Posted under Tags
create alias center_frills -> frilled_placket
See forum #111904.
EDIT: This tag alias has been rejected because it was not approved within 60 days.
EDIT: The tag alias center_frills -> frilled_placket (forum #142550) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
Updated by DanbooruBot
The tag alias center_frills -> frilled_placket (forum #142550) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
BUR #2045 has been rejected.
create alias center_frills -> frilled_placket
Reason: Re-submitting this one since this tag still isn't implicating frills and it's getting tedious to keep adding it manually every time, if people approve of the tag name I'll include an implication to frills too.
EDIT: This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.
EDIT: This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 60 days.
EDIT: The bulk update request #2045 (forum #157778) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
Updated by DanbooruBot
How many people actually know the word "placket"? It's not exactly a common word. Yes, I know it's slightly more common than words like contrapposto and considerably more than heterochromia but...
Also the reason above infers that it cannot tag frills unless the tag name changes, which I don't see the logic behind at all.
Updated
If I have to be honest I didn't know about it before this thread, if anyone have a better suggestion I'm all ears since I think the current name is fine but the last thread disagreed.
skylightcrystal said:
Also the reason above infers that it cannot tag frills unless the tag name changes, which I don't see the logic behind at all.
I don't understand what you mean? The posts tagged with center_frills should also have the frills tag but we can't make an implication unless we can decide on what name we should have for the tag.
Updated
The bulk update request #2045 (forum #157778) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
BUR #27489 has been rejected.
create alias center_frills -> frilled_placket
What the heck? I went through all of the effort of drafting my own thread only to find out somebody already made the exact same request five six years ago?! Now I'm annoyed because I can't make a stupid thread title disparaging Europeans for inventing these things. :(
Reasons why this is an objectively better tag:
1. "center_frills" is ambiguous and does not clearly convey what it is referring to. It could refer to anything. Center of what, exactly? Is a center frill a type of frill? "frilled_placket" is a clear, specific term explicitly referring to the thing that is frilled.
2. Matches existing tag format ("frilled_apron", "frilled_dress", etc.) - as of now "center frills" is the only exception.
3. The wiki definition of "center_frills" describes a frilled placket, suggesting a lack of proper terminology initially.
4. Improves overall tag clarity and consistency.
References:
https://www.hockerty.com/en-us/blog/shirt-plackets
https://lanieri.com/blog/en/sartorial-details-of-the-shirt-whats-the-placket/
https://www.nimble-made.com/blogs/news/dress-shirt-placket
https://www.anthropologie.com/shop/pilcro-ruffled-placket-shirt
https://modestpop.com/products/taryn-dress
https://www.nordstrom.com/s/court-and-rowe-court-rowe-ruffle-placket-flocked-dot-pinstripe-long-sleeve-cotton-shirtdress/5472817
How To:
Instagram video tutorial on how to frill a shirt placket.
CoreMack said:
This is the first time in my entire life I have ever encountered the word "placket"
While "placket" may not be a common word in everyday conversation, it is the proper term for this specific part of a garment. Danbooru's tagging system aims to be precise and descriptive, even if that means using specialized terminology at times.
Many of our clothing-related tags already use words that the average person might not encounter regularly, such as hanten (clothes), haori himo, haori, happi, haramaki, hiki furisode, jinbei, kappougi, karaginu mo, kariginu, kataginu, kimono, kyahan, layered kimono, michiyuki, mizu happi, obi, obiage, obidome, obijime, okobo, samue, sarashi, tabi, tasuki, tate eboshi, uchikake, yukata, and zouri.
The goal is not to limit ourselves to only the most basic, commonplace words, but rather to accurately describe the content in our posts. Using "frilled_placket" instead of the vague 'center_frills' allows us to tag images more effectively and helps users find what they're looking for more easily, as "center_frills" does not convey anything to the end user, as it is meaningless outside of the context of the tag.
Updated
I downvoted for similar issues with the word "placket". The problem with the term "placket" is that it is unintuitive to most people. Most people are the people we should be thinking about with these kinds of things. I think most people would probably assume center frills refers to, well, what's depicted in post #4038827 from tag name alone, as it's exactly what it sounds like. Meanwhile, if I saw "frilled placket" out of this context, I would be very confused, to put it mildly. I never would've guessed a "placket" refers to what center frills currently is for from the name alone without looking at the wiki. I believe most people have never heard that word before either. And since most people don't read wikis, that means the name harms more than it helps despite being more "specific" than center frills. This is even pointed out in the convo you resurrected from dead thread hell. Are people actually mistagging center frills frequently enough for it to be a geniune problem with the tag name itself?
And while yes, we do tend to use clothing tags that might not be familiar to the average person, notice how all your examples are of japanese clothes specifically. It makes sense we'd use those terms, as we specialize in anime art where those kinds of clothes are common and people tend to have at least passing familiarity with several of them, and so having a tag for them is useful. I myself have never heard the term "placket" before, and I wouldn't be surprised if too many other people here have either. The language we use in our tags should ideally be specific, but not so specific to the point of being counterintuitive, or even worse, confusing. I think center frills is the far more intuitive name than "frilled placket". Don't break what doesn't need fixing, I feel. So unless you have actual evidence to back up your claim as opposed to simple claims of ambiguity, I see no reason to change things.
And if there is an issue, I don't think "frilled placket" would be the solution.
Knowledge_Seeker said:
I downvoted for similar issues with the word "placket". The problem with the term "placket" is that it is unintuitive to most people. Most people are the people we should be thinking about with these kinds of things. I think most people would probably assume center frills refers to, well, what's depicted in post #4038827 from tag name alone, as it's exactly what it sounds like. Meanwhile, if I saw "frilled placket" out of this context, I would be very confused, to put it mildly. I never would've guessed a "placket" refers to what center frills currently is for from the name alone without looking at the wiki. I believe most people have never heard that word before either. And since most people don't read wikis, that means the name harms more than it helps despite being more "specific" than center frills. This is even pointed out in the convo you resurrected from dead thread hell. Are people actually mistagging center frills frequently enough for it to be a geniune problem with the tag name itself?
+1
Knowledge_Seeker said:
I downvoted for similar issues with the word "placket". The problem with the term "placket" is that it is unintuitive to most people. Most people are the people we should be thinking about with these kinds of things. I think most people would probably assume center frills refers to, well, what's depicted in post #4038827 from tag name alone, as it's exactly what it sounds like. Meanwhile, if I saw "frilled placket" out of this context, I would be very confused, to put it mildly. I never would've guessed a "placket" refers to what center frills currently is for from the name alone without looking at the wiki. I believe most people have never heard that word before either. And since most people don't read wikis, that means the name harms more than it helps despite being more "specific" than center frills. This is even pointed out in the convo you resurrected from dead thread hell. Are people actually mistagging center frills frequently enough for it to be a geniune problem with the tag name itself?
And while yes, we do tend to use clothing tags that might not be familiar to the average person, notice how all your examples are of japanese clothes specifically. It makes sense we'd use those terms, as we specialize in anime art where those kinds of clothes are common and people tend to have at least passing familiarity with several of them, and so having a tag for them is useful. I myself have never heard the term "placket" before, and I wouldn't be surprised if too many other people here have either. The language we use in our tags should ideally be specific, but not so specific to the point of being counterintuitive, or even worse, confusing. I think center frills is the far more intuitive name than "frilled placket". Don't break what doesn't need fixing, I feel. So unless you have actual evidence to back up your claim as opposed to simple claims of ambiguity, I see no reason to change things.
And if there is an issue, I don't think "frilled placket" would be the solution.
There are 42 frill tags. 41 begin with the word "frilled" and this is the one singular exception.
frilled_apron
frilled_armband
frilled_ascot
frilled_bikini
frilled_boots
frilled_bow
frilled_bra
frilled_camisole
frilled_capelet
frilled_choker
frilled_coat
frilled_collar
frilled_corset
frilled_dress
frilled_gloves
frilled_hair_tubes
frilled_hairband
frilled_hat
frilled_hood
frilled_jacket
frilled_kimono
frilled_leotard
frilled_one-piece_swimsuit
frilled_panties
frilled_pants
frilled_pillow
frilled_ribbon
frilled_sailor_collar
frilled_shawl
frilled_shirt
frilled_shirt_collar
frilled_shorts
frilled_skirt
frilled_sleeves
frilled_socks
frilled_tabard
frilled_thighhighs
frilled_tube_top
frilled_umbrella
frilled_vest
frilled_wrist_cuffs
center_frills
And the argument for why this one tag needs to break the convention of the 41 other tags seems to be "I'm fine with reading a specialized encyclopedia to learn the terminology of the specific sock worn by a ninja, but I would rather die than Google what the center part of a shirt is called!"
Updated
You misread me. The problem isn't my specific feelings on the matter, but that I think your idea has a high chance of causing more problems than it solves by making everyone use placket. I was simply using myself as an example. There's a difference between needing to know what a cultural garment is called because it has a unique look to it worth tagging, and forcing people to use a term most people have no idea what it means on an everyday article of clothing when, I repeat: to my knowledge, the original tag name is working just fine! You appear to be doing the latter.
Also, you seem to be more upset at this one singular tag for breaking convention than because the tag itself is causing actual problems. So tell me: is center frills actually causing mistags due to being ambiguous like you claim? Because so far, I'm failing to see why the tag needs to be change beyond your argument being "it breaks naming convention and I don't like it".
I believe I was introduced to center_frills from seeing it in posts first rather than searching for it. It's "intuitive" in the sense you can just see it in a post and say "yeah that makes sense" without going into the wiki.
"Placket" is what you get when you try to look up "part of shirt with buttons". It's what you get when you order a custom shirt from a place that has options. If you google "frilled placket" you get relevant results whereas you don't with "center frills", a phrase made up by Danbooru.
Will it spell disaster if we were to create an alias? I admit an alias wouldn't fix anything other than technical "correctness".
Knowledge_Seeker said:
You misread me. The problem isn't my specific feelings on the matter, but that I think your idea has a high chance of causing more problems than it solves by making everyone use placket. I was simply using myself as an example. There's a difference between needing to know what a cultural garment is called because it has a unique look to it worth tagging, and forcing people to use a term most people have no idea what it means on an everyday article of clothing when, I repeat: to my knowledge, the original tag name is working just fine! You appear to be doing the latter.
Also, you seem to be more upset at this one singular tag for breaking convention than because the tag itself is causing actual problems. So tell me: is center frills actually causing mistags due to being ambiguous like you claim? Because so far, I'm failing to see why the tag needs to be change beyond your argument being "it breaks naming convention and I don't like it".
I understand your concerns about the potential for confusion if we change the tag name to "frilled_placket". However, I believe the benefits of using the proper terminology outweigh the temporary learning curve for some users. Here's why:
While "center_frills" may seem intuitive, it's still a made-up term that doesn't exist outside of Danbooru. In contrast, "frilled placket" is the accurate name for this specific part of a garment. By using the correct term, we improve the overall precision and professionalism of our tagging system.
Yes, "placket" might be unfamiliar to some, but that doesn't mean we should avoid using it. Learning new terms is part of the tagging process, and we already use many specialized terms for garments. If a user is unsure about a tag's meaning, they can easily consult the wiki or do a quick search online to learn more.
Consistency in tagging is important for organization and searchability. Having 41 tags following the "frilled_" convention and one that doesn't creates unnecessary inconsistency. Aligning this tag with the others would make the system more cohesive overall.
I acknowledge that the current "center_frills" tag may not be causing significant mistagging issues. However, I believe that proactively improving tag clarity and consistency is still worthwhile, even if the benefits are more subtle. We should strive for the most accurate and organized tagging system possible.
Regarding your point about cultural garments vs. everyday clothing, I don't think that distinction is relevant here. The goal is to use the most precise terminology available, regardless of the garment's cultural origin or commonality. We shouldn't hold Western clothing terms to a different standard than Japanese ones. We aready have a perfect niche example: Juliet sleeves
While I understand the hesitation to adopt an unfamiliar term like "placket", I believe the long-term benefits of using accurate, consistent terminology are worth the short-term adjustment. Our tagging system should prioritize precision and clarity, even if it means occasionally learning new terms. "frilled_placket" aligns with our other frill tags and provides a more specific, professionally-accepted name for this garment part.
Updated
KalpacMuskoxen said:
Yes, "placket" might be unfamiliar to some, but that doesn't mean we should avoid using it. Learning new terms is part of the tagging process, and we already use many specialized terms for garments. If a user is unsure about a tag's meaning, they can easily consult the wiki or do a quick search online to learn more.
This is fine for something like the ushanka or one of our many specific tags for gun models because the precision is more beneficial than not, and the people who are searching for those tags already know what they want to look for. Not using specific names is harmful in these cases.
Center frills has over 20k posts, meaning it is a rather common tag, compared to either. There's also the issue that placket is a very rare word to come across in everyday speech, unless you happen to like to sew. I repeat: most people don't know what a placket is. I think in this specific instance, using the more "precise and professional" term would be much more harmful than just letting the tag be. Most people searching center frills probably don't know what a placket is, and while I'm sure its irritating to someone who does, its less that I think "placket is a rare word and should be avoided at all costs" and more "in this specific instance, using the proper word 'placket' would cause more problems than it solves, as it is a rare word". I don't expect most users to have the patience to look up what a placket is, especially were we to trade in an already perfectly working name for something like this. There's no need.
I acknowledge that the current "center_frills" tag may not be causing significant mistagging issues. However, I believe that proactively improving tag clarity and consistency is still worthwhile, even if the benefits are more subtle. We should strive for the most accurate and organized tagging system possible.
You are aware you just shot your own argument in the foot then, right? It's not causing any serious mistagging issues. This means most people understand full well what center frills is for as a tag. I am willing to bet that tag will have mistagging issues if its name gets changed to "frilled placket". Why try to fix something that clearly doesn't need fixing? It would improve consistency like you say, but it certainly wouldn't improve clarity, which I think is far more important here. Center frills is doing just fine without needing the name changed. If anything, I believe your idea will do the exact opposite of what you are striving to do.
Regarding your point about cultural garments vs. everyday clothing, I don't think that distinction is relevant here. The goal is to use the most precise terminology available, regardless of the garment's cultural origin or commonality. We shouldn't hold Western clothing terms to a different standard than Japanese ones. We aready have a perfect niche example: Juliet sleeves
Do you know how old your example tag is? topic #8102. I'm fully willing to bet that were someone to try something like the alias in that topic today, you'd run into the exact same arguments here. Hell, if it weren't for the fact that the original name of "puffy shoulder long sleeves" was on the longer side and it being such an old tag, I'd be tempted to argue the alias order should be reversed on that tag.
The reason why I brought those up is because the people searching for them are going to already know the proper name. If a tag for a common article of Western clothing is given a name most people don't understand, you are going to run into issues when people don't know what that tag mean. I'm fully willing to bet most people are only able to use juliet sleeves because of that alias, which means despite being the more "professional" name, most people couldn't find it without an alias. And while I don't think that's always a bad thing (utility alias), in this case, it's a sign that the name probably only survives through utility aliases, making me question the viability of the name.
While I understand the hesitation to adopt an unfamiliar term like "placket", I believe the long-term benefits of using accurate, consistent terminology are worth the short-term adjustment. Our tagging system should prioritize precision and clarity, even if it means occasionally learning new terms. "frilled_placket" aligns with our other frill tags and provides a more specific, professionally-accepted name for this garment part.
Yes, yes we should strive for precision and clarity. Center frills is already pretty precise and clear a name, especially compared to placket. If anything, all you have done is further convince me that this name change is a bad idea. We should strive to use the name that is most clear and concise, and if that means not always using the more professionally accepted term because most people are not going to understand what it is for, then so be it. Better a made-up term that is easy to understand for the audience searching that tag than a "professional" name that obfuscates its intended purpose more than clarifies to the average person seeking that type of thing out.
juliet sleeves
Since it has an alias, puffy_shoulder_long_sleeves will show up in autocomplete for "puffy".
puffy sleeves 307k
puffy short sleeves 155k
puffy shoulder long sleeves -> juliet sleeves 59k
puffy long sleeves 48k
If we were to alias center_frills, then it will still show up in autocomplete for "center".
When coming across it in a post, most center frills posts only have itself and the frills implication, and maybe another self-explanatory frilled_* tag. If a user were to come across a post with frills and frilled_placket, what could it possibly mean when it's right there in the image?
