Posted under General
NWF_Renim said:
I also don't see a reason to delete post #252480. I wouldn't have approved it, but I don't think it's bad enough for outright deletion.
Which counts as a negative vote for the purposes of this thread, since it's a post that can't be flagged normally due to Seem. Unless we get somebody who says "I'd approve it", the result of a vote with only "delete" or "meh" votes is still "delete".
Anelaid said:
I don't see how post #2 can be typical for that artist but be defend able on that merit even if it is skillful and that is okay to use that reasoning but post #252480, being a typical post for that artist also, and having that being a negative mark against it, seems a bit odd. If touhou really changes the quality of an image that much, I think something is skewed.
The thing is it's bad AND a YATBT (yet another boring toho). We have an excessive number of these due to how stupidly popular touhou is. Think of it as "naruto fanart", just for pixiv and not dA. There will always be tonnes of people who draw their dime a dozen th/naruto doodles and post them on the tubes not because they should, but because th/naruto are popular.
I don't understand what stupidly popular means, or what boring touhou is as well.
My issue with your reasoning is that whether or not it includes touhou characters is linked to what type of quality is allowed and seems to be misleading. There is more poor touhou-related fanart because there is more people producing it, requiring stricter guidelines for the art because there is more of it is flawed, to me, and is an arbitrary determination of quality that must be made up for in other respects. Pixiv is Japanese Deviant Art, I understand that, but judging a work harsher because it includes cirno and not an original character is arbitrary.
But moving aside the discussion on touhou, I see nothing that is offensively bad in that post, even if it is average, that would require deleting it.
Regardless of what people's feelings of approving Touhou related art is, deciding to delete it outright is beyond what I agree with.
Evidently this is derivative_work, on top of poorly drawn. It can't be flagged, however.
Anelaid said:
Pixiv is Japanese Deviant Art, I understand that, but judging a work harsher because it includes cirno and not an original character is arbitrary.
It's not harsher. This is not a well-drawn pic, and I wouldn't approve it regardless of what copyright it came attached with. But there's comparatively more bad touhou art floating around, because touhou is comparatively more popular. Again, think of all the Bleach/Naruto/DBZ/Sailor Moon crap you've seen published on the western tubes. It's the same phenomenon at play here, and I single out touhou not because I don't like touhou (I do, enough to have 52 pages of favs tagged touhou), but because touhou is the current mass craze. And with Sturgeon's law being what it is, we see disproportionately more crap touhou art slipping through than other crap art.
Moving to the specifics of post #252480, take a look at:
It's not an eye-burningly bad post, but it doesn't deserve an approval.
There's no specific site-wide policy on being more demanding of Touhou because of its massive popularity. But individual janitors and mods can of course be stricter about Touhou if they want. I know I am, to a degree, though perhaps not as much as others.
Generally speaking, I would use this thread not to single out utterly "average" art like post #252480 but rather clearly bad art that many people agree violates quality standards and that has been reapproved inappropriately.
I think the current discussion is trying to figure out if post #252480 falls under "clearly bad" or "average", really. 葉月's list of flaws with it heavily threw my opinion on that towards "bad", at least.
I really do have to take your word about the western tubes, I'm guessing that's the British term for internet or something, since I don't go to art-oriented sites beyond danbooru that much.
Sturgeon's law is fine, but you can't use it to have different standards for a more popular work, to my knowledge, since its a universal law.
I'm not objecting to a discussion on its quality, I'm arguing on copyright be in anyway relevant to judging a picture.
jxh2154 said:
Generally speaking, I would use this thread not to single out utterly "average" art like post #252480 but rather clearly bad art that many people agree violates quality standards and that has been reapproved inappropriately.
That's one way forward about it, though I in general agree with the sentiment that "as many as X% posts would need to be flagged" (I dunno if it's 25%, it might be 15%, or 10%, it just feels like a significant portion), and I don't think it's a bad thing. Too many "meh" posts slipping through is the big danger of having a high number of people with approval powers, and that easily leads to the lowering of the overall quality standard over time. Thus periodically purging old crap is necessary just to maintain the same quality level.
Anelaid said:
Sturgeon's law is fine, but you can't use it to have different standards for a more popular work, to my knowledge, since its a universal law.
Again, there's no different standards. That pic is not good, touhou or not. And many touhou posts are, with "many touhou posts" being numerically greater than other "many X posts", because touhou is more popular than any other X currently.
葉月 said:
Rakugaki != oekakiThe latter is a type of drawing software, the former is basically the word for "sketch, doodle".
I know that. It's just that speaking of "typical quality" about rakugaki sounds kinda weird given the art variety it covers (so oekaki made more sense *shrugs*).
Anelaid said:
I really do have to take your word about the western tubes, I'm guessing that's the British term for internet or something
(It's a meme.)
Cyberia-Mix said:
I know that. It's just that speaking of "typical quality" about rakugaki sounds kinda weird given the art variety it covers (so oekaki made more sense *shrugs*).
Not really. Shinjidude said rakugaki, because that's what post #2 is: it's a doodle by a competent artist. Many oekaki posts are also rakugaki, but by far not all, and oekaki is not the only medium for doodles either.
The point of rakugaki-type drawings is that they're not meant to be finished or polished. But that doesn't mean they can't be good art. In fact a good artist's doodle is far superior to a mediocre one's most-polished work. (Preemptive strike: if anybody's wondering how that works, think of Leonardo da Vinci study sketches, which are equally valuable and prized as his fully-finished paintings).
(It's a meme.)
葉月 said:
The point of rakugaki-type drawings is that they're not meant to be finished or polished. But that doesn't mean they can't be good art. In fact a good artist's doodle is far superior to a mediocre one's most-polished work.
I precisely agree with that, which is why I say "typical rakugaki quality" sounded weird given doodles range in quality/interest just as much as other types of works (at least for me - oekaki by comparison would generally have more constraints).
葉月 said:
The point of rakugaki-type drawings is that they're not meant to be finished or polished. But that doesn't mean they can't be good art. In fact a good artist's doodle is far superior to a mediocre one's most-polished work.
This is exactly what I meant. Judging incomplete or intentionally quick sketches by the exact same quality metrics as polished images is about the same as using bad_proportions as a serious complaint against chibi characters.
Images featuring distinctive styles need to be gauged against the norm for those styles. By saying that post #2 is of average quality for rakugaki styled images, I'm saying it's relatively unexceptional: not particularly good, but also not particularly bad or deserving of being flagged or deleted.
jxh2154 said:
Generally speaking, I would use this thread not to single out utterly "average" art like post #252480 but rather clearly bad art that many people agree violates quality standards and that has been reapproved inappropriately.
I strongly second this. This thread will be far more effective if it is only used to nominate egregious posts, or those there is a strong consensus or argument against.
Nominating images starting from order:score_asc makes a heck of a lot more sense than starting from order:id_asc. At least with low scored images, you know there is a fairly strong consensus against the image.
I would also suggest that anyone nominating an image provide relatively concrete reasons for the nomination. Simply saying "By the way, what about post #????", is not a particularly convincing argument. This is the same idea as flagging, and in that case we require an explicit reason.
Updated
Can we delete all the images from the first page of order:score_asc atm? Namely
post #446135 post #574061 post #616169 post #458018
post #464450 post #672499 post #478410 post #456335
...
They really hurt the eyes.
post #456335 and post #616169 have already been deleted.
post #458018 and post #574061 have gone through the mod queue twice and have been approved by two different janitors on each occasion. Both posts are a bit controversial. I'm not sure where I stand with regards to those two post.
post #478410 - I wouldn't mind seeing it go.
post #446135 - I'm slightly in favour of keeping it.
post #464450 - The facial imperfections are an artistic choice, not a lack of drawing ability. I say keep it.
post #672499 - No comment
In the future, please only present one post at a time as stated in the thread guidelines.
Yeah, I understand how inconvenient it would be, but keep it at one post at a time, and if you're going to add more than one, format in such a way that each one has an explanation as to why it should be deleted. I am willing to make an exception if there is just a lot of posts at one time that are horrible, but really try to limit it to one at a time.
edit: I updated the first post to be more clear.
Updated
I'd like to do it in batch in these specific cases, i.e. asking if any janitor/moderator/admin feel strongly wanting to keep these shitty images or else I'll delete them. Scores and favs do nothing in my assessment of quality, but the champions of order:score_asc are self-explanatory repulsive. I don't want to waste albert's bandwidth posting here 20 times in a row to ask.
Otherwise for random bad posts, it's necessary to ask each one separately.
