None of them would be valid if the general quality was KEPT as high as it should. It wasn't; and now poor drawings are "acceptable" and "valid" as you say.
Posted under General
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Uh, this reminds me of that case when some users(I don't remember the exact user level) tried to advocate removing more and more instead of approving.
Janitors' occupation is to approve post they like, not to remove posts they personally don't like. It was specifically designed that way because perception of art is very subjective and therefore its quality is in the eye of the beholder too.
This destructive behavior really bothers me, even if I can't directly influence the situation.
Wypatroszony said:
None of them would be valid if the general quality was KEPT as high as it should. It wasn't; and now poor drawings are "acceptable" and "valid" as you say.
If the general quality being kept "as it should" means those images are too bad to be here, where exactly is the line, and where would all "sub-par" art go?
I don't see any of gladwort's example as being poor.
MyrMindservant said:
Janitors' occupation is to approve post they like, not to remove posts they personally don't like.
Good thing that's not happening then. Flagging =/= to deletion remember. Also everyone can flag, so I don't see why Janitor+ types shouldn't be able to as well.
Sigfried666 said:
If the general quality being kept "as it should" means those images are too bad to be here, where exactly is the line, and where would all "sub-par" art go?
Lines are personal, all we can do is push and pull until everyone is as not unhappy as possible. Frankly it's not our problem where art we don't want goes.
Mysterio006 said:
Don't forget that if you like what you see, even if it is on the verge of being deleted you can always bookmark it on pixiv or whatever source site it comes from.
You don't even have to do that, really. Deletion simply makes posts less visible, you can still easily search and browse them, favorite them, download them, etc.
Aristocrat said:
Deletion makes them inaccessible to regular members, doesn't it? Only Priv/Builder and up can see them.
You can see them, it's just better hidden: you have to click on the [Size: width x height (filesize)] link and the image will be shown. The only drawback is that unlike Priv+ users you can't read the translations directly (you'll have to click on the [Notes] link and deduce by yourself).
We got a civil war brewing, mods.
Kikimaru said:
post #995614We got a civil war brewing, mods.
Personally, I think most of the stuff under that artist should go. While some people might argue about the amount of "effort or detail" put in, I think most people would agree that the quality falls short of good.
Controversial doujin series like these often get through the queue due to the 'continuous series approval' argument and when someone finally decides to stop it, the usual outbursts of "There are worst quality posts you should be deleting first" start up. Really, I hate to point fingers but most of those posts were only approved in the first place by Not_One_of_Us who has a precedence in subpar approvals.
Kikimaru said:
I've gotten to the stage myself where I just upload whatever the hell, since most of it gets archived on other Boorus anyway.
Comments like those don't help either, though it has a valid point. If users have a problem with posts being deleted because of a tightening of standards, they can move to other sites and trade moderation for their posts.
cleartailcat said:
Really, I hate to point fingers but most of those posts were only approved in the first place by Not_One_of_Us who has a precedence in subpar approvals.
I was the one who initially approved those, though 4 months ago after it was brought up on the deletion request thread I had changed my mind on it and supported deleting them since I felt the art was progressively getting worse and the images in the pool were interlocked in story and so couldn't independently stand on their own.
NWF_Renim said:
I was the one who initially approved those, though 4 months ago after it was brought up on the deletion request thread I had changed my mind on it and supported deleting them since I felt the art was progressively getting worse and the images in the pool were interlocked in story and so couldn't independently stand on their own.
Which goes to show I shouldn't throw blame to where I can't see. My apologies.
I do understand the discussion, but wasn't the point of the topic to determine if tere is flag abuse and, if positive, to find ways to prevent it?
The lines between bad art and good art will sometimes get really blurry, and discussions like that one (wich I am taking part of...) will happen as long as people have the right to flag.
Perhaps that is part of the right the users were given. The right to speak will generate discussion.
But determinign if aome behaviours might be considered abuse of that right is important.
Defining the line between good and bad art is not. For it will be impossible.
(Altough, bad art does exist, and is being eventually flagged whenever it slips thorugh the approvers eyes.)
cleartailcat said:
Controversial doujin series like these often get through the queue due to the 'continuous series approval' argument and when someone finally decides to stop it, the usual outbursts of "There are worst quality posts you should be deleting first" start up.
To be fair the rule in general is not intended to be a get out of jail free card.
If the manga is new and only a few images are approved (more currently being drawn) the "rule" really should not be used.
Either people are not being critical enough initially or the manga itself has some value.
Hell even with the rule in place people should still be looking at the series and question if it is really worth the initial approvals. The touhou black candy manga is a good example.
Anyways there will always be exceptions.
Back on topic I agree janitor and up should be able to see who flags what but not below.
I don't really find any of sukedai's images to be appreciably worse than any before or after it. I don't know if that makes them Danbooru quality, but they're comparable to most comic series here, frankly. The problem I find is that whether they are of acceptable quality or not, "Terrible art" , the reason given for flagging most of his images, is a terrible excuse to get them into the deletion queue for other, even more subjective reasons such as taste, artistic merit and how "disgusting" they are, which is how this whole mess got started in the first place. I don't believe it was ever about the quality, but now someone is, to me, manipulating the system and using that as a reason to get them out.
Updated
I was the one that did all the "Terrible Art" flags by the by. I want to respond to you UnderneathTheWaves, but I'm not exactly sure what your issue with the flags is. Is it that they're subjective, that they seem to be pretending to be objective, or that I have some ulterior motive?
Basically, all three.
Because this all started with arguments over tastefulness and fetishes, with the subjective quality debate only entering later, it raised my suspicions about system abuse when someone came along and flagged multiple pictures with the short "Terrible art" excuse with no explanation or reasoning about what was actually wrong with them.
It seemed to me like someone who wanted to get the pictures into the moderation queue not for a review, but because the pictures are admittedly borderline, to fast track them towards deletion mostly because of matters of morals and disagreeable fetishes.
If you really feel they're not up to standard, you can do that and I wouldn't care, but recognize that it's not a good idea to use such descriptors as "terrible" in the midst of a heated debate over an artist and not explain yourself in a flag. It's only natural that someone will think someone else has ulterior motives. It's just not smart flagging.
UnderneathTheWaves said:
but recognize that it's not a good idea to use such descriptors as "terrible" in the midst of a heated debate over an artist and not explain yourself in a flag. It's only natural that someone will think someone else has ulterior motives.
You're right, though I don't believe is was that heated when I made my flags. I could've been more descriptive, I just tend to keep stuff short and sweet. Clearly not a good idea this time. Like I said though, somewhere around here, I simply don't think they're good enough to be here. Believe it or not, that's what it is.