Bridget - Guilty Gear Strive

• Do we tag every single Bridget post as transgender, or only Strive posts, or only Strive posts where Bridget is overtly depicted as transgender (with the trans flag, with trans colors, etc)?

The later. Bridget identified as a boy/male in all previous media, and the vast majority of artists keep referring to Bridget as male. Tagging every piece of media as "transgender" would go against the character/creators/artists interests in the same way not tagging Bridget as 1girl in explicitly pro-trans images is, but in this case the "aggression" would be done in a much bigger scale.
Keep tagging all pre-Strive and unspecified imagery of Bridget as 1boy, and limit the use of transgender tags to images that explicitly state it or whose artists wanted to depict Bridget as trans and not as a trap/femboy/otoko no ko.

• What do we call the tag? transgender? transgender (mtf) and transgender (ftm) (is the term "MtF" transphobic)? transgirl and transboy?

Having two tags for trans men and women would cause less headaches in the future. No idea what would be the best name.

• Do we remove the otoko no ko tag if we tag Bridget as transgender? Keep in mind otoko no ko is one of the most searched-for tags on the site.
• Do we replace yaoi with something like transgirl with male? Keep in mind yaoi is one of the most blacklisted tags on the site, and those people won't be happy if this suddenly evades their blacklist.
• What about all the other male-gendered tags used for Bridget? What do we do with things like male pubic hair, male masturbation, topless male, toned male, etc? We either keep using tags like male pubic hair on Bridget even though we're saying she's a transgirl, or we end up with tags like transgirl pubic hair or male-presenting pubic hair, which is just... no.

This is another reason why limiting the change of tags to the few special cases is the better option from a practical standpoint. It reduces the amount of changes that need to be done to tags and filters to a minimum as described by yourself in the other post:

posts under bridget_(guilty_gear) transgender_flag rating:g should be tagged as 1girl. This is a grand total of 11 posts

I know this is a very sensitive topic, but as the owner of Danbooru you should know better than everyone about how important is to have tags that are useful for users, and doing these changes would hinder the searches and filters of a large population for no real benefit.

bakanon said:

the vast majority of artists keep referring to Bridget as male.

Source?

btw i've noticed that every post of madeline from celeste says she's a girl despite being trans. i guess its cuz she was confirmed trans after the game came out but if u wanna misgender trans characters across the board at least be consistent

evazion said:

I'm going to reject this for now because I want to take a vote on the least-controversial ideas first before jumping to more radical ideas.

And frankly, the whole debate is over what the words "male" and "female" mean. Does "female" mean a person's biological sex (whether they have a penis or vagina) or their gender presentation (how they look and act, how they consider themselves, how they present themselves to the world)? This does nothing to clarify matters because what the words "male" and "female" mean is the very question here.

It wasn't meant to be something rejected or accepted, I wanted to see people's opinions on the vote because there's no poll option on this website otherwise.

Also, yes, "female" and "male" are for birth sex. That's how they're used in most contexts. "Girl" and "boy" aren't for birth sex, those would be considered genders. This change would have only changed the names of those two tags. From there, we could probably add transgirl and transboy and other tags like that.

ravenmelloowo said:
Source?

Every piece of art of Bridget in Pixiv that contains the otoko_no_ko tag or omits a transgender or similar tag:
https://www.pixiv.net/en/tags/%E3%83%96%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B8%E3%83%83%E3%83%88(%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AB%E3%83%86%E3%82%A3%E3%82%AE%E3%82%A2)%20%E7%94%B7%E3%81%AE%E5%A8%98/ - 1600 works containing otoko_no_ko
https://www.pixiv.net/en/tags/%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%82%B8%E3%82%A7%E3%83%B3%E3%83%80%E3%83%BC%20%E3%83%96%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B8%E3%83%83%E3%83%88(%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AB%E3%83%86%E3%82%A3%E3%82%AE%E3%82%A2)/ - 32 works containing transgender
The links aren't malicious or broken. My browser filters non-ASCII characters (like Japanese characters) into this weird combination of numbers and signs.

And even if you take all pics made after Bridget was announced for Strive you'd still have thousands of images of a Bridget that still identified as male that were drawn by artists who considered Bridget a boy and whose tags would be completely wrong and go against all of these artists' intentions if the suggested bulk change was applied. That's why doing an overly general change instead of merely changing a smaller pool of images is a horrible idea and the bulk update should focus on the images containing trans imagery or made by artists that explicitly called Bridget female/trans.

btw i've noticed that every post of madeline from celeste says she's a girl despite being trans. i guess its cuz she was confirmed trans after the game came out but if u wanna misgender trans characters across the board at least be consistent

Not only this is unrelated to the current topic, but Madeline's case was completely different from Bridget's. Everyone assumed that Madeline was a (biological) girl from minute one, and it wasn't until information about how Madeline is trans (information that came much later in the form of a small reference in a cutscene in a DLC) that people moved from calling her "girl" to "trans girl".

evazion said:

Now, I think it's fair to say that Bridget should be tagged as a girl when the artist explicitly depicts her as a transgender girl. So I'll say Bridget should be tagged as 1girl in SFW Strive posts where the artist explicitly depicts her as transgender. "explicitly transgender" means things like with the transgender flag or trans colors. "SFW" means rating:G posts.

So this means the posts under bridget_(guilty_gear) transgender_flag rating:g should be tagged as 1girl. This is a grand total of 11 posts. This also means the otoko no ko tag should be removed from these posts.

Why is this fair? Everyone can agree that the artist drew a transgender girl, but not everyone can agree that means the artist drew a literal girl. Or does the artist's world view trump the userbase's which is split in this manner? Also to be consistent this logic would have to apply to other images that are "explicitly transgender" giving a simple flag a very large influence in how tagging is done. And on the other hand, it doesn't make sense to tag Bridget as a girl in only this scenario. It would establish that transgirl = girl, so it would only be logical to tag Strive Bridget as a girl by default.

But I can agree that otoko no ko should be removed in "explicitly transgender" images. To me, the character's attitude is an important part of otoko no ko and Bridget thinking himself as a girl makes him no longer count as one. Though I'm not into otoko no ko so my opinion isn't worth as much as those who are. Maybe they would want transgirls included in that tag.

evazion said:
As for the idea of tagging Bridget as transgender, once again, I'm not against it, but people still haven't answered basic questions about how it should work. If you support this idea, please answer these questions:

• Do we tag every single Bridget post as transgender, or only Strive posts, or only Strive posts where Bridget is overtly depicted as transgender (with the trans flag, with trans colors, etc)?
• What do we call the tag? transgender? transgender (mtf) and transgender (ftm) (is the term "MtF" transphobic)? transgirl and transboy?
• Do we remove the otoko no ko tag if we tag Bridget as transgender? Keep in mind otoko no ko is one of the most searched-for tags on the site.
• Do we replace yaoi with something like transgirl with male? Keep in mind yaoi is one of the most blacklisted tags on the site, and those people won't be happy if this suddenly evades their blacklist.
• What about all the other male-gendered tags used for Bridget? What do we do with things like male pubic hair, male masturbation, topless male, toned male, etc? We either keep using tags like male pubic hair on Bridget even though we're saying she's a transgirl, or we end up with tags like transgirl pubic hair or male-presenting pubic hair, which is just... no.

I do support this idea, because Bridget is now indeed a transgender girl and that tag could be very useful.

• Only Strive posts* and by default. If an artist is still drawing Bridget as an otoko no ko then the tag would not apply. *pre-Strive Bridget could be tagged as transgender if drawn explicitly as such.
• Two tags would be best for filtering. transgender (mtf) and transgender (ftm) should be fine, those are commonly used acronyms after all. And it's pointless to worry about if those terms are transphobic too much, because what counts as that varies too much from person to person. Like some will go as far to say that a lesbian not wanting to have sex with a transgirl due to having a penis is transphobic.
• Yes, reasoning previously mentioned.
• Sex based tags should care about the character's sex, not their state of mind. So Bridget could still be tagged with yaoi.
• Same as the last bullet point. Bridget is male so would get male based tags, and not female ones.

Bridget being tagged as an otoko no ko all the time on Pixiv has more to do with basic searchability than all of these artists explicitly denying that Bridget is trans now. This one is a trans joke tagged that way, for instance. People simply don't use trans-related tags often, even for someone like Nitori Shuuichi, whose transness is a central plot point.

feline_lump said:

Bridget being tagged as an otoko no ko all the time on Pixiv has more to do with basic searchability than all of these artists explicitly denying that Bridget is trans now.

If true, isn't that essentially the same reasoning as us keeping the "boy" tag for practical reasons? And while I haven't seen JP artists go out of their way to flat out deny Bridget's transness, it's apparent from twitter & pixiv fanbase interactions that the overwhelming majority of them simply doesn't care about this anywhere as much as we do (I'm also confused as to how the linked pic is a trans joke, if anything it only enforces the idea that dick = not a girl and vice versa).

feline_lump said:

Bridget being tagged as an otoko no ko all the time on Pixiv has more to do with basic searchability than all of these artists explicitly denying that Bridget is trans now. This one is a trans joke tagged that way, for instance. People simply don't use trans-related tags often, even for someone like Nitori Shuuichi, whose transness is a central plot point.

I don't think so. It only says that most pixiv artists still consider Bridget an otokonoko, and that people who search for otokonoko likely want to see pictures of Bridget (which is very similar to how danbooru operates in that regard). Some artists are even attacked for holding that vision of the chracter, as seen in post #5646251. And remember, Bridget has been a recognized otokonoko for 20 years. There's no way to erase that, so of course, lots of people still see Bridget an otokonoko, just like a lot of other people and artists consider the character trans now.

Firstly, Sanctity already sums up my thoughts excellently so I won't add another wall of text.

Diet_Soda said:
If true, isn't that essentially the same reasoning as us keeping the "boy" tag for practical reasons? And while I haven't seen JP artists go out of their way to flat out deny Bridget's transness, it's apparent from twitter & pixiv fanbase interactions that the overwhelming majority of them simply doesn't care about this anywhere as much as we do (I'm also confused as to how the linked pic is a trans joke, if anything it only enforces the idea that dick = not a girl and vice versa).

Realistically I don't care either, as it stands, my blacklist is empty. However I do care if boys show up when I didn't explicitly ask for them, and again, I've seen no reason to consider the character any differently now than I would before just because of words or attempts to mascotize the character with a flag.

Diet_Soda said:

If true, isn't that essentially the same reasoning as us keeping the "boy" tag for practical reasons? And while I haven't seen JP artists go out of their way to flat out deny Bridget's transness, it's apparent from twitter & pixiv fanbase interactions that the overwhelming majority of them simply doesn't care about this anywhere as much as we do (I'm also confused as to how the linked pic is a trans joke, if anything it only enforces the idea that dick = not a girl and vice versa).

otoko no ko definitely requires the same practicality considerations over here, but as for 1boy/1girl, it's just equal but opposite demands from people who are looking for different things out of those tags. Which is pretty much why we've had to put that up to a vote. (And I believe that picture is parodying Bridget's "because I'm a girl" line, even though it's flippant.)

feline_lump said:
And I believe that picture is parodying Bridget's "because I'm a girl" line, even though it's flippant.

There's nothing to indicate this unless you count every instance of the word "girl" as a parody of it. That's a classic otoko no ko "it's a girl, but not really~~" gag image (complete with the artist, predictably, referring to Bridget as a he on their twitter). I have yet to see a Japanese artist uploaded here treat Bridget as a trans female in the same sense Western ones do, which loops back to the argument about Danbooru being a site with a strong focus on Japanese content - I don't have an issue with adjusting tags on images that explicitly celebrate Bridget as a girl, but it doesn't feel right to let a small handful of Western-sourced posts override a majority that can be assumed, with near certainty, to depict a feminine boy.

Basically, there is all this "I have to see japanese call Bridget trans".
Daisuke Ishiwatari is Japanese says she is a trans woman. Even better, Daisuke Ishiwatari literally created the character.
I mean, unless there is a special rule I don't know ? Like "we respect the first level of artist who depict characters but not the second (ie Daisuke)", which would literally mean that we would disrespect the creator of the character lol.

yototata1 said:

Basically, there is all this "I have to see japanese call Bridget trans".
Daisuke Ishiwatari is Japanese says she is a trans woman. Even better, Daisuke Ishiwatari literally created the character.
I mean, unless there is a special rule I don't know ? Like "we respect the first level of artist who depict characters but not the second (ie Daisuke)", which would literally mean that we would disrespect the creator of the character lol.

There's a vote to change the tags on the previous page, page 14, you can go vote on it if you'd like!

yototata1 said:

Basically, there is all this "I have to see japanese call Bridget trans".
Daisuke Ishiwatari is Japanese says she is a trans woman. Even better, Daisuke Ishiwatari literally created the character.
I mean, unless there is a special rule I don't know ? Like "we respect the first level of artist who depict characters but not the second (ie Daisuke)", which would literally mean that we would disrespect the creator of the character lol.

Which is all well and good, but doesn't change the fact that Bridget is biologically male. No one would have a leg to stand on here if he was canonically genderswapped.

Akebono_no_Hikari said:

Which is all well and good, but doesn't change the fact that Bridget is biologically male. No one would have a leg to stand on here if he was canonically genderswapped.

maybe if the 1boy and 1girl tags were called 1male and 1female instead of being gendered...

morriganaensland said:

maybe if the 1boy and 1girl tags were called 1male and 1female instead of being gendered...

The site's only a bit younger than Bridget is, and I don't see it as worth changing them even though it IS possible, you're then requiring everyone now remember it's searched for and tagged as this, same with all derived tags (2boys, 2girls, multiple_girls, and so on). I mean you could add aliases but then what's the point?

Akebono no Hikari said:
Which is all well and good, but doesn't change the fact that Bridget is biologically male. No one would have a leg to stand on here if he was canonically genderswapped.

Nobody would likely care, me included, but that's not the reality. They're not in the game, and fanart does it rarely (where it is yes, appropriate to use 1girl).

evazion said:

BUR #12569 has been rejected.

mass update bridget_(guilty_gear) guilty_gear_strive 1boy rating:general -> 1girl -1boy -otoko_no_ko -male_focus -crossdressing

This would tag Bridget as a girl on all SFW Guilty Gear Strive posts. See bridget_(guilty_gear) guilty_gear_strive rating:general to see which posts this would affect.

This would also remove the otoko no ko, male focus, and crossdressing tags from these posts.

SFW means rating:G, so nothing with a penis or bulge visible. Compare with bridget_(guilty_gear) guilty_gear_strive -rating:g to see which posts would not be tagged as a girl.

Please read the thread to see all the pros and cons of this idea. It's been discussed at length so all that's left is to put it to a vote.

Noticed that a lot of the "people" voting yes in your little poll are accounts created TODAY.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947159
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947169
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947171
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947180
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947184
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947185
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947186
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947197

I wouldn't be surprised if you'll end up with a hundred yes votes, all made by the two or three fanatics keeping this thread from dying.

Mavado said:

Noticed that a lot of the "people" voting yes in your little poll are accounts created TODAY.

https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947159
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947169
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947171
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947180
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947184
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947185
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947186
https://danbooru.donmai.us/users/947197

I wouldn't be surprised if you'll end up with a hundred yes votes, all made by the two or three fanatics keeping this thread from dying.

Nah, I personally got informed about the voting poll, so I decided to finally make an official account on this site to stop transphobic clowns like you from winning. She is canonically a girl, the series itself and it's creators confirmed that. Cry more about it, you're on the wrong side. =P

Votes from offsite brigades will be ignored.

Thank you Izumi ! And thank you for representing Bridget as a girl in mind <3

Akebono_no_Hikari said:

Which is all well and good, but doesn't change the fact that Bridget is biologically male. No one would have a leg to stand on here if he was canonically genderswapped.

I'm sorry to put it this way, but I highly advise you read about biology and research because your statement is incorect. You can read my comment page 12 or 13 but it isn't biology only as this topic is really hard. Again, it's not against you or to say you are bad, this is just scientifically incorect.

I wouldn't be surprised if you'll end up with a hundred yes votes, all made by the two or three fanatics keeping this thread from dying.

Or it could be person's like me who are deeply affected by this subject and created an account because this site matters to them and want it to move forward.
Again, this is not against you, but you maybe should reflect on why you are so much on the defensive that you litterally doubt people care about this subject. Not against you, saying itagain, but it does seem strange to me.