Bridget (GG Strive) gender

blindVigil said:

Transgender people don't just magically become the opposite sex just by existing in tandem with the transgender flag. Artists acknowledging that she's transgender by including the flag in the image doesn't mean they've drawn her as a girl; it means they acknowledge that she's transgender. Unless they outright say she's physically a girl in the art, we're not in any position to assume that she is, with or without the transgender flag being depicted.

But the artist is basically saying she's a girl in those? That's what I'm confused on right now. Those images aren't NSFW. They don't show a dick or anything. Just the trans flag and Bridget. Why would that be under 1boy? Is that not mistagging?

blindVigil said:

Transgender people don't just magically become the opposite gender just by existing in tandem with the transgender flag. Artists acknowledging that she's transgender by including the flag in the image doesn't mean they've drawn her as a girl; it means they acknowledge that she's transgender. Unless they outright say she's physically a girl in the art, we're not in any position to assume that she is, with or without the transgender flag being depicted.

I'll be far ruder, and say ESR "Your identity is not your choice" because Bridget's backstory is born male, and raised female, and explicit genderswap art notwithstanding, he's 1boy.

g6672D said:

I'll be far ruder, and say ESR "Your identity is not your choice" because Bridget's backstory is born male, and raised female, and explicit genderswap art notwithstanding, he's 1boy.

That isn't why this discussion is being had. There was apparently some reveal that she's actually transgender recently. Nothing to do with her backstory. I can see why some people would think this is some headcanon, but it's very likely to be canon considering the recent reveal.

sadodere said:

But wouldn't that mean we should also have a nonbinary tag for canonly nonbinary characters and all that? The 1other tag can only help so far when it comes to that.

1other is a complicated case. It's meant for when a character lacks a confirmed gender and can't be reliably identified from visual features. It's meant to be used alongside androgynous and ambiguous gender, for when you can see their physical features, such as face, but can't determine one way or the other, and for when you can't see any determining features, such as when wearing a full set of gender-neutral armor, respectively. Physically nonbinary characters are already covered by this, I think, so the issue would solely be with nonbinary identifying ones.

Maybe we could make a nonbinary tag if there's a need for it, but the current topic is a trans person of known sex and known gender identity, so that topic should get its own thread if it's worth discussing.

This would require canon tagging, but... I will also point out that her actually being born a boy could also be considered canon tagging. Had I not had any previous information on Bridget, I'd take a look at her and think she's a girl. Her name doesn't help at all in that regard, either.

This is quite literally what I said at the end of my post but thank you for reiterating it.

sadodere said:

But the artist is basically saying she's a girl in those? That's what I'm confused on right now. Those images aren't NSFW. They don't show a dick or anything. Just the trans flag and Bridget. Why would that be under 1boy? Is that not mistagging?

Because how you identify and the body you have don't always match? I'm having a difficult time figuring out what you're confused about. Trans people do not magically change sexes. Bridget is a trans girl, she is however, not biologically a girl. The artist saying she's transgender is not the artist saying she doesn't have male genitalia.

sadodere said:

That isn't why this discussion is being had. There was apparently some reveal that she's actually transgender recently. Nothing to do with her backstory. I can see why some people would think this is some headcanon, but it's very likely to be canon considering the recent reveal.

I am not counting what someone lied-by-ommission-and-falsification about localization any more than what is extrapolated from a point in a story arc in the game.

g6672D said:

I am not counting what someone lied-by-ommission-and-falsification about localization any more than what is extrapolated from a point in a story arc in the game.

Cope

blindVigil said:

Because how you identify and the body you have don't always match? I'm having a difficult time figuring out what you're confused about. Trans people do not magically change sexes. Bridget is a trans girl, she is however, not biologically a girl. The artist saying she's transgender is not the artist saying she doesn't have male genitalia.

I'm moreso asking, what is the point of having to tag biological sex?

blindVigil said:

1other is a complicated case. It's meant for when a character lacks a confirmed gender and can't be reliably identified from visual features. It's meant to be used alongside androgynous and ambiguous gender, for when you can see their physical features, such as face, but can't determine one way or the other, and for when you can't see any determining features, such as when wearing a full set of gender-neutral armor, respectively. Physically nonbinary characters are already covered by this, I think, so the issue would solely be with nonbinary identifying ones.

Maybe we could make a nonbinary tag if there's a need for it, but the current topic is a trans person of known sex and known gender identity, so that topic should get its own thread if it's worth discussing.

I was mainly asking here since nonbinary technically counts under transgender. And yes, 1other is indeed a very complicated case. By physically nonbinary, do you mean intersex and/or genderless? Sorry, kinda confused by this.

This is quite literally what I said at the end of my post but thank you for reiterating it.

Omg you're welcome!

I kinda feel like we are running in circles and the discussions isn't being productive anymore, so I would like to reinforce that I support BlindVigil's idea and suggestions in forum #218990.

I think it's important to keep in mind that Danbooru only cares about a character's sex, not their gender. This should not be taken as Danbooru making a statement against the importance of gender broadly, just that it's not what searchers are going to be interested in. If people are searching for feminine boys, they should get them. This leaves the question of whether Bridget is trans to be irrelevant.

My overall conclusion is this:

• For characters whose sex is canonically male, and which are androgynous, and therefore don't demonstrate any female traits (ie. breasts), they should be tagged as male.

This leaves characters like Bridget tagged as a boy, and characters like kirihara torajyuro tatsumune can continue to be tagged as female because they have breasts.

I am therefore broadly in favour of evazion's Option 2. Unless there's some explicit genderswap going on as a result of artistic license, I think Bridget should always be tagged as a boy.

sadodere said:

I'm moreso asking, what is the point of having to tag biological sex?

Because it's how the gender count tags work, it's how they've aways worked, and in this case changing them would break numerous other tags, which evazion has already thoroughly covered. I don't have a more satisfactory answer for you, if what was said before you even asked wasn't enough.

sadodere said:

I was mainly asking here since nonbinary technically counts under transgender. And yes, 1other is indeed a very complicated case. By physically nonbinary, do you mean intersex and/or genderless? Sorry, kinda confused by this.

Both, but mostly genderless. Intersex is a complicated term, and I think most cases that would appear on danbooru would just fall under other tags.

evazion said:

The first option quickly runs into problems. If Bridget is a girl, then should we remove the otoko no ko tag? If they kiss a girl, is that yuri? If they give oral to a guy, is that hetero instead of yaoi? If they're topless, are they a topless flat chested girl or a topless male? If they have abs, are they a muscular female or a toned male? If they masturbate, are they engaging in female masturbation or male masturbation? Do they have female orgasms or male orgasms? Do they have female pubic hair or male pubic hair? And on and on.

Not specific to Bridget, but I think it'd make more sense to generally treat a transgender character, when their physical form (or genitals) is not visibly shown, as we'd treat a other character when it comes to those kinds of gender associated tags. A character who is transgender could be at any stage or variation of transition, from changing simply how they live and dress to changing their physical form to match how they identify, and all degrees of transition between. Unless it's canonically known/shown how they look under their garments, then we don't actually know what is there and what they may have done for their transition, so it'd put them closer to other characters in that regards of ambiguity. So for example, assuming we go with Bridget being a transgirl, if we have an image of Bridget masturbating with nothing being shown down there, then we should simply use the plain masturbation tag instead of using either male or female masturbation tags.

NWF_Renim said:

Not specific to Bridget, but I think it'd make more sense to generally treat a transgender character, when their physical form (or genitals) is not visibly shown, as we'd treat a other character when it comes to those kinds of gender associated tags. A character who is transgender could be at any stage or variation of transition, from changing simply how they live and dress to changing their physical form to match how they identify, and all degrees of transition between. Unless it's canonically known/shown how they look under their garments, then we don't actually know what is there and what they may have done for their transition, so it'd put them closer to other characters in that regards of ambiguity. So for example, assuming we go with Bridget being a transgirl, if we have an image of Bridget masturbating with nothing being shown down there, then we should simply use the plain masturbation tag instead of using either male or female masturbation tags.

The damage is done, so to speak. Bridget has a story. Astolfo cross-dresses. Who has time to keep up with every character and their whims and fancies?

sadodere said:

That isn't why this discussion is being had. There was apparently some reveal that she's actually transgender recently. Nothing to do with her backstory.

It's not so much a reveal as a new development. Bridget's story in the latest game is a journey of debating which gender to go with, now that the pressure to be one or the other is gone. It concludes with a choice to identify as a girl.

https://vxtwitter.com/Marcanthony737/status/1556674286835961865

In a sense, it's just updating the character to use more contemporary parlance, since Bridget is a famous 'trap', but the term 'trap' is regarded as an epithet now.

It seems like a lot of people talking that tagging should be based on "biological" sex as opposed to what the character identifies as or what a the creator states them to be.

Yet SFW images will make that hard, as people have stated previously in the thread, and if we make it so the "intention"of the original artist and a character wearing a transgender is not good enough we're gonna start really running into probelms. Are we gonna tag all images of Hoshikawa_Lily as 1boy because she's transgender and thus "biologically" a guy even though no one really treats her as one. We tag NSFW of Lily with a penis as 1boy and while I personally don't agree with that tagging I understand it. Tagging Bridget as a boy at all times, especially ones inspired by the scene in Strive, is just going to result in a giant tag war every single time. There are already images of Bridget with large breasts and it's going to become just more of a thing as artists adopt that scene into their personal canon. Are we gonna call that all genderswap?

Fortuna said:

It's not so much a reveal as a new development. Bridget's story in the latest game is a journey of debating which gender to go with, now that the pressure to be one or the other is gone. It concludes with a choice to identify as a girl.

https://vxtwitter.com/Marcanthony737/status/1556674286835961865

In a sense, it's just updating the character to use more contemporary parlance, since Bridget is a famous 'trap', but the term 'trap' is regarded as an epithet now.

You could have the world's most concrete evidence of Bridget being trans and people will still grasp at straws to prove you wrong. This conversation truly has gotten repetitive, it's clear nothing will truly change here. All I can recommend is just dealing with it, some people are still so obsessed with biological sex on this website that there's no point even trying to bring up the thousands of mistagged SFW pictures of transgender characters that don't even show any hints of bio sex.

Canti said:

It seems like a lot of people talking that tagging should be based on "biological" sex as opposed to what the character identifies as or what a the creator states them to be.

Yet SFW images will make that hard, as people have stated previously in the thread, and if we make it so the "intention"of the original artist and a character wearing a transgender is not good enough. Are we gonna tag all images of Hoshikawa_Lily as 1boy because she's transgender and thus "biologically" a guy even though no one really treats her as one. We tag NSFW of Lily with a penis as 1boy and while I personally don't agree with that tagging I understand it. Tagging Bridget as a boy at all times, especially ones inspired by the scene in Strive, is just going to result in a giant tag war every single time. There are already images of Bridget with large breasts and it's going to become just more of a thing as artists adopt that scene into their personal canon. Are we gonna call that all genderswap?

Thank you, exactly my point - you worded it much better than I did. It's just to focus on biological sex when it isn't relevant in most art.

Canti said:

It seems like a lot of people talking that tagging should be based on "biological" sex as opposed to what the character identifies as or what a the creator states them to be.

Yet SFW images will make that hard, as people have stated previously in the thread, and if we make it so the "intention"of the original artist and a character wearing a transgender is not good enough we're gonna start really running into probelms. Are we gonna tag all images of Hoshikawa_Lily as 1boy because she's transgender and thus "biologically" a guy even though no one really treats her as one. We tag NSFW of Lily with a penis as 1boy and while I personally don't agree with that tagging I understand it. Tagging Bridget as a boy at all times, especially ones inspired by the scene in Strive, is just going to result in a giant tag war every single time. There are already images of Bridget with large breasts and it's going to become just more of a thing as artists adopt that scene into their personal canon. Are we gonna call that all genderswap?

You guys are forgetting that Hoshikawa_Lily is tagged like that for a very specific reason. See forum #152601, where it was discussed.

sadodere said:

You could have the world's most concrete evidence of Bridget being trans and people will still grasp at straws to prove you wrong. This conversation truly has gotten repetitive, it's clear nothing will truly change here. All I can recommend is just dealing with it, some people are still so obsessed with biological sex on this website that there's no point even trying to bring up the thousands of mistagged SFW pictures of transgender characters that don't even show any hints of bio sex.

None of those posts are mistagged because the gender tags are being used exactly as they're supposed to be. One person has tried to deny Bridget is trans since this thread was unlocked. We're even explicitly trying to work out a way to tag her that doesn't render our tagging system into an unintelligible mess.

Your obsession with artist intent is frankly more problematic than us trying to maintain some level of useful tag consistency. You do not know those artists, you do not know what they're intent is. Instead of trying to actually be helpful, all you're doing is holding everything up by claiming to know what an artist is thinking just because they included the trans pride flag in their art. That flag has no such meaning that a character depicted with it has just magically changed sex. It is a symbol of trans pride. If an artist intends to depict a character contrary to typical depictions or known information, they would almost always say so, lack of any such confirmation leaves it reasonable to assume nothing about the character is any different from the norm.