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To be honest, I don't understand what the hell was wrong with trap. Short, old enough a meme for everyone to know, easy to remember.
Offensive? Really? Did anyone actually complain about it? If it was a preemptive strike, so to say, you'll soon need to tag any passive gay character as 1girl, because "he identifies that way", and it's offensive to keep calling him "boy". (/sarcasm)
Anyway, if you don't like trap that much, why not male_crossdresser and female_crossdresser for reverse_trap then?
Type-kun said:
Anyway, if you don't like trap that much, why not male_crossdresser and female_crossdresser for reverse_trap then?
That wouldn't work in cases where the clothing is gender neutral like in post #1758390.
Toks said:
And the tag trap did not come from translating 男の娘, it's the opposite: the tag otoko_no_ko came from translating trap.
This is the first I've heard of this; can you cite a source?
psich said:
That wouldn't work in cases where the clothing is gender neutral like in post #1758390.
wouldn't androgynous be a better tag for that anyway
Gollgagh said:
wouldn't androgynous be a better tag for that anyway
It's a separate concept. See topic #5034.
Type-kun said:
Anyway, if you don't like trap that much, why not male_crossdresser and female_crossdresser for reverse_trap then?
Crossdressing is very different from traps. See what I said in forum #96880.
Bansho said:
This is the first I've heard of this; can you cite a source?
Source: we were using the trap tag for years prior to this. It was only just recently when jxh deemed trap "offensive" that it was translated to the japanese term otoko no ko.
I'm not saying that the japanese people who came up with otoko no ko were inspired by the english word trap if that's what you thought, I'm just talking about within the context of Danbooru's tags. The terms themselves were probably created independently of one another, with neither being a translation. Since like I said, this is not a concept unique to any one language.
Updated
There is nothing wrong with the word "trap" - it's about context. We know what the context is here, and it isn't trans-bashing. I have my doubts trans-haters would be browsing Danbooru in the first place and then also following the "trap" tag, expecting their definition of the word.
I also see nothing wrong with it. This thread is actually the first time I heard people saying it's offensive. I've even seen actual crossdressers and transgenders in imageboards and forums incorporate "trap" into their usernames, although that might not be representative of how the majority of people in those categories view the term.
That being said, and given how unlikely it is that jxh will change it back, how about we use androgynous_male in place of trap/otoko_no_ko and androgynous_female in place of reverse_trap instead? We can then have them implicate androgynous and use that as an umbrella tag.
Fred1515 said:
That being said, and given how unlikely it is that jxh will change it back, how about we use androgynous_male in place of trap/otoko_no_ko and androgynous_female in place of reverse_trap instead? We can then have them implicate androgynous and use that as an umbrella tag.
They're very different things, read the thread EB just linked. Androgynous means that someone looks about equally male/female. Whereas a trap looks much more female than male (and a reverse trap looks more male than female).
Honestly, I don't understand what's wrong with femboy. In the three months since I suggested it not a single argument against it has emerged, while there have been a number arguments against both trap and otoko_no_ko (even if I don't agree with the ones against trap).
+1 for femboy as the compromise to leave everyone the least upset. I've never heard the term before, but it seems it is in usage and doesn't appear to have negative connotations. It also makes it clearer that the tag applies even when you're technically not "trapped" by the character (because the penis is blatantly visible or whatever).
Toks said:
They're very different things, read the thread EB just linked. Androgynous means that someone looks about equally male/female. Whereas a trap looks much more female than male (and a reverse trap looks more male than female).
Good point, I shouldn't have missed that.
Just for the record btw, I much prefer femboy over the current tag as well. The only "problem" with it what the female counterpart would be. Not tomboy because it means a different thing. Boygirl? Sounds weird. I can't really think of anything else.
EB said:
It's a separate concept. See topic #5034.
I am aware that androgyny is a separate concept; my point was that in post #1758390 the clothing is not girlish enough to warrant tagging it as trap/男の娘.
Gollgagh said:
I am aware that androgyny is a separate concept; my point was that in post #1758390 the clothing is not girlish enough to warrant tagging it as trap/男の娘.
The clothing is not the deciding factor in whether trap/otoko_no_ko gets tagged. The terms just mean that the person looks very feminine. It's true that feminine clothing is often paired with it, but it's not a requirement, a feminine face can be enough even with clothing that is androgynous/masculine/nonexistent.
Fred1515 said:
Just for the record btw, I much prefer femboy over the current tag as well. The only "problem" with it what the female counterpart would be. Not tomboy because it means a different thing. Boygirl? Sounds weird. I can't really think of anything else.
True, I don't think an established female counterpart exists unfortunately. Though that didn't stop the trap -> otoko_no_ko alias either.
I think girlyboy is much easier to understand/remember and lacks confusion. It is the same as 男の娘.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=girlyboy
girlyboy - a girlyboy does not necessarily have a desire to dress as or become a "woman", instead he is naturally feminine in his tastes, appearance and/or behavior. He is often unintentionally mistaken for a girl by those who first meet him and may be secretly considered attractive by straight/masculine males his own age who would ordinarily be attracted only to females.
ladyboy - transvestite or transsexual
Unless it's written as "男の娘", otoko no ko is 99% translated to Boy instead of a girlyboy, so it's highly confusing.
Flopsy said:
The nice thing about ladyboy is that, unlike femboy and girlyboy, it has lordgirl as a reasonably natural-sounding converse. lordgirl would be a neologism, but a much better one than mascgirl, boiygirl or reverse_otoko_no_ko.
There is nothing natural-sounding or intuitive about "lordgirl". That sounds more confusing than even otoko_no_ko does.
If you say so. I must admit that it doesn't roll off the tongue. otoko_no_kos and reverse_traps as found on Danbooru aren't very symmetric anyway. An otoko_no_ko tends to be effusively, exquisitely feminine, a boy looking like a very girly girl. A reverse_trap is usually androgynous and reserved, a girl looking like a very girly boy.
As much as I think forcing trap to become otoko no ko was obnoxiously P.C. and completely unnecessary, I have to say that "femboy", "ladyboy", "girlyboy", and all the similar variants are actually even worse than otoko no ko, which is quite a feat.
Is there any particular reason we don't just revert back to trap? I keep seeing people in this thread saying that:
It seems like there's this mindset that terminology must be obsessively precise and that accuracy is more important than practicality, usefulness, or the wishes of the masses. There's something intensely counter-productive about trying to constantly be right at the cost of all else.
...However, if it comes down to it, I'd rather keep otoko no ko than adopt any of these new ones--which, I should add, are terms I've only ever heard applied derogatorily, to creepy drag queens, to those strange young ladies in Bangkok, or to people very concerned with relabeling themselves.
