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nonamethanks said:
Yeah, there's a clip where Bridget says he's a man too: https://twitter.com/Furious_blog/status/1556734225831063552. This meltdown is pretty funny at this point.
Yes, that is at the beginning of the game. We're going to need something in the way of evidence that avoidable endings in Guilty Gear are either not canon, or not considered canon by most fans.
nonamethanks said:
Yeah, there's a clip where Bridget says he's a man too: https://twitter.com/Furious_blog/status/1556734225831063552. This meltdown is pretty funny at this point.
Even not taking into account how the character act, which is up to interpretation (even if in my opinion she is clearly dubitative when she says she is a boy, and when she comes out she is litterally vibin' lol). Even then, this section happens before the ending in which she comes out. So this is a fallacious argument there.
The only valable argument about her not being a girl is the fact that in one of the ending she did not come out. But in this version she still says about giving it a thought and not clearly adopt a men gender. Still, not gonna lie, up to debate.
But it doesn't come close to end the discussion. We were discussing trans characters in general. And no solutions about current situation on this website has been brought up.
Which is mainly :
-Inconsistencies in how we manage characters. Tag what you see is not well applicated since Astolfo conforms to female in clothing, so do Bridget. But they do not feel the same. (And we can expand the debate really, there are some trans character that we know about still being misgendered)
feline_lump said:
Yes, that is at the beginning of the game. We're going to need something in the way of evidence that avoidable endings in Guilty Gear are either not canon, or not considered canon by most fans.
Arcade mode stories in Guilty Gear and Blazblue are separate from, and secondary to, the main story mode. They break with canon story outcomes all the time, and sometimes have fully gag endings that are blatantly non-canon.
Not to muddy the waters, but Bridget's headwear has the androgyne symbol.
https://mogai-genders.fandom.com/wiki/Androgyne
So rather than fighting about girl/boy, maybe Bridget should be non-binary (1other)?
1other is for when you can't tell the gender from the face or genitals. Bridget in most cases either looks like a woman or a man, so it's not 1other.
This was already explained to you in forum #191981, forum #207776 and forum #211635, so I'm starting to wonder if you're doing this on purpose or if you just have Alzheimer's.
nonamethanks said:
1other is for when you can't tell the gender from the face or genitals. Bridget in most cases either looks like a woman or a man, so it's not 1other.
This was already explained to you in forum #191981, forum #207776 and forum #211635, so I'm starting to wonder if you're doing this on purpose or if you just have Alzheimer's.
Yeah that's rich coming from you.
punished_K said:
Not to muddy the waters, but Bridget's headwear has the androgyne symbol.
https://mogai-genders.fandom.com/wiki/Androgyne
So rather than fighting about girl/boy, maybe Bridget should be non-binary (1other)?
I'll have to go against this. 1other is meant to be used for characters where you can't tell, where their gender isn't stated in canon, when they're genderless, etc. That could include nonbinary I guess, but that would involve canon tagging which is annoying to some people.
Personally, I still think it wouldn't hurt to have the 1girl tag for images where you can't see the bulge/penis/etc. Makes stuff easier that way. When people look up 1boy, most want to see masculine characters. When I want to see otoko no ko (which I love, if it isn't clear by my post history), I look up otoko no ko - not 1boy. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this.
1other is for when you can't tell the gender from the face or genitals.
Genitals can be a decent indicator but I wouldn't recommend going off faces, seeing as how the otoko no ko genre exists.
sadodere said:
Genitals can be a decent indicator but I wouldn't recommend going off faces, seeing as how the otoko no ko genre exists.
Keep in mind that there's very few results under 1other otoko_no_ko (and arguably a lot of them are wrong), because you usually can tell whether a character is (drawn as) a boy or a girl. 1other is meant to be for things like covered faces, a character facing away, or completely androgynous characters with no hint of gender (such as the gems from houseki no kuni). If we switch our policy, posts where characters look like girls would just get tagged 1girl, not 1other, and characters that are perfectly androgynous with no suggestion of pecs or breasts are fairly rare unless the artist is specifically aiming for that effect.
nonamethanks said:
Keep in mind that there's very few results under 1other otoko_no_ko (and arguably a lot of them are wrong), because you usually can tell whether a character is (drawn as) a boy or a girl. 1other is meant to be for things like covered faces, a character facing away, or completely androgynous characters with no hint of gender (such as the gems from houseki no kuni). If we switch our policy, posts where characters look like girls would just get tagged 1girl, not 1other, and characters that are perfectly androgynous with no suggestion of pecs or breasts are fairly rare unless the artist is specifically aiming for that effect.
I'd say the 1other tag has changed a little over the years already. Characters shouldn't really be tagged both 1other otoko_no_ko, right? Unless there's two characters in the image already.
But I'm also talking about traps, such as our boy Astolfo who keeps being mentioned here. He looks like a girl but, no, he's actually a crossdresser. A lot of anime characters break gender norms when it comes to appearance. But if genitals are present, that's probably a telltale sign of what the artist intended.
sadodere said:
Personally, I still think it wouldn't hurt to have the 1girl tag for images where you can't see the bulge/penis/etc. Makes stuff easier that way. When people look up 1boy, most want to see masculine characters. When I want to see otoko no ko (which I love, if it isn't clear by my post history), I look up otoko no ko - not 1boy. I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this.
I guess there's some confusion regarding TWYS. "Tag What You See" is preferably in most cases, but not the extreme norm of danbooru. The whole point of otoko no ko are boys that look like girls. Tagging otoko no ko as 1girl when genitals or bulge are not visible is weird af. It's the same bizarre system of e621, where a character like Astolfo would be tagged as "female" and have a "male (lore)" along. Extreme TWYS like this wouldn't work in danbooru at all.
mongirlfan said:
I guess there's some confusion regarding TWYS. "Tag What You See" is preferably in most cases, but not the extreme norm of danbooru. The whole point of otoko no ko are boys that look like girls. Tagging otoko no ko as 1girl when genitals or bulge are not visible is weird af. It's the same bizarre system of e621, where a character like Astolfo would be tagged as "female" and have a "male (lore)" along. Extreme TWYS like this wouldn't work in danbooru at all.
Yeah, that is confusing. In most cases on Pixiv the artist has the otoko no ko tag which helps a lot, but still.
I wonder if some of this confusion in specific comes from the confusion between otoko no ko and crossdressing? Since one is meant to be boys who look feminine and the other is meant to be for like, traps or something. There are overlaps between the two despite them also having distinct differences, such as crossdressing otoko no ko-s. Both of these aren't meant to be confused with transgender, though.
I think the point OP was trying to bring up was that Bridget is no longer an otoko no ko at this point, apparently. This change should only apply to Bridget and other characters of similar situations, not cases like Astolfo.
Admittedly though, I myself have never played this game or anything. I'm just seeing what people are saying both here and online, which may be why I come off as somewhat confused as well. This is an argument that has been brought up with other characters in the past, such as Narukami Arashi who is canonly transgender as well.
sadodere said:
Yeah, that is confusing. In most cases on Pixiv the artist has the otoko no ko tag which helps a lot, but still.
I wonder if some of this confusion in specific comes from the confusion between otoko no ko and crossdressing? Since one is meant to be boys who look feminine and the other is meant to be for like, traps or something. There are overlaps between the two despite them also having distinct differences, such as crossdressing otoko no ko-s. Both of these aren't meant to be confused with transgender, though.
Yeah I agree the two concepts often overlap and that's expected, but your definition of crossdressing is off. Manly guys and girls crossdress as well.
feline_lump said:
Yes, that is at the beginning of the game. We're going to need something in the way of evidence that avoidable endings in Guilty Gear are either not canon, or not considered canon by most fans.
8086 said:
Arcade mode stories in Guilty Gear and Blazblue are separate from, and secondary to, the main story mode. They break with canon story outcomes all the time, and sometimes have fully gag endings that are blatantly non-canon.
While generally true, to my understanding, the arcade mode stories in Strive have, thus far, been entirely canon, with all the variations one can get in them taken as one grander whole rather than segmented timelines. The whole notion of there being bad endings in Strive only entered discussion after Bridget came out, which is all that needs to be said about the validity of that argument.
The ending one gets when you have flawless victories does not contradict the ending where she declares herself a woman. If even places like Pixiv acknowledge this, then what are we doing?
Of course, one could easily nitpick my argument. By now, the thread is just going back and forth on the matter, and growing beyond its original scope. The only thing that will at this point actually end the Bridget part of this discussion, here and elsewhere online, is an official statement from ArcSys. If Testament, a character we've known to be androgynous/non-binary for basically 20 years, got a proper confirmation of non-binaryhood from an ArcSys rep at the Arc Revo America fighting game tournament finals, then it is almost certain we'll hear a statement about Bridget in the coming future.
mongirlfan said:
Because it's... weird? Should we treat Astolfo at all times as a female except when his dick is out?
It's not just weird, it's a horrible idea. Some might say people doing girl focused searches would want things like this included, and I wouldn't say you're wrong, but how many posts do you actually think that's going to add to a search? Posts where Astolfo's gender is truly ambiguous are actually pretty hard to come by, and he only has around 5k posts. 1girl has almost 4 million. 1boy is only 800k, and otoko no ko only 36k. You're not gaining much by deciding that all feminine boys be tagged as girls.
Not to mention, that way of tagging would completely ruin otoko no ko and crossdressing. We know this character is a boy, because there's information available somewhere that says so, but we're tagging him 1girl cause he's dressed very convincingly as a girl, but then it doesn't make any sense for us to tag it with either of those tags, because 1girl wearing a dress isn't crossdressing nor an otoko no ko.
That's not even the worst consequence. TWYS has never been an ironclad rule, some things just need to be tagged using outside information. If we decided that the gender tags should also ignore canon information and adhere strictly to TWYS, then all consistency and reliability goes out the window. Even if it was limited to certain characters, like Bridget or Astolfo, it would still be an utter disaster. It would turn the gender counts into subjective messes, where anyone would be justified coming along and saying, "this character is tagged 1girl but I think they look like a boy, so I'm going to change it to 1boy instead." and now we have people arguing constantly over whether or not this or that character is more feminine or masculine in this or that post.
Sure, something like e621's "male (lore)" tags might get around some of these problems, but on top of just being ridiculous to make however many stupid looking (lore) tags would be needed, it's just a pointless circle. "Male (lore)" is literally just our 1boy, all we'd have done is flip our gender tags upside down just to remake them under a different name to fix a problem we made for no reason.
sadodere said:
When I want to see otoko no ko (which I love, if it isn't clear by my post history), I look up otoko no ko - not 1boy.
That may be so, but I'd still want to see those otoko no ko characters when I'm searching for 1boy, not when I'm searching 1girl. Outside of explicitly genderswapped art like post #3360941, having characters like Astolfo, Venti or Ansel show up in a 1girl solo search would defy absolutely all logic as far as I'm concerned, no matter how convincingly female the artist has drawn them.
nonamethanks said:
Keep in mind that there's very few results under 1other otoko_no_ko (and arguably a lot of them are wrong), because you usually can tell whether a character is (drawn as) a boy or a girl.
FYI, that search probably has so few results because I regularly clean out otoko_no_ko -1boy -multiple_boys -gender_request -character_doll -mug_writing -dakimakura_(object) -manga_(object) status:any -rating:e. (Someone feel free to clean the explicit ones.)
nonamethanks said:
It matters if someone is beating their meat to yuri and they find post #3782399 because some genius decided that they're both women, or they're searching for 1girl seductive_smile and find post #5573960.
If other people's sexual preferences offend you, feel free to make your own site where there is no tagging logic and everything goes.
"If other people's sexual preferences offend you."
So, what you're saying is that liking trans people is an option? Of course it'd be if you don't think trans women = women and trans men = men, pretty weird statement. When it is at the user to just blacklist the tags of the genitalia they wouldn't want to see.
Kamsthetics said:
"If other people's sexual preferences offend you."
So, what you're saying is that liking trans people is an option? Of course it'd be if you don't think trans women = women and trans men = men, pretty weird statement. When it is at the user to just blacklist the tags of the genitalia they wouldn't want to see.
What? Okay, but, blacklisting penis would also hide hetero posts, you realize? Just because someone is doing a search with girls as the focal point doesn't mean they explicitly don't want any of those posts featuring men as well.
