Alluka Zoldyck and male_focus

Every time I see a character like this I usually just leave whatever tag it currently has alone unless it's obviously incorrect (post #6169682 for example)

Gender tagging wars give me a headache, and I'm saying this as a trans person myself. When it's an ambiguous character it's just a million times worse.

On a more general note rather in this specific case, I'm not a fan of the idea of rating G posts based on fetish logic over the character's identity (or whatever the artist intended them to be), but at the same time I understand that there's a desire for consistency. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

feline_lump said:

I can tell you had to post practically every example there is on Gelbooru and Pixiv because there's not that much of it

No, I obviously did not post all of them because I knew this was gonna be an argument. Here's more: post #8076999, post #8077030, post #6996757 (trap sandwich), this one, this, this... I still have plenty more in my backlog of unposted uploads too.

and what is there is slightly outnumbered by posts where Alluka is a cis female (or just plain gender-ambiguous).

Come on, this is straight-up dishonest phrasing. If we put it that way then the vast majority of otoko no ko pictures on this site have more posts where they're depicted as "cis female (or just plain gender-ambiguous)" too. The absolute majority of otoko no ko uploads fall under those parentheses, by design.

Blank_User said:

And for the ones that do, I don't think we should use the fact that otoko no ko characters (assuming this character actually is one) are sometimes drawn with puffy chests dissuade us from tagging the character as a girl in cases like post #6186697.

Well, the way we tag otoko no ko only applies to ambiguous posts. In cases where an androgynous character is explicitly drawn with sexual features then those typically trump canonical sex, so you could make an argument for that post to be tagged 1girl.

I say we just tag the SFW posts without primary/secondary sex characteristics as 1other and other_focus.

Feel free to submit a BUR to give people a chance to vote on the matter, then. I can live with this particular character being tagged 1other when there's no evidence of sexual features, if that's what the community wants.

nonamethanks said:

Well, the way we tag otoko no ko only applies to ambiguous posts. In cases where an androgynous character is explicitly drawn with sexual features then those typically trump canonical sex, so you could make an argument for that post to be tagged 1girl.

Yeah, I figured that would probably be the case here since it's clearly a non-fetish post with breasts, but I also know how prone to edit wars these things are, so I try to err on the side of caution. It seems okay for this post, so I'll change the tags.

Feel free to submit a BUR to give people a chance to vote on the matter, then. I can live with this particular character being tagged 1other when there's no evidence of sexual features, if that's what the community wants.

Done. topic #28642

nonamethanks said:

Come on, this is straight-up dishonest phrasing. If we put it that way then the vast majority of otoko no ko pictures on this site have more posts where they're depicted as "cis female (or just plain gender-ambiguous)" too. The absolute majority of otoko no ko uploads fall under those parentheses, by design.

This is solely based on NSFW Alluka posts, to be clear, the "gender-ambiguity" including references to Alluka's unclear sex and male/female variants of the same image. Here's what that search looks like on Gelbooru and Pixiv. Pretty small fraction compared to SFW posts, and no clear consensus. I think it's best to focus on the big picture rather than cherry-picking male posts and ignoring everything to the contrary.

Trouble_Windows said:

Every time I see a character like this I usually just leave whatever tag it currently has alone unless it's obviously incorrect (post #6169682 for example)

...Now for what reason was this post changed back when it says she's a girl right there in the picture?

Ask @zetsubousensei

Trouble_Windows said:

...Now for what reason was this post changed back when it says she's a girl right there in the picture?

I changed it because the character is still being discussed and we have plenty of art where characters are being depicted as "1girl" but we still tag as "1boy" post #6362204 for instance. I think its poor form to change while things are still being discussed especially if there is plans for them to be 1other-ed.

I've already said I don't know anything about HxH so I just reverted to keep the gender counters consistent. If this post is 1girl then we'd need to add genderswap_(mtf) to be consistent.

zetsubousensei said:

I changed it because the character is still being discussed and we have plenty of art where characters are being depicted as "1girl" but we still tag as "1boy" post #6362204 for instance. I think its poor form to change while things are still being discussed especially if there is plans for them to be 1other-ed.

I've already said I don't know anything about HxH so I just reverted to keep the gender counters consistent. If this post is 1girl then we'd need to add genderswap_(mtf) to be consistent.

That's because that Bridget post has a bulge, SFW posts of Bridget where she's drawn as a girl are tagged 1girl: bridget_(guilty_gear) 1girl solo. Adding genderswap just slipped my mind when I changed the tags on it initially.

(Also I changed the tags on that post way before this thread. I don't know anything about HXH either, I just saw a counter that didn't make sense with the content of the post.)

Trouble_Windows said:

That's because that Bridget post has a bulge, SFW posts of Bridget where she's drawn as a girl are tagged 1girl: bridget_(guilty_gear) 1girl solo. Adding genderswap just slipped my mind when I changed the tags on it initially.

(Also I changed the tags on that post way before this thread)

Most of that search isn't SFW and the posts that are feature the transgender flag, which is the actual criteria for tagging SFW Bridget as a girl. Bridget is still tagged as a boy by default unless there's something in the picture that identifies them as a girl.

blindVigil said:

Most of that search isn't SFW and the posts that are feature the transgender flag, which is the actual criteria for tagging SFW Bridget as a girl. Bridget is still tagged as a boy by default.

I misworded, and the search wasn't just meant to be SFW, just a search of Bridget posts tagged as 1girl. I meant that SFW posts that visibly show Bridget as a woman, such as with the transgender flag, are tagged as 1girl. I'm aware of the policy.

Regardless, we aren't talking about Bridget and my main point was that bringing up a NSFW image in correlation to a G-rated post that states in the image that the artist drew Alluka as female is strange.

blindVigil said:

Most of that search isn't SFW and the posts that are feature the transgender flag, which is the actual criteria for tagging SFW Bridget as a girl. Bridget is still tagged as a boy by default unless there's something in the picture that identifies them as a girl.

Technically, the criterion is physical evidence, which includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the transgender flag. I think a user reading the wiki could reasonably conclude that pronouns in the image would also count as sufficient physical non-bodily evidence. However, I didn't say anything at the time because I wasn't completely sure based on previous discussions about this topic.