Posted under General
Given that this is coming up again in the comment thread for post #1765797 and we never reached a conclusion here
Is there any idea on what should be done for now? There seems to be an agreement that these don't belong here, but not much of a statement on whats going to be done to rectify the issues
I thought the rule is pretty clear on this:
This is for compliance with copyright laws. Danbooru aims to share, appreciate and preserve high-quality anime style art that would otherwise die in obscurity. If you can buy it, don't post it. Copyrighted content that is not at the risk of extinction ill needs the protection of Danbooru.
Edit: fixed link.
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This is confusing since the terms of service I can see through the more subpage doesn't have this line
Saladofstones said:
This is confusing since the terms of service I can see through the more subpage doesn't have this line
Apparently we have two different TOS for some reason. A short one that we all agreed to (which is pretty lax on copyright issues), and a longer one that almost no one knows about and has almost zero links to.
To make things more confusing, the guy who wrote the longer TOS called for it to be deleted almost a year ago forum #92163
Saladofstones said:
Is there any idea on what should be done for now? There seems to be an agreement that these don't belong here, but not much of a statement on whats going to be done to rectify the issues
Man, this has been the situation with hard translations for literally years now. Every argument for and against in this thread has been made many times in the past. It's ample time to make a decision and be done with it.
I've always wanted to ask about this too.
I know that uploading anything that isn't free and publicly-available is not acceptable in Danbooru, and doujin is definitely one of them. There's no denying that it is piracy, you just can't argue about that. And hard-translated ones shouldn't even need to be discussed.
However, what if it is an old doujin that's not available legally due to being out of stock and no longer printed, thus no longer buy-able? Will it be alright to upload that kind of doujins?
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monhan said:
I know that uploading anything that isn't free and publicly-available is not acceptable in Danbooru, and doujin is definitely one of them. There's no denying that it is piracy, you just can't argue about that. And hard-translated ones shouldn't even need to be discussed.
That's the first time I've heard of that. We have a massive number of scanned non-free work. The feeling I've always gotten from the site and policies has been as long as the artist doesn't come knocking on Albert's door (artist banning), anything goes.
monhan said:
I know that uploading anything that isn't free and publicly-available is not acceptable in Danbooru, and doujin is definitely one of them. There's no denying that it is piracy, you just can't argue about that. And hard-translated ones shouldn't even need to be discussed.
That really can't be right, since as far as I'm aware we have no issues with scans from artbooks and I know we don't have issues with scans from magazines. Also if it is just pure art pages (example: post #1429721), I don't really see an issue with having it uploaded, even if it is from a manga (the example specifically is from their not for sale special book, but the art is a reprint of what was released in the manga magazine).
If a doujin is less than a year old since release, I will usually not approve it, but if it is over a year old I'll approve it so long as the scans appear clean and the artwork appears good.
As for the issue of hard translations, I guess I'm open that they should be allowed when (1) the raw is unavailable and (2) someone can vouch that the writing makes sense and appears to be translated alright (something like the "mass naked child events" should be obviously awkward when reading the whole thing). If the raw is unavailable, the only thing you can compare the pages to are themselves, and if what is written there sounds appropriate it's not like anyone would be able to judge it being wrong unless they had the originals at hand anyway.
OOZ662 said:
That's the first time I've heard of that. We have a massive number of scanned non-free work. The feeling I've always gotten from the site and policies has been as long as the artist doesn't come knocking on Albert's door (artist banning), anything goes.
Yes, we have a lot of that, and I'm also guilty of some of them. But the fact is, there's a risk. We definitely don't want more artists to be banned here.
NWF_Renim said:
That really can't be right, since as far as I'm aware we have no issues with scans from artbooks and I know we don't have issues with scans from magazines. Also if it is just pure art pages (example: post #1429721), I don't really see an issue with having it uploaded, even if it is from a manga (the example specifically is from their not for sale special book, but the art is a reprint of what was released in the manga magazine).
Well, I'm not arguing about artbook and the kind, because it being an "art" book means that it usually has good quality arts that appeals visually, because that's the main purpose of the books. I have no problem with them because that's the kind of pictures that people want in Danbooru. Although it still risks the problem with copyright, it still qualifies to be approved for most people.
That's apparently not the case for comics and doujins, because let's face it, a good chunk of them don't score much in the art department. And you can't blame them. There's no way an artist can put the same quality of a singular artsy pic into every pages, let alone every panels(Read: Imizu is not an artist, he is IMIZU. Period.). The only way they can be visually appealing is through the artist's art style, and not every one of them is spectacular at that.
However, they obviously excel in story, pacing and all the other stuffs that comic is supposed to do. Comparing them with pictures for the art is just not right because that's not what they are made for. But the problem is that you won't be able to enjoy them from just a few pages and if you don't understand the language, so you can't expect everyone to appreciate them.
Another problem is that most of them are sold goods and aren't exactly "free" like most pics in here. This is the more pressing one because again, it tucks with copyright problem and artists have shown to be against it.
Trust me, I have literally hundreds of Touhou doujins that I really want to upload here and translate, but knowing that it was pretty much illegal and some people have warned me about it, made me hesitant. You may say that it helps publicizing the artist works and everything, but not every artist is going to be okay with that. Which is why it's risky.
NWF_Renim said:
If a doujin is less than a year old since release, I will usually not approve it, but if it is over a year old I'll approve it so long as the scans appear clean and the artwork appears good.
This. It's what I want to discuss. Though I don't really agree if it's just a year old.
What I meant are those old doujins that aren't really available anywhere.
Not from Tora no Ana, Melonbooks or any online store. Nor from used goods store like Suruga-ya or auctions. TOTALLY out of print and no longer available, except for those scans that you have.
I bring this up because I want to see your opinions. Like Ironbottom mentioned up there from the Terms of service
If you can buy it, don't post it.
So technically, you can no longer buy those doujins because you just can't. You have no access to read it other than the scans, and the artist no longer prints them. Of course, the artist probably still won't be fine seeing that, but is it okay to post them with that conditions?
I don't agree for those who are just 1-2 years old because most times they're still available in stores or in Suruga-ya, even if it's only one copy.
(Don't hesitate with buying used comics, I've bought some from Suruga-ya and they're surprisingly in really good condition. The Japanese have high standard for "used" stuffs.)
Sure, people will argue that it's not buyable because it's not commercially available worldwide and stores don't ship overseas. Seriously though, get some services for that. There are many that will buy them and internationally ships them to you. This guy is an example, just don't order any porn from him. After that, the only problem there is money, and that's for you to decide.
NWF_Renim said:
As for the issue of hard translations, I guess I'm open that they should be allowed when (1) the raw is unavailable and (2) someone can vouch that the writing makes sense and appears to be translated alright (something like the "mass naked child events" should be obviously awkward when reading the whole thing). If the raw is unavailable, the only thing you can compare the pages to are themselves, and if what is written there sounds appropriate it's not like anyone would be able to judge it being wrong unless they had the originals at hand anyway.
(1) With the condition that the original book is also not available in stores.
(2) If that's possible, well... can't really say much about this. But I'm usually against second-hand translations, because even "official translations" have changed the words for the sake of saving time and efforts. Not to mention puns and idioms that often don't translate well into other language. It's almost impossible not to have anything lost in translations.
So in short, uploading doujins is only allowed if you can't get them legally anymore.
What do you guys think about that?
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Kadoya said:
I'm okay with uploading stuff that aren't "commercially" available. Or at least stuff that's well over a year old.
IMHO, age shouldn't have anything to do with whether something deserves to be on Danbooru. We don't exempt older posts from flags if they don't meet the quality standards, so I don't see why doujinshi should get a free pass.
Also, how can you be sure that an out-of-stock doujin won't become available again at some point in the future? It may become part of a compilation book or simply go on sale again. be I've personally bought stuff from Toranoana that went back on sale after many years.
On the art book vs doujin issue, I have two arguments:
1. Official art books and magazines are (mostly) made by professional publishing houses together with anime/game studios. They're capable of taking a hit in their profits. Doujins are made by individual artist or small groups, and any piracy will directly hurt their bottom-line.
2. Publishers and anime/game studios won't hit us with copyright notices, but individual artist will, and often do, request to have all their art removed from here.
monhan said:
So in short, uploading doujins is only allowed if you can't get them legally anymore.
What do you guys think about that?
I'm all for it.
There are multiple independent issues here that I think need to be considered separately.
First off, the legal question. Is hosting commercial material too much legal liability? Will it attract too much negative attention or takedown requests? I feel like this is a decision for albert to make, not us. It's his site and he's the one at risk here.
Next there's the issue of ethics. Do we want to voluntarily restrict ourselves to only not-readily-available materials, just because that's the right thing to do? This is separate from the legal question since it's copyright infringement either way, no matter whether we decide it's ethically okay or not.
Then there's the question of relevance to Danbooru. Do printed doujins belong here at all? The vast majority of Danbooru's content is web fanart, and printed doujins feel tangential to our focus to me. There are other sites dedicated strictly to doujins that do a better job than us. In many ways, Danbooru is designed around dealing with standalone images only.
So we need a decisive policy on whether doujins should be allowed or discouraged to start with. There's been confusion for years even among longtime users over how allowable or discouraged they are. It's fruitless to get into questions of quality standards and hard translations versus raws and so forth before we settle the root issue first.
Fred1515 said:
IMHO, age shouldn't have anything to do with whether something deserves to be on Danbooru. We don't exempt older posts from flags if they don't meet the quality standards, so I don't see why doujinshi should get a free pass.
Also, how can you be sure that an out-of-stock doujin won't become available again at some point in the future? It may become part of a compilation book or simply go on sale again. be I've personally bought stuff from Toranoana that went back on sale after many years.
The problem with Doujinshi is not just the quality standard, but also the legality of posting them here. If a doujin doesn't have a good quality it won't be approved in the first place.
And yeah, that's definitely one problem that I've been pondering about myself.
Artists have made some compilation books and sold them digitally in DL sites and such. Some of them even upload their full old doujins in their pixiv for free.
Compilation books might be okay since it's more like a chance for the consumer to have printed old works, and they mostly have extra contents, so I think people will still buy those, regardless of the available scans of the old works. Also, I wonder if it's okay to upload works from artists who have stopped making them?
The Pixiv one won't be a problem since it's free after all. Just be sure to link it there just in case.
Now the hard one is the Digital downloadable books, as they are technically available forever, so you can buy them.
I can't say for sure about it, which is why I'm asking you guys first.
evazion said:
There are multiple independent issues here that I think need to be considered separately.
First off, the legal question. Is hosting commercial material too much legal liability? Will it attract too much negative attention or takedown requests? I feel like this is a decision for albert to make, not us. It's his site and he's the one at risk here.
Next there's the issue of ethics. Do we want to voluntarily restrict ourselves to only not-readily-available materials, just because that's the right thing to do? This is separate from the legal question since it's copyright infringement either way, no matter whether we decide it's ethically okay or not.
Then there's the question of relevance to Danbooru. Do printed doujins belong here at all? The vast majority of Danbooru's content is web fanart, and printed doujins feel tangential to our focus to me. There are other sites dedicated strictly to doujins that do a better job than us. In many ways, Danbooru is designed around dealing with standalone images only.
So we need a decisive policy on whether doujins should be allowed or discouraged to start with. There's been confusion for years even among longtime users over how allowable or discouraged they are. It's fruitless to get into questions of quality standards and hard translations versus raws and so forth before we settle the root issue first.
Yes, it will still have a problem with the copyright, sadly. But I just think that it will hurt the artist less this way, hopefully.
As for the relevance of doujins in Danbooru, I don't really want to argue about that. Practically because I can understand the reason against it, even if I want them here.
And of course we're just discussing and giving suggestions here. We can't just conclude it on our own and there's the need to put it in the ToS and everything.
The ones who'll decide are obviously those in control.
monhan said:
And of course we're just discussing and giving suggestions here. We can't just conclude it on our own and there's the need to put it in the ToS and everything. The ones who'll decide are obviously those in control.
That's the problem. This topic has been discussed repeatedly and at great length since the early days and still nothing has been officially decided. Just look at all these ancient threads:
Now we're rehashing this topic yet again and the same thing is going to happen that always happens: we're going to talk about it, the thread will die with nothing decided, then random contributors and janitors are going to keep operating by their own personal rules.
As a result we've reached the point where people think that not only is any random doujin allowable, but that hard translations and even Chinese->Japanese->English thirdhand translations are okay. This is madness.
Agreed. I think a Doujinbooru would be a good way to handle this (suggested it before in forum #91087) and Albert seems open to the idea, so here's hoping.
Seconded.
Also I've heard somewhere (can't remember where) that most doujin artists generally don't sell doujin with the expectation of making any significant profit.
monhan said:
I don't agree for those who are just 1-2 years old because most times they're still available in stores or in Suruga-ya, even if it's only one copy.
Does the artist receive payment for used copies sold?
I don't really see the issue if they don't...
Bansho said:
Seconded.
Also I've heard somewhere (can't remember where) that most doujin artists generally don't sell doujin with the expectation of making any significant profit.
Does the artist receive payment for used copies sold?
I don't really see the issue if they don't...
Yes, but there are those who do it for a living or at least make a payback.
Well, they don't. I'm just sticking with the "Can buy it? Don't post it" rule.
I'm not even sure of the payment procedure that online stores like Tora no Ana or Melonbooks is, but I think the most logical one is that they got their money when they first put them in the store, and not depending on how much copies get sold.
evazion said:
That's the problem. This topic has been discussed repeatedly and at great length since the early days and still nothing has been officially decided. Just look at all these ancient threads:
Now we're rehashing this topic yet again and the same thing is going to happen that always happens: we're going to talk about it, the thread will die with nothing decided, then random contributors and janitors are going to keep operating by their own personal rules.
As a result we've reached the point where people think that not only is any random doujin allowable, but that hard translations and even Chinese->Japanese->English thirdhand translations are okay. This is madness.
Yes, I know it won't do much if we just leave it again, so this time I'd like to try ending it.
If it's about relevance of doujins in Danbooru, well, in my opinion, no, they are not relevant.
As mentioned above, doujin can't be compared to art pictures, as in you won't get the full enjoyment from a single page of it. Also, the tagging system in Danbooru is clearly designed for pictures, which is true to the purpose of the site. Most times doujin won't need as much tagging(some are even poorly tagged). And of course, the legality problem of doujinshi as opposed to free comics from Pixiv.
I have to admit, if there's any reason why I want to post doujins here, then it's simply that. I "want" to.
It's all favoritism, no other reason. I purposely ignored the quality of the not-so-good-pages for the sake of putting them all here, because I like it. Not necessarily because it's visually appealing or anything.
I'm not saying that it applies to everyone, but please try to think about the reason why you put it here.
I want them here, I really want to. However, it seems that it causes too much problem, and that just won't do.
I'm sure someone will be discussing these pools soon:
http://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/8872
http://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/8875
http://danbooru.donmai.us/pools/8885
so we might as well finish this now. I'm hoping for some feedbacks and ideas from the people here.
While Doujinbooru might work, I'm still not completely sure with it. What if we apply the rules that I suggested before, about not uploading legally available doujin?
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monhan said:
I'm not even sure of the payment procedure that online stores like Tora no Ana or Melonbooks is, but I think the most logical one is that they got their money when they first put them in the store, and not depending on how much copies get sold.
This is not the case. These stores are consignment shops, meaning the owners of the works (i.e. the artists and doujin circles) retain their ownership over the stock the store keeps, and get paid for each sale after the store has subtracted its share (costs related to promotion, shipping, etc. and store profit).
monhan said:
While Doujinbooru might work, I'm still not completely sure with it. What if we apply the rules that I suggested before, about not uploading legally available doujin?
Then the same issues mentioned previously still apply. Nobody can guarantee that sold-out doujinshi won't go on sale again and nobody in the moderation queue will bother checking the legal availability of a doujin every single time, while in the meantime we'll still be flooded by doujin uploads. It's all too half-baked to work.
Fred1515 said:
This is not the case. These stores are consignment shops, meaning the owners of the works (i.e. the artists and doujin circles) retain their ownership over the stock the store keeps, and get paid for each sale after the store has subtracted its share (costs related to promotion, shipping, etc. and store profit).
Then the same issues mentioned previously still apply. Nobody can guarantee that sold-out doujinshi won't go on sale again and nobody in the moderation queue will bother checking the legal availability of a doujin every single time, while in the meantime we'll still be flooded by doujin uploads. It's all too half-baked to work.
Geez, so it's the inconvenient one.
That's good to know though, which means that every copy of them matters.
I actually meant to apply those rules in doujinbooru if it was made. Just as a way to stop people from going overboard with uploading the doujins.
Since it will be filled with doujin, it'll be more prone to be warned by the artists
