Seriously?
Doesn't otokonoko just mean boy?
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He means 男の娘, which replaces the 子(child) in 男の子 (boy) with 娘 (girl).
It's a play on words or whatever you would call "substituting one kanji for another with the same pronunciation".
But -1 because of ambiguity. And it would have to be "otoko_no_ko" (with underscores) or "otoko_no_musume".
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It's too bad this is a case where the original Japanese is very clear and clever but a romanization is unfortunately going to lose the pun, because "trap" really is a tag I'd like to change if possible. Even though it's not used with ill intent by most fans the vast majority of the time, the word itself is nonetheless deeply offensive and transphobic at its roots. I understand why nobody ever really pushes to get it changed, but the opposition usually comes in the form of "Oh come on, you know what I mean, it's not means as an insult" is a rather weak argument.
But as far as tagging policy goes, we would need to keep ambiguity in mind and decide if "otoko_no_ko" is still okay anyway - seeing as how we'd never use it for anything else.
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NWF_Renim said:
What exactly is the ambiguity issue with otoko no ko? I'm not seeing where this ambiguity issue exists, so could someone elaborate on it?
男の子 (pronounced otoko no ko) is a very common word in Japanese meaning "boy".
男の娘 (also pronounced otoko no ko) is a slang term meaning "trap", or more literally "boy-girl". The character 娘 means girl and is pronounced ko, so it's a pun on the normal word for "boy". You need the kanji to tell which one it is, but kanji aren't preserved in romanization.
Toks said:
男の子 (pronounced otoko no ko) is a very common word in Japanese meaning "boy".
男の娘 (also pronounced otoko no ko) is a slang term meaning "trap", or more literally "boy-girl". The character 娘 means girl and is pronounced ko, so it's a pun on the normal word for "boy". You need the kanji to tell which one it is, but kanji aren't preserved in romanization.
That unfortunately doesn't answer my question (should note that I was the one who added the info on otoko no ko to the trap wiki definition, which you later made corrections to, so I'm well aware of what you're telling me). For our tagging purposes how exactly does this lead to an issue of ambiguity? We do not have a boy tag, and we will not have a boy tag, so where is the ambiguity? And if this ambiguity is an issue for this tag, then why is it not an issue then for the fujoshi tag?
NWF_Renim said:
That unfortunately doesn't answer my question (should note that I was the one who added the info on otoko no ko to the trap wiki definition, which you later made corrections to, so I'm well aware of what you're telling me). For our tagging purposes how exactly does this lead to an issue of ambiguity? We do not have a boy tag, and we will not have a boy tag, so where is the ambiguity? And if this ambiguity is an issue for this tag, then why is it not an issue then for the fujoshi tag?
The only issue I can see is with artist names, but I support the alias.
As trap is offensive at its root, and we are English website, I don't see how anyone will find it ambiguous.
Whatever issues there are with the romanization, we have a wiki for that and given this will be an alias, people can still tag it with trap.
Other than that, there may be some people who are resistant to the change.
As it is otokonoko and otoko_no_ko are both fine.
+1 for the alias
NWF_Renim said:
For our tagging purposes how exactly does this lead to an issue of ambiguity? We do not have a boy tag, and we will not have a boy tag, so where is the ambiguity?
The name "otoko no ko" has multiple possible meaning, which is the definition of ambiguous. It will lead to people misunderstanding it. Someone already made that understandable mistake earlier in this thread actually.
I don't know whether this would really be a problem as far as tagging goes, since we do have the wiki to clarify it, so I'm not necessarily arguing against the alias, nor for it. But the name is undeniably ambiguous.
NWF_Renim said:
And if this ambiguity is an issue for this tag, then why is it not an issue then for the fujoshi tag?
I wasn't aware that fujoshi was a pun and thus ambiguous until you pointed it out. Maybe the person who created the tag didn't know either?
Saladofstones said:
As it is otokonoko and otoko_no_ko are both fine.
If we're going to go with one of them it's not going to be otokonoko. We break tags up into words with underscores, and I don't see why this one would be any different.
Ok I'm pushing the alias to otoko_no_ko through. Ambiguity is a minimal concern, considering the benefit of dropping a really problematic term and and that we'd have no reason to use "otoko no ko" as a tag for any other purpose. Confused users can read the wiki, like they do for any of the bajillion not-instantly-intuitive tags on this site.
I've written up a rough wiki (which I did before realizing there was already something in the trap wiki), please feel free to clean it up/flesh it out.
Of course there's the problem of what to do with reverse_trap now but at least we've dealt with one issue.
jxh2154 said:
Ambiguity is a minimal concern, considering the benefit of dropping a really problematic term and and that we'd have no reason to use "otoko no ko" as a tag for any other purpose. Confused users can read the wiki, like they do for any of the bajillion not-instantly-intuitive tags on this site.
This reasoning is priceless.
Should I copy/paste it into topic #10381 as a most recent and very important voice in that discussion?
richie said:
This reasoning is priceless.
Should I copy/paste it into topic #10381 as a most recent and very important voice in that discussion?
You should probably take the further context of this thread into consideration then and propose the alias special_feeling/special_feeling_(meme) -> Tokubetsu_na_kibun.
You should probably take the further context of this thread into consideration then and propose the alias special_feeling/special_feeling_(meme) -> Tokubetsu_na_kibun.
And the reason we should in this case abandon english name and use a japanese alias instead is...?
Unlike with special_feeling, otoko_no_ko and trap are both ambiguous. Ideally we would use some other term that's not ambiguous but unless someone can actually think of one besides those two which still maintains accuracy (I can't), we have to use one of them.
richie said:
And the reason we should in this case abandon english name and use a japanese alias instead is...?
And the reason we're using an English name for a Japanese meme? Going by the know your meme website the meme is also referred to as "special mood" so it seems like we're arbitrarily picking an English translation for the name here, where we decided in the other cases (like the entire cast of Maoyuu Maou Yuusha) to stick with the Japanese to avoid such things.
Aliasing to otonoko was dumb and counter-intuitive, I only didn't say anything previously because I didn't think anyone would think it was a good idea. (and I missed the repeated bumps of the thread because my cookies wigged out.)
Puns that work in only one language make for horrible tags.
The tag has absolutely nothing to do with gender identity disorders it is a VISUAL tag. It doesn't matter if the character is a boy that identifies as a girl or not. The tag is an indication that this character who appears to be a girl has junk.
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It's all kinds of horrible as a tag, as Log points out, and as an absolute kicker, people who know Japanese are more likely to get confused by it (as evidenced by this very thread).
The assertion about trap being offensive is IMHO way overblown. Yes, the origins you could well take as offensive, but it's such a widespread and entrenched term by now that it has come to have a technical meaning with no valuation attached. It's pretty much the word used in the English-speaking crowd, including by people who do actual crossdressing. Which, btw, has little to do with any kind of gender dysphoria -- being trans and being a trap are pretty much distinct things.