Some Ado implications

nonamethanks said:

Ok, hold up, I've been approving these on autopilot, but should we really be using an umbrella tag? These characters all look different, they're more like different roles than different skins/personas. We don't have an umbrella tag for vtubers that completely change character, like dokibird (vtuber) vs selen tatsuki, so why would we have an umbrella character tag for all the characters in post #7378255 and post #7338641? Is this just a proxy for an umbrella copytag?

I suppose this does kind of function as a proxy umbrella copytag now. When I started these implications, the usage was wildly inconsistent, both in terms of character tags and copyright tags, meaning you had to make a search consisting of multiple (5+) copy- and chartags to find what ado_(utaite) does now. If I recall correctly, these implications follow from how a majority of posts were tagged.

Related to topic #25915, the agency tag Cloud Nine Inc was created (also because Yoshino falls under that), but a consensus wasn't really reached on whether to use this as an umbrella copytag or not. Theoretically, if that were done, these implications wouldn't really be necessary. However, this would put the Ado (utaite) tag in a kind of weird state where it's only applied to characters with definitive designs but with no name (like with Gira Gira currently).

I think naming these characters could be managed. The community seems to generally lean towards <song name>-chan or <song name>-san, so Odo-chan for Odo for example. This was also what was done with Akuru-chan.

This, along with her default avatar now having a chartag (Chando (ado)) would put the Ado (utaite) tag in a weird state where it's kind of just obseolete, but having "all Ado-related posts" not be findable under something to do with "Ado" doesn't feel right. Would we make it a copytag subtag under Cloud Nine Inc (wouldn't worse since it's too large of a percentage of all posts)? Or do we nuke it and turn it into a utility alias for Cloud Nine Inc, and let the *_(ado) qualifiers handle the rest of searchability?

Like I mentioned, I mostly made these implications to at least make the usage consistent, but I'm defininitely open to changes since even I at times question whether it *really* makes sense.

I've always found this questionable but since everyone else agreed without hesitance I didn't bother.

Is it actually confirmed that these are Ado and not just random characters from the songs? For the record, there're plenty of songs with original characters, named or not, that isn't the singer. Although there're iffy times when they got tagged as the singer, but that's because they either are unnamed and lack their own tag or vaguely resemble the singer that it's hard to tell. Generally this is supposed to be avoided.

In this case, the characters all have names and some of them e.g hinata don't even look like Ado. Plus you're submitting this for every character regardless of how many there are in a single song, suggesting that two characters that are interacting with each other are essentially the same person?? This shouldn't happen that many times unless there're specific lore reasons.

This is like tagging hatsune miku on post #5181257, post #6060031, post #6702643 or post #5434175. (I'm using vocaloid as an example because they have a larger sample size on the site, but this works the same with human singers)

magcolo said:

I've always found this questionable but since everyone else agreed without hesitance I didn't bother.

Is it actually confirmed that these are Ado and not just random characters from the songs? For the record, there're plenty of songs with original characters, named or not, that isn't the singer. Although there're iffy times when they got tagged as the singer, but that's because they either are unnamed and lack their own tag or vaguely resemble the singer that it's hard to tell. Generally this is supposed to be avoided.

The majority (not all, but nearly all) songs have a clear "first person" so in those cases, yes. But like you describe, it's not entirely clear-cut how to deal with it.

In this case, the characters all have names and some of them e.g hinata don't even look like Ado. Plus you're submitting this for every character regardless of how many there are in a single song, suggesting that two characters that are interacting with each other are essentially the same person?? This shouldn't happen that many times unless there're specific lore reasons.

This is like tagging hatsune miku on post #5181257, post #6060031, post #6702643 or post #5434175. (I'm using vocaloid as an example because they have a larger sample size on the site, but this works the same with human singers)

Like I explained, this was "inherited" from how it used to be done e.g. Ado (utaite) as an umbrella tag for any of her characters. Maybe it's an artifact of how things used to be done, or how one or a few random users back then did it, but I do agree to the extent that it's useful to have some sort of umbrella. #Adoart being universally used in the commentaries also makes chartags an easy place to implement that, so I can see how it ended up there, but there's probably a better solution.

The ado (utaite) tag is useful to search for basically everything related to her, which I regularly do. I can't think of a replacement search for it and I believe it should stay in some form.

It is certainly not a proper character tag, though, at least not when used as an umbrella tag. It's probably closer to a copytag (like YOASOBI) but is not quite equivalent to that either, the way it's currently used. It's probably overloaded and should be broken up.

I would not consider all of the individual songs' characters to represent Ado directly. Chando (Ado) represents the actual person (whose real life identity is private). The song characters are their own characters. Where it gets tricky is that not all of them have names, and the ones that don't are currently tagged with ado (utaite) alone. If that tag is not to be a character tag, those individual characters would need tags. It would hardly be the first time we've had to make up a stand-in name for a character, though, and there's already a fairly established naming convention for them on the 'net, like 岩戸鈴芽 said.

I actually ran into this yesterday, uploading art of sweet potato! (utaite group), which is a fictional group created by Ado for April Fools. I added the ado (utaite) tag the first time, but couldn't bring myself to add it to the rest. They're just characters created and voiced by her (and not even officially admitted to be that, AFAIK). The character tag feels wrong but I also feel they should have a tag linking them to her, as I'd expect to see them in a search for her. I would definitely feel more comfortable adding a copyright tag to those posts.

岩戸鈴芽 said:

(...) having "all Ado-related posts" not be findable under something to do with "Ado" doesn't feel right. Would we make it a copytag subtag under Cloud Nine Inc (wouldn't worse since it's too large of a percentage of all posts)? Or do we nuke it and turn it into a utility alias for Cloud Nine Inc, and let the *_(ado) qualifiers handle the rest of searchability?

A copytag may not be perfect, but makes more sense than a chartag, and at least I don't have a better idea. I think Ado needs her own tag, though. We shouldn't just shove everything into Cloud Nine. Wildcard searches are not reliable or performant as an everyday replacement for tags IMO. Furthermore, if Ado moved to another agency, all hell would break loose -- which just goes to show that the majority of the posts have little to do with Cloud Nine Inc. in the first place (excepting post #7338728 and a few others).

I'm actually starting to think we should have an Ado copytag and remove Cloud Nine Inc from most of the posts. It could apply to only company connection posts like post #7135772, and those that show a personification of the company itself or a representation of its CEO such as post #7338728. The latter especially are actually quite difficult to find right now -- though that could also be addressed by giving them company connection and/or making a chartag for the cloud-head suit guy.

One more note: We have a non-trivial number of posts relating to an Ado song covered by someone else, or parodied somehow. For example: usseewa -ado_(utaite) (and there was a point when that search had more results than Naima). Popular opinion in topic #25915 (and topic #24634 by analogy) is that those posts should not be tagged with Cloud Nine, and currently they aren't even tagged with Ado. Not really a problem for an ado copytag whether it implies cloud nine or not, as it'd just be omitted from those posts like the existing chartag is, but felt worth mentioning in case it factors into something else.

BUR #24944 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

remove implication akuru-chan_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication cacao_(chocolat_cadabra) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication carpenter_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication chando_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication cocoa_(chocolat_cadabra) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication ibara-chan_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication lugosi_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication merry_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication naima_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication romero_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication sugar_(chocolat_cadabra) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication tanaka_keiko_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
remove implication tia_(ado) -> ado_(utaite)
category ado_(utaite) -> copyright

Not completely sure this is the way to go, but BUR to start a timer and get votes.

If we did this, we'd manually add chartags for the unnamed song characters.

Started making some individual unnamed-character tags -- odo-chan (ado), ashura-chan (character), freedom-chan (ado) -- can always remove them again if we don't want them but it's a way to see if it'll work.

Some of them aren't quite so easy. Gira Gira is just a matter of deciding how to spell it, but....

Is the character in Ado's Unravel cover Chando? I'm thinking yes, but I wouldn't say it's totally obvious and only 1 of 6 relevant posts have that tag now.

How to name the characters from songs with more complex names? Looking at you, kokoro_to_iu_na_no_fukakai. We aren't just sticking -chan onto that, are we? Almost any song with more than one word in its title has this problem to some degree.

What's going on with post #7005104? The relevant song is sung by Miku, and Ado participates as a Vocalo-P rather than a singer. That picture is more Miku than Chando, though I'm not sure it's Miku enough to be tagged as her either.

I agree that Ado (utaite) as a catch-all is both useful and needed, it'd be weird to not be able to search all Ado-related songs etc.. It's kind of cursed to be making a *_(utaite) copytag, but it does fit there more than under chartags.

Some of them aren't quite so easy. Gira Gira is just a matter of deciding how to spell it, but....

Given a lack of a proper way to romanize ギラギラちゃん in a way that's consistent with the official English title I'd propose hyphenation as Gira-Gira-chan, it looks kind of awkward but having a space or no separator at all in the name would be even worse.

Is the character in Ado's Unravel cover Chando? I'm thinking yes, but I wouldn't say it's totally obvious and only 1 of 6 relevant posts have that tag now.

IIRC I tagged that based on the presence of the mole + assuming some artistic liberty, leading to post #7165689 (maybe) being Chando in some sort of cosplay, while the others are, well, I'm not sure honestly.

How to name the characters from songs with more complex names? Looking at you, kokoro_to_iu_na_no_fukakai. We aren't just sticking -chan onto that, are we? Almost any song with more than one word in its title has this problem to some degree.

I suppose we pray a few artists use the the same or a similar nickname. In the absence of any I'd say the best is to just come up with something reasonable that sounds alright in the meantime.

岩戸鈴芽 said:

Given a lack of a proper way to romanize ギラギラちゃん in a way that's consistent with the official English title I'd propose hyphenation as Gira-Gira-chan, it looks kind of awkward but having a space or no separator at all in the name would be even worse.

Just "Gira-chan" could work too. I've seen it in the English fandom but I don't think I've ever seen ギラちゃん in Japanese, always ギラギラちゃん, so we are probably better off with "gira-gira-chan" as you suggest. I don't love it but I agree that "gira gira-chan" and "giragira-chan" look worse.

As for the others, yeah we'll just have to do our best I guess. And as long as we're able to keep a big Ado tag along with individual song tags, a few low-post-count characters going without chartags for a while won't end the world.

I'll proceed for now as if Ado (utaite) is going to be a copytag, though it's indeed a bit cursed, for lack of a better idea.

If we are going that way, the next question is whether it should be a subtag of cloud nine inc. My initial vote would be no, and my argument would be: The company has little to no relevance in my eyes to the subject matter of the majority of the posts it's currently on, which makes it far less useful for finding those few posts where it is relevant.

However, I'm not sure how to handle the inconsistency that would create with other members of cloud nine who don't make sense as copytags. For example Yoshino (utaite) has only her Chando-equivalent avatar which doesn't have an independent name AFAIK, so that is a proper character tag and cloud nine inc seems to be the only relevant copytag available when a song is not involved. (Perhaps then I should resign to giving up on cloud nine being a useful tag for search and instead garden company connection and create a chartag for Cloud Nine Inc's personification? Guess the latter should be done anyway.)

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So now that this has settled a bit, Cloud Nine Inc has been cleared out to just be for non-Ado members and crossovers. It's somewhat inconsistent, but let's not pretend Ado isn't the agency's main famous member, so I think some inconsistency can be tolerated to prevent creating a bunch of tags.

Now that Ado (utaite) is a copytag though, do we imply her songs (except maybe Odo) to it, so it functions as the umbrella tag instead? I'd personally like to see that, but I'm not sure if there's any issue I'm not seeing that would prevent this from working (and this whole discussion happened quite a while ago now).