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it always seems to be such a great idea to hide stuff from users, i mean it's not like the users are of any use or anything, they're just there, being users, useless and stuff. thus they shouldn't even be aware of what's going on on the website. the forums should be made janitor+ as well imo.
Nials said:
it always seems to be such a great idea to hide stuff from users, i mean it's not like the users are of any use or anything, they're just there, being users, useless and stuff. thus they shouldn't even be aware of what's going on on the website. the forums should be made janitor+ as well imo.
You're overreacting with your sarcasm.
Members can't see the mod queue. A successful flag returns the image to the mod queue. Put that way, it seems obvious to hide flags from all members but the flagger. The problem here is moderating flags, so it should be left to the mods.
I suspect we'd be having these exact same problems with uploads if the mod queue were visible to everyone as well.
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UnderneathTheWaves said:
Hiding flag reasons also would probably be for the best.
Absolutely not. Just how do you expect normal users to learn how to flag properly if you hide the reasons? This will only result with even more stupidly flagged pictures in mod queue in the future.
I suspect we'd be having these exact same problems with uploads if the mod queue were visible to everyone as well.
And what exactly are the "problems" now we have, may I ask?
Personal bashing for flagging pictures - that was the real problem, problem we've finally dealt with by hiding flaggers usernames. Discussing what and how should be flagged is not a problem - as long as it's done in civilized manner. Yes, you may find many comments boring or repetetive or even outright stupid, but in the end they do provide so needed (especially for beginners) feedback from community.
UnderneathTheWaves said:
Hiding flag reasons also would probably be for the best.
What the fuck?
If a picture is flagged, the reason better be damn well explicitly stated above the image so that people don't start a shitstorm over "WELL NUTHINS RONG WIFF DIS PICTUR". The reason that flagger names are hidden is to prevent harassment from members who misbehave. There is no such equivalent rationale to hide flag reasons.
Serlo said:
Members can't see the mod queue.
Does status:pending not work for regular members? I remember seeing blue-framed images before my rank change.
Yeah, I can't see how hiding flag reasons could be a good idea in any shape or form. People already get riled up for vague reasons, how would they then respond to what they see as no reason at all? Plus what richie said above about discussions and feedback, as long as it stays civil there's no reason to gut it.
I mean, when the flagging ability was first made available, most flags were just "Quality check" or "Poorly drawn". Though those still show up, I'm also seeing more descriptive flags than before pointing out exactly what the flagger finds problematic.
Aristocrat said:
Does status:pending not work for regular members? I remember seeing blue-framed images before my rank change.
That's all the mod queue is? I take it all back then. Keep things as they are, with flag names kept only for Janitors and up.
Edit: To clarify, yes, as a member I can see blue border images.
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Don't hide the flag reason. The discussions caused by them are overall good. Discussions can generate good feedback overall.
And it is necessary for users to see which pictures are being flagged for low quality and below standard art so that the line between good and bad quality can be made a bit clearer.
Hiding the reason will only made useless discussion on flag abuse arise way more often.
Aristocrat said:
Does status:pending not work for regular members? I remember seeing blue-framed images before my rank change.
I do remember being able to see blue-framed images for ever. Since I begun lurking around here, years ago. I tought all users could see them.
Well, fine, whatever. Not disavowing what I said, but it's something I'm not tied strongly to and said mostly in response to last night.
Anyway, it could force people to look at a picture more critically and spur discussion based on the merits of the picture as a whole instead of reacting to the flag itself or any particular charges. In an ideal world, I mean, not that I have any confidence in particular that this would happen.
Either way, mods seeing who flagged an image is a start, but something should still be done with that to discourage bad or inadequate, non-descriptive flagging.
Limit flagging to members who have 100 approved posts, a higher than 50% (or whatever) approve rate and/or 1000 tag entries?
I've often had the feeling that danbooru could greatly improve it's community if some basic statistical merit filtering was done, much like stackoverflow.com, but that's a rather pie in the sky thought.
Anelaid said:
Really, the only ones who even see why a post is flagged should be janitor+ as well, since most of the drama is from members seeing the reasons this time around. Just knowing that its flagged should be enough to make a good appeal if you think it has a redeeming quality.
There would have been a lot of drama if they reason was hidden. Yes it might have been worse due to the overly blunt reason (as it was written) but that could be fixed by having more descriptive reasons.
I really don't see it being much better if the reason is hidden. People would want to know why it was flagged and both sides would come up with their own wild reasons causing massive arguments based on that when the actual reason might have been something as simple jpeg artifacts.
Aristocrat said:
That would cause certain users like NWF Renim to become ineligible to flag posts.
In his case being a mod would I figure take precedence over any ratios.
Limit the ratio (best option) to regular members/priv.
Contrib and up should be able to flag under the current rules.
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Aristocrat said:
That would cause certain users like NWF Renim to become ineligible to flag posts.
Well obviously those figures or details weren't to be taken literally. Just something automated to force new members to do some work before they're let near other tools. Traditionally, when communities have gotten big, time has been used for that, but there are problems with it. Really you need to use total man-hours, then hand pick the ones that stand out at each level.
Sadly, danbooru wasn't written to be almost self-moderating and serve a massive community from the ground up, like stackoverflow; it was written for a community where everyone knew everyone. So many kinds of contribution aren't fully recorded by the software.
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Pyrolight said:
Limit the ratio (best option) to regular members/priv.Contrib and up should be able to flag under the current rules.
What about builders? By their very definition they’ve done some good work for Danbooru besides uploading and I do try to give detailed reasons for my flags.
Kikimaru said:
I've gotten to the stage myself where I just upload whatever the hell, since most of it gets archived on other Boorus anyway.
Unfortunately, several contributors seem to do the same and that’s where I see the reason for many short flag reasons whithin a short time. Some users upload several dozen posts with a minimum amount of tags in just a few minutes. If the user had a bad day or something and uploaded a bunch of sub-par stuff among that, going through them and criticising every post thoroughly to write detailed flag reasons would take significantly longer than tho uploading took. While I don’t think short flag reasons are good, I can see why some users would use them when batch-flagging batch uploads to get them through the mod-queue.
Aren't we starting to overthink matters a little now?
Improper flaggers can be identified and disciplined by the mods again. Vague flags also have their purpose as mentioned above and are sometimes sufficient for really bad posts. Enforcing additional rules instead of simply encouraging more detailed flagging habits seems like it would only serve to hamper the purpose of the flagging system, and all because of a select few bad flags.
kittey said:
Unfortunately, several contributors seem to do the same and that’s where I see the reason for many short flag reasons whithin a short time. Some users upload several dozen posts with a minimum amount of tags in just a few minutes. If the user had a bad day or something and uploaded a bunch of sub-par stuff among that, going through them and criticising every post thoroughly to write detailed flag reasons would take significantly longer than tho uploading took. While I don’t think short flag reasons are good, I can see why some users would use them when batch-flagging batch uploads to get them through the mod-queue.
I actually meant that I upload art that's "above average, but not SUPER great", or for niche series that I'm certain will be overlooked. I'm past caring highly if mods will approve them.
I also try to limit myself to 2-3 tag runs per picture, and with all the tools we have now I can get most tags correct first-time.
kittey said:
What about builders? By their very definition they’ve done some good work for Danbooru besides uploading and I do try to give detailed reasons for my flags.
I was basing the level off who is Carte blanche posting powers.
I thought builders mod queue wise were at the same level as privileged.
Basically anyone without a queue can flag and anyone with a queue can't.
Builders are subject to the queue as well.
As said before, I see little benefit to be had from excluding the bulk of the user base from a system that was put into place to allow the user base to help the mods catch whatever slips past the cracks. You might as well take away the ability to appeal as well, since it has the same purpose and far more people misusing it.
Arrei said:
As said before, I see little benefit to be had from excluding the bulk of the user base from a system that was put into place to allow the user base to help the mods catch whatever slips past the cracks. You might as well take away the ability to appeal as well, since it has the same purpose and far more people misusing it.
I feel both appeal and flag should be somewhat restricted. The are fairly powerful tools that most basic users don't really understand the use of.
Maybe contrib+ and any users with a high ratio of approvals (obvious problem would be doing manga fills) with say 30 posts minimum.
You would then at least be reasonably sure the person flagging/appealing is not just wasting peoples time.
