Posted under Bugs & Features
thelieutenant said:
ill say again i think this is one of the worst changes that could have possibly been made but at this point no one is gonna change their mind on it
Yeah, it's definitely a step backwards in terms of usability. There are a lot of cases where I want to easily add general tags from a wiki page. I would understand grouping non-general tags at the top of the list, but completely removing general tags isn't great.
The "+ -" links were removed for reasons explained here. I don't think they were worth the amount of space they took up in the tag list, especially as tags have gotten longer. Not enough people used them. Many people didn't even know what they were for. They were limited to Gold+ users, which didn't make sense, but if they were enabled for everybody I'm sure there would be a huge number of people saying they don't know what they're for and they don't like them and I should get rid of them.
Wiki gentags were removed from related tags for reasons explained here. They encouraged a lot of bad practices. They encouraged wikis to be just braindumps of tags for uploaders to copy and paste from, rather than actual explanations of the character. They encouraged tagging to be just about tagging the character's appearance and nothing else. Most tagging on Danbooru is just tagging the character's default outfit over and over again. It's not describing anything unique to the post. It's not adding any new information not already present in the character tag. It's just mindlessly copy and pasting the same tags over and over again and acting like that's the definition of good tagging.
I used them regularly, just because not many people use it doesn't mean they should go. I don't think anyone really cares about the space they take up in the tag list. I completely disagree that users wouldn't know what they were for and would want their removal if you made them available for everybody, that's frankly an absurd assumption.
Simply assuming that users wouldn't know what "+/-" links were for if it were made a feature for all users doesn't strike me as a good reason to remove the function entirely. Just because the dumbest users wouldn't know what it was for doesn't mean it wasn't useful for the rest of us.
And the vast majority of tagging is inherently about the character's physical appearance. Isn't that why general tags exist at all? Tagging every trivial bit of what a character is wearing isn't the most important thing, but as long as the tags are correct I don't think it's possible to tag too much.
As mentioned in the github you can still use the Related Tags to quickly tag the most common features of a character that show up in 99% of their posts. Stuff that's more obscure/specific should be getting tagged on a case-by-case basis and not via a tag dump anyway. I just went and read a few wikis of some more recent characters and it really is awful how they all just read as a tagging guide for their default outfit.
evazion said:
Wiki gentags were removed from related tags for reasons explained here. They encouraged a lot of bad practices. They encouraged wikis to be just braindumps of tags for uploaders to copy and paste from, rather than actual explanations of the character. They encouraged tagging to be just about tagging the character's appearance and nothing else. Most tagging on Danbooru is just tagging the character's default outfit over and over again. It's not describing anything unique to the post. It's not adding any new information not already present in the character tag. It's just mindlessly copy and pasting the same tags over and over again and acting like that's the definition of good tagging.
fair enough. i think i need to make use of frequent tags from now on.
Magus said:
And the vast majority of tagging is inherently about the character's physical appearance. Isn't that why general tags exist at all? Tagging every trivial bit of what a character is wearing isn't the most important thing, but as long as the tags are correct I don't think it's possible to tag too much.
The point I think being made is that it just encourages users to not actually look at the picture and tag actually noteworthy things, instead just copying the wiki tags, even if they're wrong, and calling it a day when they've hit the tag minimum. For them to be "tagging too much" they would need to actually add as many tags as possible, but they don't, they just add the bare minimum and the wiki tags let them do that without even touching tags that would be more useful for the picture.
blindVigil said:
The point I think being made is that it just encourages users to not actually look at the picture and tag actually noteworthy things, instead just copying the wiki tags, even if they're wrong, and calling it a day when they've hit the tag minimum. For them to be "tagging too much" they would need to actually add as many tags as possible, but they don't, they just add the bare minimum and the wiki tags let them do that without even touching tags that would be more useful for the picture.
We may as well get rid of related tags altogether, because not only they also facilitate under-the-radar mintagging, but from my own experience, the large majority of mintaggers didn't even bother with wiki tags, not to mention the dubious utility of may of the tags that get automatically show on the related tags section because they way they are selected.
Mexiguy said:
We may as well get rid of related tags altogether, because not only they also facilitate under-the-radar mintagging, but from my own experience, the large majority of mintaggers didn't even bother with wiki tags, not to mention the dubious utility of may of the tags that get automatically show on the related tags section because they way they are selected.
Let's not get rid of even more features.
From forum #264509
It'd be useful if it (color request tags) had its own unique system like how using char:(last name, first name) automatically creates a new character.
FORMAT-EXAMPLE: Color request:(insert noun for clarification).
EXAMPLE-FOR-ACTUAL-USE: Color request:eyes, Color request:pants.
Upon using these would all still fall under color request but in the actual post page it has the noun after the colon (appears as Color request:(insert noun for clarification)).
In-between Edit: and since the noun wouldn't appear in the tag suggestions you could write things like Color_request:sky(blue_or_grey) and use multiple color request tags in one post.
That way we would not need to create new color requests for each thing that needs color clarification and get rid of the need for deprecating them when they get rediscovered years after being out of use.
I thought the "+/-" links were pretty convenient for quickly "drilling down" as I'm searching for particular images (either from the result screen or from an image), or when on mobile, or on some occasions when I can't use my keyboard. It's a nice accessibility feature.
I also think that one of the reasons listed on github is a tad silly, anyone that confused them for up/down vote buttons would quickly realize they're for navigation.
evazion said:
The "+ -" links were removed for reasons explained here. I don't think they were worth the amount of space they took up in the tag list, especially as tags have gotten longer. Not enough people used them. Many people didn't even know what they were for. They were limited to Gold+ users, which didn't make sense, but if they were enabled for everybody I'm sure there would be a huge number of people saying they don't know what they're for and they don't like them and I should get rid of them.
Then I'm part of the ones that use the +/- links regularly, and I've found them very helpful ever since I got them. The bit about them not making sense to be on the post show page is just not true, you don't need to be on the search page to want to modify your search, or else why is the search bar on the post show page? I modify my search from the post show page all the time, with and without the +/- links. Not only do I use them to add/remove a tag from search, they're also a good shortcut for more complex modifications like replacements. e.g. If I need to replace X with Y. I find it simpler to tap +X and automatically jump to the new search page, then select Y and delete it. Compare to getting back to the search bar, remove Y, type X manually then find and select X from the autocomplete list. e.g.2. They're also very useful to mass remove a bunch of posts from the result. Say I'm in a search with a lot of false positives (of what I want to see, the tagging itself is alright), I can simply start mindlessly clicking into every post and start +/- the tags that make them false positives until the front page is "cleaned out". Instead of hand-typing all the tags. Plus it's not always possible to predict what the false positives are so I can't type them before executing the base search.
For the rest, I'm fine with them taking some space, I've gotten quite used to that. If most of the userbase wouldn't like it and would want it removed, which I think is possible, then just go back to how it was. And that would very well explain why it was limited to gold+, average user might see them as useless but builder+ could need them when they're gardening. Or why not make it something that you can turn on/off in your account settings.
Updated
As a frequent user of +/- links, their removal seems more like a case of confirmation bias than anything. Using total user statistics rather than statistics from users with access to the feature is a blatantly flawed way to determine its actual usage and ultimately all it accomplishes is making the site less convenient to quickly navigate, since clicking a single button will always be more convenient than typing out the first few letters of a tag. All a user needs to do is use them once to understand what they do, so the idea that they could be mistaken for a voting system is kinda silly for anyone that uses the site even semi-regularly. Even if you were right about that, the site wiki exists for the express purpose of explaining these things, so its not as if they would be unable to find that information if they bothered to look. Even if you consider tag wrapping a concern, adding the option to disable +/- links seems like a far better solution than removing them outright.
All in all, I think this change is a mistake and I hope it gets reverted soon, or at least is made optional.
Magus said:
...the vast majority of tagging is inherently about the character's physical appearance. Isn't that why general tags exist at all? Tagging every trivial bit of what a character is wearing isn't the most important thing, but as long as the tags are correct I don't think it's possible to tag too much.
To better explain what evazion is referring to, let's imagine a Gawr Gura post was uploaded with the following general tags:
"1girl solo long_hair white_hair blue_hair streaked_hair two-tone_hair sidelocks blue_eyes sharp_teeth short_dress blue_dress long_sleeves pocket drawstring hooded_dress shark_hood animal_hood nail_polish blue_nails shark_tail tail shark_girl bare_legs shoes blue_footwear cross-laced_footwear"
This hypothetical post is well above the 10 tag minimum. However, ignoring "1girl solo", none of these 25 tags describe the post any further than her character tag. Is she happy, or maybe sad? What's she doing? Where is she? We can't tell anything aside from the fact she's wearing her first costume and that it's probably a full body image, both of which can be covered by simply tagging "gawr_gura_(1st_costume) full_body".
Far more valuable are tags like standing_on_one_leg, outdoors, from_side, sex, scared, arms_up, explosion and so on. These tags actually describe what is happening in the post, and they're often neglected in favor of dumping a copypasted list of "character specific" general tags. There's nothing wrong with tagging Gura's white hair and blue dress, but only tagging her appearance and not bothering to tag that she's excitedly clapping while at the races, or eating pizza at Taco Bell, or running away from a real shark, is essentially just one step short of not tagging the post at all.
Regarding related tags and AI tags, I am slightly annoyed with how they are displayed.
For example, the root tag (skirt) may be somewhere at the top, but more detailed ones (blue skirt, high-waist skirt) are either farther down, or not suggested at all.
I think it would be more convenient to have implied tags grouped/nested in tag suggestions box as well.
FormerlyJ said:
After some discussion on Discord, I am also here to voice my disagreement with the removal of the +/- links. Searching on mobile is now many orders of magnitude slower. Please make them an optional feature that can be turned on/off per user.
Along with a couple other mobile fixes, like the formatting menu always being off screen.
And a menu to choose what kinds of things you get notifications (like for dmails) for comments on posts, replies for comments and forums. So we don't have to go through our comment/forum history or search with user uploads + order:comments
