Donmai

Explicit content vs. member accounts vs. we're not a porn site

Posted under General

albert said:
Words words words

I think the upload restriction is a good idea. It's currently 16 (I think) posts every 24 hours. I bet putting it down to 5 would cut down on mods' work big time. Then, every 20 posts they made without a deletion, they could have their limit raised by 5, or something.

Don't think a quiz would work though, since
1. as it's been proven time and time again, the standards on db aren't set in stone, and
2. People could just pass the "solutions" to the quiz around the internet in a heartbeat.

abcadeff said:
I think the upload restriction is a good idea. It's currently 16 (I think) posts every 24 hours. I bet putting it down to 5 would cut down on mods' work big time.

How many posts in the mod queue are from new members, generally? I have no idea what the stats for this site are regarding those things, but I somehow feel like most people don't upload things and instead join to see explicit material and then make inane comments. An upload limit might be somewhat helpful, but the more I consider this predicament, the more certain I am that there is no panacea, but rather a lot of small tweaks.

I agree that blocking explicit posts is not the most elegant solution, so I would also suggest alternate options if at all possible. (But keep it in mind as a last resort if "user quality" remains low.)

- Severely capping post uploads/comments for basic members, but increase the limit as more of their posts get approved. This is dependent on the mods/janitors being diligent, however.

I remember suggesting this a while ago, but it wasn't as big an issue back then: why not give a non-privileged uploader a set number of upload slots, and whenever one of their images gets approved (or deleted), it "clears" that upload slot? This would cripple bad uploaders since they would have to wait 3 days before they can upload new material (perhaps even causing them to consider their uploads more carefully), while good uploaders get more chance to prove their worth quickly without having to wait for the 16-image limit all the time (as very selective uploader, I can safely say you would run into that limit regularly). It's doubly good! You could even devise a system whereby the number of slots increases as they get more approved uploads...

[as always, I don't know how hard it would be to code this; also if someone suggested this already, sorry for repeating--I couldn't read all these posts as I was flying from country to country with limited internet during the bulk this thread]

スラッシュ said:
I remember suggesting this a while ago, but it wasn't as big an issue back then: why not give a non-privileged uploader a set number of upload slots, and whenever one of their images gets approved (or deleted), it "clears" that upload slot? [...] You could even devise a system whereby the number of slots increases as they get more approved uploads...

For the "system", you could have the upload slots start out at some much smaller minimum (1?), which increases by 1 with every approved post and decreases by X (1? 2?) with every rejected post (but never going outside some minimum and maximum).

Updated

Personally, I found danbooru during a time where my artistic endeavours needed a release. I worked on anime and realistic pictures, but found to have more fun experimenting and trying out new things in photoshop with anime pictures.
Danbooru held a huge amount of pictures in store that were so beautiful I did not see how I could change them to any better; saying that I most likely enjoy danbooru for the people who contribute pictures by great artists (even if it falls into categories like what or futa)

I'd not mind waiting a week or a month until I could see the newly uploaded ones, though I see the problem rather in the community instead of the system.
I don't want to denounce the moderation team, but I am convinced that with a hint of stricter mods it could work better.

And the flower talk: everyone likes something else, yada yada, some people just can't keep their mouths shut when they see something they don't, and others do like. "Oh zomg, huge penis on girl! You must be the gays"

PS: I like futa. :-*

kristallimeri said:
Or just give people who have posted n amount of unapproved images during a predefined period (a week, a month) a temporary upload ban. But maybe this is already being enforced manually by the moderation.

Not quite the same as what I suggested, but it is something worth considering as well. I don't know if other mods do this but I don't.

I support reducing upload limits. I think that would help reduce server load.

A cap on daily up/down votes for non-priveleged accounts would also be a good idea, as would some way to ensure that multiple votes for a single post do not come from the same user account. Perhaps that latter measure is already in place; if so, please disregard it.

I think one of the key things that should be done to improve the site is a decent tutorial (and I like the idea of mandating it for viewing when signing up for an account). As it stands, with there being nothing but the help pages... it's difficult to learn how to use Danbooru in any way other than casual browsing. Example: it took me quite a while to figure out how to use the tag blacklist.

Also, it would be nice to have a quick link to the forum on the front page. Otherwise, it's too easy to forget there is a forum here.

sgcdonmai said:
A cap on daily up/down votes for non-priveleged accounts would also be a good idea, as would some way to ensure that multiple votes for a single post do not come from the same user account. Perhaps that latter measure is already in place; if so, please disregard it.

All users can only vote once per image.

Yeah I'm still in strong favor of howto: pages and I will even offer to write them only if they can be implemented in such a way that people actually see them. (And yes that means making people read them right after/before signing up. I know it won't solve everything but I know for a fact from PMs that there are a lot of people who aren't malicious but simply confused on danbooru.)

Log said:
All users can only vote once per image.

Once per day, I think.

As for "reducing the mod's work," its silly to think that the size this moderation staff will always be suitable for danbooru's needs. I suggest recruiting more mods/janitors (which I guess is already in the process). Expanding the moderators is much smarter than limiting the growth of the site.

Why don't we have a system where we block new users from everything except viewing to begin with, and then every couple days (weeks?) of active use we give them a new ability (2 days after joining, they can post in the forums, 4 days after they can comment, after 6 days they can edit tags, then write translation notes, and eventually post).

We could give them a countdown until each ability comes online. When one does, they'll get a big message box (like when you get PM'ed) that informs them that the ability is ready to be enabled. To enable it they have to go though a instructional do's and dont's tutorial to let them know what site policies are and check that they agree with it. Maybe you could do what they do with some online forms and require them to answer questions about the feature.

This would allow us to slowly integrate new members, hopefully weeding out the chaff, and ensure that they read, understand, and agree to the policies. It would do this without affecting the people who are passive users and might otherwise be ostracized.

Shinjidude said:
Why don't we have a system where we block new users from everything except viewing to begin with, and then every couple days [...]

0xCCBA696 said:
I really doubt this will work. Remember ニコニコ動画's signup queue? AFAIK, nobody gave up on nico because their account would take a long time to activate, or had more restrictions the younger it was. They just waited. People looking for a "quick fap", though often disasters at understanding the atmosphere of this site and what is acceptable and unacceptable to do here, are still functioning human beings capable of using the internet. I wouldn't quite put it past them to be able to comprehend the concept of "the future".

@RaisingK

Yes, I read that. Requiring the count-down to be of only active days would require the users to get some experience with standing policies though. Also niconico never did anything to introduce the rules in a detailed form that couldn't just be clicked through.

Those were the crux of my suggestions. Block, wait, & release was already mentioned and shot down, and I agree that it would probably be ineffective.

Also, I wasn't proposing we block viewing explicit posts. People looking for a quick fap will be less motivated to sign up and deal with the waiting & rules if they only end up with privileges they don't need anyway.

RaisingK said:
quotes

you kinda skipped over Shinji's main points about "active use" and the "do's and dont's tutorial" at the end.

sure, there are still ways around that, but at least then we wouldn't have to warn users before banning because hey, they have no excuse for not knowing.

While ludicrous and unworkable I just had the idea of a reverse Minitokyo/Animepaper scheme - instead of getting download credit by uploading, you get upload credit for downloading (or favouriting) "quality" images (which is where it gets really unworkable as recent high quality images may score lower than some old junky images and people could vote up junk to increase it's worth etc.)

Something that might be more workable is an upload credit system where you have a set limit which slowly regenerates (say you start off with 20 and get a couple more added every day up to your starting quota) but you get an extra credit every time a previous upload is approved. The less of your images get approved, indicating bad judgement, the less you can upload - until your judgement improves and more images get approved.

This is long, but also important. Please read.

Okay, I see there's a huge confusion amongst people, including albert, as to what the goal is. The issue is that most of the proposals here try to solve the wrong problem.

First, what problem exactly do we have? It's that danbooru is perceived as a porn site, and people behave accordingly. Why's that? Because danbooru IS a great porn site:

1. It's vast
2. It's of good quality
3. It's well-tagged, thus also perfectly browsable by fetishes and preferences
4. It's easily accessible and linkable

#1-#3 are included in our goals, so we can't change that. This leaves only #4 for tweaks. Now why are fappers bad? Because they leak into the community and disrupt it. Thus to cure it, we can either get rid of fappers, or remove them from the community.

The solutions proposed fall into three categories:

1. Those that remove fappers
2. Those that remove them from the community
3. Those that do neither

So far, the majority of solutions are in #3. All the karma, points, scores, allowances and limits are worthless, because they do neither #1 nor #2. And all of them are harmful, because they hit good members as hard as bad ones. Please, stop proposing those. It's a well-known, yet rarely accepted basic management truth: you can't automate decency. EVERY score-based system you can come up with can and will be gamed, whether it's public or hidden, because that's what you make people do. You turn off their internal motivators and turn them into external ones, ones a machine judges. It will never work.

Besides, just think for a while what you're trying to do. You want to take all the bad people who register and make them into decent people? Why? That's just putting lipstick on a pig.

Now, having limited ourselves to methods from #1 and #2, we can categorise them along another axis -- how much burden do they put on moderators, good members, and bad members. Things like "moderate more", "do a quiz", "limit uploads", "limit comments" all put it on moderators, good members or both. Some of them even do that and don't put any burden or bad members!

What I'm getting at is, there have been exactly two proposals that don't have the above problems. One is スラッシュ's modification to the mod queue. It's good, because it exploits a mechanism we already have and depends only on the peer recognition we use anyway, so there's nothing to game in it. Additionally it makes life easier for good contributors and hinders bad ones, discouraging them.

The other one is, you guessed it, my original proposal. Here's why:

  • It removes linkability. That means you can't just drop a link to danbooru porn in an IRC channel or send to a friend to fap to, because porn is not accessible for non-members. That kills #4 on the porn site features list.
  • Normally the above would result in an immediate increased pressure on new signups, but we make it unattractive by not allowing fresh accounts to view porn. This should be stated in big, bold, red letters and easy language up-front, on a separate page before you're presented with the signup screen.

This effectively offloads the work of deciding who should join and stay from moderators onto users themselves. Because danbooru stops being attractive to people we don't want here, they will be unwilling to join themselves. That is a crucial point. They disappear because we stop being a place they want to be in. Notice how there's almost nothing to game. The grace period is fixed, so you can't try to cheat it. Of course you can sit it out if you're determined enough, but most people just won't bother. Even if you do, a ripened account becomes precious, so you sure as fuck ain't gonna share it in a channel or bugmenot where you risk getting it banned. The problem of bad users disappears because bad users disappear.

This is what we should be aiming at. We can't make bad users good or make them leave because we ask politely. Instead we should make it so that they stop coming of their own free will.

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