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howto:named_outfits wiki (formerly "WIP Guide to Gacha Game Tagging")

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blindVigil said:

It doesn't seem to be a universally accepted policy. Someone's currently trying to nuke Honkai's battlesuit tags, and those are for playable alts, not skins.

So, maybe we should start there, strictly for the sake of clarity.

  • Are we tagging gacha game skins?
  • If so, how are we doing it?

I think at this point may as well throw the "gacha" out of the window.
Elsword has both character "alts" (in brackets because they're not truly alts, like Honkai i believe) and skins, this isn't something gacha-only.

blindVigil said:

  • Are we tagging gacha game skins?
  • If so, how are we doing it?

To answer the first question, I'll reiterate the view I stated in the Fate-centric thread, albeit ignoring the Fate-specific problems: I don't see a particular reason to tag gacha costumes when we don't tag alternate outfits in other media. We don't tag Suzumiya Haruhi's Disappearance-specific outfit as Suzumiya Haruhi (Kouyouen High School) (nor Koizumi), we don't tag Kaname Madoka's magical girl form as Kaname Madoka (Magical Girl) (nor any of the other magical girls), we don't tag Raphtalia as Raphtalia (Swimsuit) for fanart depicting her in her canonical swimsuit, so on, so forth. They're still, ultimately, the same character, and a character_tag + official_alternate_costume, provided the latter became widely used and tagged, would be enough to do it.

To answer the second question if the answer to the first is yes, then the way it is done for Azur Lane with chartags looks to me the easiest, convenient way to go about it.

Astolfo said:

They're still, ultimately, the same character, and a character_tag + official_alternate_costume, provided the latter became widely used and tagged, would be enough to do it.

What would be done for characters with multiple official alternate costumes, then? They'd potentially be unsearchable for regular-level users, and in certain cases there aren't specific enough tags to distinguish them even extended search capabilities.

Astolfo said:

To answer the first question, I'll reiterate the view I stated in the Fate-centric thread, albeit ignoring the Fate-specific problems: I don't see a particular reason to tag gacha costumes when we don't tag alternate outfits in other media. We don't tag Suzumiya Haruhi's Disappearance-specific outfit as Suzumiya Haruhi (Kouyouen High School) (nor Koizumi), we don't tag Kaname Madoka's magical girl form as Kaname Madoka (Magical Girl) (nor any of the other magical girls), we don't tag Raphtalia as Raphtalia (Swimsuit) for fanart depicting her in her canonical swimsuit, so on, so forth. They're still, ultimately, the same character, and a character_tag + official_alternate_costume, provided the latter became widely used and tagged, would be enough to do it.

To answer the second question if the answer to the first is yes, then the way it is done for Azur Lane with chartags looks to me the easiest, convenient way to go about it.

My counter to this is that most forms of media don't name their alternate outfits. That's mostly a game thing, barring exceptions. Yoko Littner's swimsuit she wears in only a single episode doesn't have some fancy official name. It's just a swimsuit. Sirius's swimsuit is officially called Midsummer Seirios, giving it a more official feel than simply being a girl in a swimsuit. The design is also distinct and recognizable.

As for official alternate costume, it becomes significantly less useful the more skins a character has and the more populated those skins become. If gen tags were your only option, you'd end up using something other than that tag to find the specific design you wanted, which may not always be a reliable method.

ルーミア said:

What would be done for characters with multiple official alternate costumes, then? They'd potentially be unsearchable for regular-level users, and in certain cases there aren't specific enough tags to distinguish them even extended search capabilities.

They wouldn't be unsearchable, but they WOULD be lumped in under one singular "official alternate outfit" search, much like character + alternate_costume currently is. This is already currently the case for characters with several official outfits outside of gacha media, I suppose.
It's already the case even in gacha media even, with an outfit like post #3118015 not having a specific tag because it's simply an official promo outfit. (And no, I'm not saying it should be getting its own tag.)

blindVigil said:

My counter to this is that most forms of media don't name their alternate outfits. That's mostly a game thing, barring exceptions. [...]

As for official alternate costume, it becomes significantly less useful the more skins a character has and the more populated those skins become. If gen tags were your only option, you'd end up using something other than that tag to find the specific design you wanted, which may not always be a reliable method.

That is a fair point regarding the names, upon checking it seems like we give tags to outfits in both League of Legends and Overwatch which renders my "this is only a gacha thing" point moot.
For your second point, characters in non-game media with several official outfits currently don't get a tag for every outfit, they simply get a character tag, and alternate costume. But as per the line just above it's kind of irrelevant if this is how we do it for video games.

So! To go back to it, if we're tagging alternate costumes separately, then the Azur Lane way seems to be best, which I believe is character_(skin)_(franchise)? Remains to be settled on whether this is a good standard as well as how best to adapt it to various gachas and their specificities, Fate aside.

With the risk of bringing the discussion back to Fate again, I want to two cents. I think that the best solution is that if it's in the summon pool it should be count as as a character tag, since both the game mechanics and the fans treat them as such. With that in mind here is my idea for a tagging system

  • Characters with no variations just tagged with their Spirit Origin name and the '(Fate)' qualifier if necessary (e.g. [[suzuka gozen (fate)]), the same goes for True names that used to be considered spoilers get treated the same, since type-moon/Aniplex and the fans don't seem to care any more, so lancer (fate/zero) becomes Diarmuid Ua Duibhne (Fate)
  • For characters with multiple summonable variants, the base character tag gets treated as an umbrella tag and the variants get tier own character tag in the form of <character_name>_(<holiday>_<class>_<modifier>), yes as a single qualifier so we don't get silly things like (swimsuit)_(foreigner)_(alter)_(lily). Since people unfamiliar with the game (nor the game doesn't itself for that matter) doesn't really which is the "default" form, the default form gets treated as just another variant with just an indication in the wiki for main tag and the respective variant tag to indicate that it is the "default". With that in mind the oh so beloved Artoria would look like this:
  • In the case that a Craft Essence depicts an character actual identifiable character the character gets their own tag with the same naming scheme (i.e Marie Antoinette (Fate) (Alter). In the hypothetical case that the character gets introduced with a completely different appearence the old tag can just be renamed and have the '(Craft Escence)' qualifier added
  • For new characters that get introduced with just their Classs and no True Name their class becomes the name with the specific series as a qualifier (i.e Lancer (Fate/Latest Spinoff) if their true name gets revealed down the lane and gets the usual 20 variants, it gets renamed to the above mentioned rules

This system has also the advantage of being adaptable to other gachas, so perhaps Kancolle characters with remodels with vastly different designs could get separate tags i.e Yuudachi (Kantai Collection) and Yuudachi (Kantai Collection) (Kai Ni), of course there would be special cases like Ro but those would have to be treated on a game-by-game basis

Also, as several others have pointed, for games with a more sensible gacha system, there is a still a need to standardize skin tagging, since there is no single system, so far we have some games tagging them as characters (Azur Lane), general tags (FGO, some but not all costumes in Love Live! School Idol Festival and All Stars or *not tagged at all* (kancolle). I for one vote to have them as general tags (so belfast (shopping with the head maid) (azur lane) becomes just (shopping with the head maid) (azur lane) unless a situation similar to FGO arises in which a similar system could be used.

Updated

This thread seems to be largely FGO now...

Astolfo said:

They wouldn't be unsearchable, but they WOULD be lumped in under one singular "official alternate outfit" search, much like character + alternate_costume currently is. This is already currently the case for characters with several official outfits outside of gacha media, I suppose.
It's already the case even in gacha media even, with an outfit like post #3118015 not having a specific tag because it's simply an official promo outfit. (And no, I'm not saying it should be getting its own tag.)

Yes, and I think the way it currently is kind of sucks to be honest. I'm not sure about post #3118015 specifically, but if it's just some one-off outfit used in a promotional artwork, I'd agree with it not deserving its own tag. But for games which release alternate (and often named) skins for in-game use, I would argue they're prominent enough to deserve their own tags.

For naming the tags, I agree with the precedent set by Azur Lane (`character_(skin)_(franchise)` to be clear).

Astolfo said:

So! To go back to it, if we're tagging alternate costumes separately, then the Azur Lane way seems to be best, which I believe is character_(skin)_(franchise)? Remains to be settled on whether this is a good standard as well as how best to adapt it to various gachas and their specificities, Fate aside.

ルーミア said:

For naming the tags, I agree with the precedent set by Azur Lane (`character_(skin)_(franchise)` to be clear).

This is my preference as well. I don't like making them gen tags at all. General tags are for general things, an alternate skin for a specific character that no one else wears is not a "general thing". Something like Midsummer Seirios (azur lane) would remove the connection the outfit has to the only character that wears it. It wouldn't show up in autofill when searching/tagging Sirius posts, and as evazion pointed out in one of the other threads, gen tags are a lot easier to overlook, making them more prone to being undertagged because they just don't get seen.

blindVigil said:

This is my preference as well. I don't like making them gen tags at all. General tags are for general things, an alternate skin for a specific character that no one else wears is not a "general thing". Something like Midsummer Seirios (azur lane) would remove the connection the outfit has to the only character that wears it. It wouldn't show up in autofill when searching/tagging Sirius posts, and as evazion pointed out in one of the other threads, gen tags are a lot easier to overlook, making them more prone to being undertagged because they just don't get seen.

True

Mysterious_Uploader said:

You said it yourself, we tag what we see, not what we know. artoria pendragon (lancer), a character with large breasts, long hair and green eyes, with different clothes, can't be compared to saber. The body type is different, the face is different (no, it's not just artstyle, she's supposed to be the goddess Rhongomyniad in Saber's body), the weapon is different and the hairstyle is different. Aesthetically, they're completely diffferent.

Why are we even discussing the reason behind characters' existence? We're derailing, the character tags won't get removed or merged.
Half of this thread are people complaining on how many alts there are and their reason of existence, if it's justified or not...
They exist, nothing you can't do about it to prevent their existance. This topic's purpose should be to catalogue them. (Yes, swimsuit servants will get their own tag, just like we tag costume variants or different skins are tagged on other gachas.)

Anyways, this is turning out to be a fate-centric issue. Either work on a gacha standard and work on fate's standard basing yourself off of that, or go back to forum #17356.

@Mysterious_Uploader All right. I've given up on my stance and will work according to the logic you and the others discussed in topic #17356. Arguments like these are probably the reason why things have become so convoluted in the first place, so I'll just agree to disagree so we can continue making progress. It would be a shame if things reached an impasse because we argued about this forever, especially when Fate desperately needs such a massive clean-up effort.

Anyway, I spent the afternoon cleaning up the OP and the WIP article so that Fate is no longer mentioned whatsoever, and to make it as impartial and generalized a guide as possible. There are some finer points that I hope other users can address should I turn it into a wiki. I also decided to expand on this not just being a gacha game problem, but that it extends into console and MMO games due to things like DLC having a similar business practice.

blindVigil said:

My counter to this is that most forms of media don't name their alternate outfits. That's mostly a game thing, barring exceptions. Yoko Littner's swimsuit she wears in only a single episode doesn't have some fancy official name. It's just a swimsuit. Sirius's swimsuit is officially called Midsummer Seirios, giving it a more official feel than simply being a girl in a swimsuit. The design is also distinct and recognizable.

Thanks for the examples. I think I'm finally starting to get what you guys are talking about. I'm a visual learner, and am terrible at understanding things unless I have visual examples as references. I used those instances in the article, as well as added one of my own.

On a somewhat related note with Yoko Littner though, I'm going through the posts to see if there's a better image of her yellow sarong bikini she wears in that episode, and I came across the tag Space Yoko which is apparently being treated as a variant for her. I can't find any sources that this costume is indeed named Space Yoko, or if someone came along and made this tag on their own. Other names I see thrown around for it are Yoko (Space), and Space Outfit.

Updated

Benit149 said:

I also decided to expand on this not just being a gacha game problem, but that it extends into console and MMO games due to things like DLC having a similar business practice.

Why do we have to keep discussing capitalism? We aren't tagging because of business practices, we're tagging because those designs exist and have a name. The reason behind their existance goes beyond the scope of this discussion, or Danbooru as a whole.

Anyway, I spent the afternoon cleaning up the OP and the WIP article so that Fate is no longer mentioned whatsoever

There was no reason to go that far. If Fate fits as example, then it works.

Updated

Benit149 said:

Anyway, I spent the afternoon cleaning up the OP and the WIP article so that Fate is no longer mentioned whatsoever, and to make it as impartial and generalized a guide as possible. There are some finer points that I hope other users can address should I turn it into a wiki.

Your clean up ended up causing a redundancy in your current draft - because you used a skin (sirius_(midsummer_seirios)_(azur_lane)) for "DEFAULT + ONE VARIANT", it basically makes "ONE CHARACTER, ONE SKIN" redundant.

Perhaps an example from Honkai Impact 3rd would be better here? @ManularChimera4 is still discussing that in his thread on the topic though.

I'd also suggest this change instead:

......but calls it Retrofit; Girls Frontline similarly has this, resulting in MOD3s. Meanwhile, Idolmaster has named thematic...

Depending on how the costume tagging discussion goes, the Labyrinth of the Dark tag may be rendered redundant, because its main purpose (from what I can guess) was just to make it easier to find those costumes in particular, and if they end up getting all chartags (which they have), then there'd be no reason for it. So it may be safer to just not mention it.

I made the changes as suggested, and decided to release it as a wiki for anyone to edit: howto:named_outfits. I don't care for the wiki name, but it was the best thing I could think of.

As far as I'm concerned, I believe I've reached my limit to what I can contribute to this discussion, and am thus going to excuse myself from this thread. You guys can change the wiki as you see fit, or just get rid of it if you don't like it.

Mexiguy said:

Totally agree, specially with the ones refering to Artoria.

Damian0358 said:

Your clean up ended up causing a redundancy in your current draft - because you used a skin (sirius_(midsummer_seirios)_(azur_lane)) for "DEFAULT + ONE VARIANT", it basically makes "ONE CHARACTER, ONE SKIN" redundant.

It's also not accurate, as Sirius has at least three skins.

Perhaps an example from Honkai Impact 3rd would be better here? @ManularChimera4 is still discussing that in his thread on the topic though.

I would actually appreciate if someone else wanted to weigh in over there, I think I've said everything I have to say on the matter. I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough on Honkai or our Honkai tags to resolve whatever might need fixing with them.

Mysterious_Uploader said:

I think at this point may as well throw the "gacha" out of the window.
Elsword has both character "alts" (in brackets because they're not truly alts, like Honkai i believe) and skins, this isn't something gacha-only.

In consideration of this, I took the liberty of changing the header "LIST OF GACHA GAMES" on the wiki page to "LIST OF GAMES WITH NAMED OUTFITS" and adding Elsword and Idolmaster to the list. There are probably many others but they're not coming to mind, at least as something we currently tag named outfits for.

7HS said:

In consideration of this, I took the liberty of changing the header "LIST OF GACHA GAMES" on the wiki page to "LIST OF GAMES WITH NAMED OUTFITS" and adding Elsword and Idolmaster to the list. There are probably many others but they're not coming to mind, at least as something we currently tag named outfits for.

We tag named outfits for both Overwatch and League of Legends, I believe. At least some of them if not all of them.

I'm going to add a disclaimer that the wiki is still a WIP, and it hasn't been implemented yet.

That said, i think we should start from the beginning since the reception has been a bit mixed, and i feel like this is making things more complicated than they should be.

Given the fact that the wiki will seemingly orient itself around games in general, not just gacha games, a slight rewrite of the start might be necessary.

This is a guide on how to tag characters and their alternate outfits that appear in video games which have obtainable named outfits, specifically gacha-styled mobile games and computer games which have such functions.

Throughout recent years, there lacked a means of standardizing how alternate costumes for characters in games should be tagged on Danbooru, mainly those in gacha-styled games. The conventions that work for one title may not work so well for another, which then leads to inconsistencies and confusion, and other titles may have just ignored them entirely. The aim is to define why there is a difference between video game media and other forms of media when it comes to handling characters and named outfits, and then use already-existing tagging conventions and examples to clarify things. This process can then be standardized so that what works for one game can work for another, rather than users making up unique rules on a game-to-game basis that will wind up conflicting with each other.

Though most games do have fairly standard/consistent systems in place, discussion surrounding Fate/Grand Order has necessitated its distinction into its own separate discussion due to the unique circumstances surrounding how it releases characters and alternate outfits. This article, though it may reference that game, has minimized examples originating from it because of that. For specifically discussing tagging conventions for F/GO, please go to topic #17356 ("The Fate/Grand Retagging Project").

TERMINOLOGY

Gacha (ガチャ) is shorthand for gachapon (ガチャポン), which in itself is an alternate saying of gashapon (ガシャポン). Whatever the reading, this is a type of Japanese-produced vending machine that customers dispense money into, then they twist a crank and the machine dispenses a plastic egg containing a randomly-selected toy or prize. Usually this is one toy out of a collectible set, incentivizing customers to pay more to complete the collection. Gasha/gacha is the Japanese onomatopoeia for the sound of the crank being twisted, while pon is the sound of the toy dropping into the receptacle.

Similarly, a gacha video game is a branch of mobile gaming where players save up a fictional in-game currency, then use it to roll the virtual vending machine (think of spinning a slot machine or roulette wheel). What players roll for tend to be desired characters, character classes, weapons, vehicles, materials, add-ons or whatnot, depending on what the game offers. Additionally, non-gacha video games can have elements or systems which resemble gacha mechanics, whether it be monetized MMO-style loot boxes, social-network gaming microtransactions or modern PC-gaming loot crates (as developed from the FIFA series of games from 2008 onward, and popularized by Team Fortress 2 in 2010). These games may also have the option to directly purchase the given desired item. The majority of this discussion is going to cover characters and named outfits, since Danbooru is a character-based imageboard.

DANBOORU’S TAGGING GUIDELINES

Danbooru’s guidelines for separating everything with tags work somewhat differently for video games with gacha elements, due to the complex nature of gacha-styled mobile games, and how these kinds of games in general release characters, alternate costumes, and/or alternate forms. Though the article focuses largely on gacha-styled mobile games, due to the bulk of new releases originating from there, the guidelines and categories set aren't exclusive to them, as the conventions aren't either.

The crux of this article comes from when an already-released character is recycled and given a different costume. This then complicates tagging these alternate costumes because of a variety of reasons. While they may literally be the same character just wearing a different outfit, the game itself may treats them as an entirely different character by giving that costume an official name. Compounding things is that these characters may sometimes possess different skill sets, character classes, backstories and may even be categorized according to an in-game ID number, in such a case further proving that the developers intended for these alternate costumes to be treated as full characters, and not merely as skins (examples of these especially being found in Honkai Impact 3rd and Fate/Grand Order).

That last sentence is especially important for Danbooru’s purposes, particularly the phrase, "alternate costumes to be treated as full characters". When it comes to video games, that is how a named outfit should be treated here – with a character tag, not just treating it as the same character wearing a different outfit. For Danbooru’s purposes, this is called a variant. Other terms that can be used interchangeably are forms, versions, and alternate costumes, but this article will stick to the term variant for consistency's sake.

This has been a growing source of confusion in the last few years for one reason: Most forms of media don't name their alternate outfits. For a non-video game example, Yoko Littner's swimsuit (post #178763) that she wears in a single episode of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann doesn't have an official name attached to it; it's just a swimsuit. Another example is Tomoe Hotaru's black dress (post #2227732) that she frequently wears in Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon. The creators never assigned a name to it; it's just a dress she wears. Therefore, regardless if the costume comes from an anime, video game, movie, book, or other form of media, if the creators/developers don't give a name to an alternate outfit, then don't give it one here.

Some copyrights on Danbooru, notably Pokemon (anime), do sometimes tag individual sources if the art in question is based on it, such as Pokemon Sun and Moon episode #68, where the leads of the show end up wearing nurse outfits, and art ensuing from it. But in such an instance, the outfit itself still isn't tagged, but rather the episode itself is as to provide a convenient means of searching for that art.

Further discussion is needed regarding an outfit that was initially released without a name, then retroactively given a name later in the franchise's life, and whether or not it should be likewise retroactively tagged with a new character tag. While this is uncommon, it does happen.
- Benit149

In contrast, a gacha example would be Azur Lane's Sirius, who has a swimsuit that is officially named Midsummer Seirios. This means that it should be given the same treatment here by denoting a character tag (or chartag) to it.

That is the primary difference between tagging characters and outfits from gacha games and those from non-gacha titles. Official sources will name a character's alternate outfit, and Danbooru users then tag according to whatever conventions the official sources use. Akin to the example provided earlier with Pokemon, this is done for more convenient searching, as the end user can either specifically search for the given outfit, or filter it out from the search.

Some of my wording may be repetitious, but I think it's a good start.

Updated

Mysterious_Uploader said:

I'm going to add a disclaimer that the wiki is still a WIP, and it hasn't been implemented yet.

That said, i think we should start from the beginning since the reception has been a bit mixed, and i feel like this is making things more complicated than they should be.

Agree. I think that FGO aside, the main issue at hand whether skins/alternate outfits should be general tags or character tags and the naming scheme.

BTW Love Live! has two different gachas and each one handles costumes in different forms, vanilla School Idol Festival uses outfits from the groups' songs (which are already tagged with general tags for the most parts) and game-original outfits are released as collections with variants for each character (e.g. Happy Surprise collection), these collections aren't tagged for the most part and the few that have tags are non-indicative general tags like cafe_maid.

In All Stars non-song costume skins are specific to each character, so it's just a matter of reaching a concensus

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