> tasuke_(fate)
rename tawara_touta_(fate/grand_order) -> tawara_touta_(fate)
rename thomas_edison_(fate/grand_order) -> thomas_edison_(fate)
rename tiamat_(fate/grand_order) -> tiamat_(fate)
rename tristan_(fate/grand_order) -> tristan_(fate)
rename true_assassin -> hassan_of_cursed_arm_(fate)
rename true_caster -> francois_prelati_(fate)
rename true_rider -> hippolyta_(fate)
rename tokitarou_(fate/grand_order) -> tokitarou_(fate)
rename tomoe_gozen_(fate/grand_order) -> tomoe_gozen_(fate)
rename tool_(fate/apocrypha) -> toole_(fate)
rename toyotomi_hideyoshi_(koha-ace) -> toyotomi_hideyoshi_(fate)
rename twinmyniad -> twinmyniad_(fate)
rename ushiwakamaru_(fate/grand_order) -> ushiwakamaru_(fate)
rename utsumi_erise -> utsumi_erice
rename valkyrie_(fate/grand_order) -> valkyrie_(fate)
rename ortlinde_(fate/grand_order) -> ortlinde_(fate)
rename hildr_(fate/grand_order) -> hildr_(fate)
rename thrud_(fate/grand_order) -> thrud_(fate)
rename violet_(fate/extra_ccc) -> violet_(fate)
rename viy -> viy_(fate)
rename voyager_(fate/requiem) -> voyager_(fate)
rename watcher_(fate/strange_fake) -> watcher_(fate)
rename william_tell_(fate/grand_order) -> william_tell_(fate)
rename wolfgang_amadeus_mozart_(fate/grand_order) -> wolfgang_amadeus_mozart_(fate)
rename wu_zetian_(fate/grand_order) -> wu_zetian_(fate)
rename xiang_yu_(fate/grand_order) -> xiang_yu_(fate)
rename xuanzang_(fate/grand_order) -> xuangzang_sanzang_(fate)
rename yagyuu_munenori_(fate/grand_order) -> yagyuu_munenori_(fate)
rename yan_qing_(fate/grand_order) -> yan_qing_(fate)
rename yang_guifei_(fate/grand_order) -> yang_guifei_(fate)
rename yvette_l._lehrman -> yvette_l_lehrman

Mass update request as discussed throughout this thread. Most of them are either singular names without qualifiers, or transitioning from *_(fate/*) to *_(fate). Further discussion may be needed if there are any disagreements with this BUR.

EDIT: This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

EDIT: This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 60 days.

EDIT: The bulk update request #3511 (forum #173231) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

Updated by DanbooruBot

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RELMayer BrokenEagle98 Login to view Nacha Kitsunemimi
blindVigil

There's a lot here that's outside my knowledge base, but a few things that caught my eye while skimming it:

Cu Chulainn and Diarmuid's default variants were given class qualifiers, but Artoria's (and possibly others) default wasn't given one. Whether we decide to give the defaults class qualifiers or not for characters with multiple versions, it does need to be consistent.

I also agree with what others have said about the (Class)(Alter)(Lily) qualifiers, it should be a single qualifier, written out however the game writes it since as Astolfo said, the ordering does matter.

I basically agree with everything Mexiguy said, except for the part about named costumes, but that's unrelated to this particular BUR.

Updated

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Benit149

blindVigil said:

There's a lot here that's outside my knowledge base, but a few things that caught my eye while skimming it:

Cu Chulainn and Diarmuid's default variants were given class qualifiers, but Artoria's (and possibly others) default wasn't given one. Whether we decide to give the defaults class qualifiers or not for characters with multiple versions, it does need to be consistent.

I also agree with what others have said about the (Class)(Alter)(Lily) qualifiers, it should be a single qualifier, written out however the game writes it since as Astolfo said, the ordering does matter.

I basically agree with everything Mexiguy said, except for the part about named costumes, but that's unrelated to this particular BUR.

The trouble I found with cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) (his Caster variant) was that it was being used for images of his Lancer variant, which led me to believe that there was some confusion as to what the tag was inherently referring to. In fact, my frustration with fixing tags related to Cu’s class variants (and why Cu Caster wasn’t being tagged the same way as Gilgamesh Caster) was one of the many reasons I felt compelled to work on this mass update. That’s why I added class qualifiers to all variants of certain characters like Cu, Diarmuid and Gilles de Rais - their variants are only of class changes, nothing to do with special holidays. If the plain name was used as the default class’ tag, people may not know what it’s referring to.

Although I say that, I realize that I hadn’t done anything with Astolfo to separate his Rider and Saber variants. The tag for his Saber version is fine, but I honestly don’t know how to treat his default Rider variant since he’s such a popular character. Yeah, Cu’s popular too, but at least he has three variants that can be defined instead of just two. I just feel a little iffy with Astolfo right now due to the debate about adding class qualifiers to SOME default variants. I understand how inconsistent I’m sounding right now, but it’s such a frustrating and messy issue to make sense of.

I didn’t do it with some of Artoria’s variants due to the highly subjective nature of the discussion surrounding her. If needed, another update can be done in the future regarding her.

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