Bridget (GG Strive) gender

Yoto_tata said:

Yes you are right. So I have a question about this, isn't that too restrictive ? My point of view being there is very few transgender tag.
So... maybe we can change it ? I don't think it will destroy everything that has been posted to this day, what do you think ?

You're not exactly being precise with what change you want or why we should change it.
I don't know how experienced you are with this site, but you should take a look at this rule of thumb:

howto:tag said:
Tag what you see, not what you know. In other words, only tag the visual and factual elements in the image. For example, images where the full moon is prominently depicted will have a full_moon tag. Ideally you should use an existing tag on Danbooru.
This means you should not tag what you know about a character. For example remilia_scarlet is supposed to be a vampire, but don't tag every picture depicting her with the vampire tag. Only use the vampire tag if the characteristics are clearly visible.

It's how we do things here, see Miia's example.

sadodere said:

That's why the transgender tag would be added. If they blacklist it, images such as the one you sent shouldn't show up.

The blacklist does not exist as a solution to bad tagging practices. What about people that want to find cute boys getting fucked? They would want to find my example post. Tagging it 1girl also opens up concerns of hetero vs yaoi, and forces anyone that would normally do a 1boy anal search to have to create a nonsensical composite search just to find all those trans girls that look no different from any other boy.

There's a reason tag what you see is the defacto policy of the site.

This is why I suggested trans girl/trans boy. They wouldn't be gender count tags, they would just be standalone tags, possibly implicated to transgender, to help find or hide trans characters, without making the entire site worse for everyone else. They don't need to have numbers, because trans characters really aren't that common, it's unlikely to ever be particularly useful to count the number of trans characters in a post.

Are people really using 1boy anal to find posts of boys being fucked? Why would they use a search that returns 99% of all heterosexual anal posts on top of that? You could hypothetically just search ~otoko_no_ko ~transgender anal if that's your particular preference. Trans characters can also inherit the futanari clause of being excluded from hetero/yaoi/yuri when they're in explicit posts.

Trans girl and trans boy as subsets of transgender sound perfectly fine. I'm just confused about the constant hangup over *boy(s)/*girl(s).

feline_lump said:

Are people really using 1boy anal to find posts of boys being fucked? Why would they use a search that returns 99% of all heterosexual anal posts on top of that? You could hypothetically just search ~otoko_no_ko ~transgender anal if that's your particular preference. Trans characters can also inherit the futanari clause of being excluded from hetero/yaoi/yuri when they're in explicit posts.

Trans girl and trans boy as subsets of transgender sound perfectly fine. I'm just confused about the constant hangup over *boy(s)/*girl(s).

It was just an, admittedly poor, example, to illustrate that a change like tagging Bridget as a girl instead of a boy removes them from searches they should be in and adds them to searches they shouldn't be. Not everyone knows all the existing tags and searching tricks on the site, most will default to very simple searches using common terms.

I'm not sure about that exclusion, though. It makes sense for futa characters, because they're a fantasy "gender" and don't really fit categorically. We do still however tag them as girls. Keeping Bridget as an example, they are 100% biologically male. Excluding them from yaoi or hetero posts on principle of something not even visually evident in the post is counter-productive.

I'm not sure why creating a new transgender ( transboy / transgirl ) tagging system and adding that on top of tagging characters by sex characteristics is confusing. It's unlikely that people come to the site and search for the single unique clothing tags that are used with much frequency, but those are used. If you want to tag by what you see, tag genitals, but include the trans tags as well. It seems like a weird argument to me that's largely based in transphobia.

feline_lump said:
I'm just confused about the constant hangup over *boy(s)/*girl(s).

It's more of an issue for searching for posts with specific numbers of characters in romantic/sexual contexts, and for tags that derive from *boy/*girl. fff threesome/mmm threesome immediately come to mind.
yaoi was actually a valid example from blindVigil: look at the post versions for this or this or this. Continuing to add exceptions to the usage of these tags is not a great idea imo, especially when the characters in question look exactly like any other 1boy/1girl.
yaoi is also one of the most blacklisted tags on site, and making this kind of change without thinking VERY well about it means that suddenly thousands of users will have thousands of posts hidden from their searches and won't even know it.

The idea of tagging Bridget as a girl if you can't see his willy and tagging him as a guy when you can is absurd. Anyone even remotely familiar with the character knows who he is and that he's a guy, so why would they want to see him show up in search results when looking for female tags? This only remotely makes sense if you assume it's purely a change made for people who have no idea who Bridget is and wouldn't know they're jerking off to a trap until they look through his character tag and oops, suddenly there's pictures of him with his dick out tagged as a guy instead.
And even without his dick out you have images like post #5576530, post #4147326, post #556520, and post #692499. How is someone supposed to tag these? Based on how masculine or feminine the person tagging them perceives Bridget's frame as being? That's hugely subjective and rife for conflicts in tagging between people who don't agree on it.

It's easy to see how this would be a problem elsewhere too. post #4520538 and post #4520546 for example. In the first post the character looks like a girl, in the second post the character is revealed to be a guy. It's part of the same set of images. Should the character be tagged as a girl in the first post and a guy in the second post? Of course not; that wouldn't make any sense, because it's a crossdressing guy and the context informs the first post even if the first post alone does not make that clear. Tagging Bridget as a girl in a given image just because you can't physically verify his penis being present is both ignoring his established character and impossible to keep consistent since hell, what if the image of Strive Bridget is supposed to be him before he decides he identifies as a woman in the arcade story mode?

And what if in a future game there's another plotline about Bridget deciding he's a guy after all? Or it turns out this arcade mode's other dialogue was indeed him deciding to be a guy and it was only the bad end where he decides to be a girl? What if the next game has a branching story mode where the player can choose to make Bridget identify as a guy or a girl complete with pronoun selection? Do we then need to go back and revise all the existing Bridget images a second time and invent a new tag for Bridget_(schroedinger's_penis)? How is it not obvious what an unenforceable clusterfuck this situation is and that the most obvious sensible solution is just leaving his gender tag alone? Certainly at least for the time being since we don't even know what to make of the differing arcade mode outcomes at this point.

blindVigil said:

I'm not sure about that exclusion, though. It makes sense for futa characters, because they're a fantasy "gender" and don't really fit categorically. We do still however tag them as girls. Keeping Bridget as an example, they are 100% biologically male. Excluding them from yaoi or hetero posts on principle of something not even visually evident in the post is counter-productive.

Well, the futa exclusion was passed down to newhalf, meaning that we already have precedent for non-fantasy transgender characters being exempt from any gender classifications. I would personally rather do something that sidesteps the headache of arguing how gay or straight something is, but I'm open to any better ideas.

Anonymaster said:

The idea of tagging Bridget as a girl if you can't see his willy and tagging him as a guy when you can is absurd. Anyone even remotely familiar with the character knows who he is and that he's a guy, so why would they want to see him show up in search results when looking for female tags? This only remotely makes sense if you assume it's purely a change made for people who have no idea who Bridget is and wouldn't know they're jerking off to a trap until they look through his character tag and oops, suddenly there's pictures of him with his dick out tagged as a guy instead.

These were my thoughts as well, as far as I am aware this character has been a crossdresser/femboy icon for two decades and will be remembered as such by the vast majority of users who would seek out this kind of content. Rolling back years of history because of dialogue we don't even know the full implications of yet doesn't make sense to me (and neither does coming out of the woodwork to preach about "harmful fictional representations" on a website that has allowed loli rape porn since its inception).

feline_lump said:

Well, the futa exclusion was passed down to newhalf, meaning that we already have precedent for non-fantasy transgender characters being exempt from any gender classifications. I would personally rather do something that sidesteps the headache of arguing how gay or straight something is, but I'm open to any better ideas.

That's only because we treat newhalf as a futanari subset, and despite being more based in reality, it straddles the same categorical line. For all intents and purposes, a newhalf on this site is still visually just a girl with a dick. Bridget, regardless of canon gender, is still biologically male in the vast majority of their posts.

for these kinds of characters i default to artist intent, then to canon when that fails
if the artist explicitly mentions/draws the characters sex, then the character is that sex
else, return to default sex

so drawings that call bridget a girl and do not show penis without also being futa would be tagged 1girl, else its 1boy

i am also in favor of reforming the transgender tag to be a canon tag like ONK and vtuber are right now, so people can bulk search those topics

Anonymaster said:

The idea of tagging Bridget as a girl if you can't see his willy and tagging him as a guy when you can is absurd. Anyone even remotely familiar with the character knows who he is and that he's a guy, so why would they want to see him show up in search results when looking for female tags? This only remotely makes sense if you assume it's purely a change made for people who have no idea who Bridget is and wouldn't know they're jerking off to a trap until they look through his character tag and oops, suddenly there's pictures of him with his dick out tagged as a guy instead.
And even without his dick out you have images like post #5576530, post #4147326, post #556520, and post #692499. How is someone supposed to tag these? Based on how masculine or feminine the person tagging them perceives Bridget's frame as being? That's hugely subjective and rife for conflicts in tagging between people who don't agree on it.

It's easy to see how this would be a problem elsewhere too. post #4520538 and post #4520546 for example. In the first post the character looks like a girl, in the second post the character is revealed to be a guy. It's part of the same set of images. Should the character be tagged as a girl in the first post and a guy in the second post? Of course not; that wouldn't make any sense, because it's a crossdressing guy and the context informs the first post even if the first post alone does not make that clear. Tagging Bridget as a girl in a given image just because you can't physically verify his penis being present is both ignoring his established character and impossible to keep consistent since hell, what if the image of Strive Bridget is supposed to be him before he decides he identifies as a woman in the arcade story mode?

And what if in a future game there's another plotline about Bridget deciding he's a guy after all? Or it turns out this arcade mode's other dialogue was indeed him deciding to be a guy and it was only the bad end where he decides to be a girl? What if the next game has a branching story mode where the player can choose to make Bridget identify as a guy or a girl complete with pronoun selection? Do we then need to go back and revise all the existing Bridget images a second time and invent a new tag for Bridget_(schroedinger's_penis)? How is it not obvious what an unenforceable clusterfuck this situation is and that the most obvious sensible solution is just leaving his gender tag alone? Certainly at least for the time being since we don't even know what to make of the differing arcade mode outcomes at this point.

+1

Diet_Soda said:

These were my thoughts as well, as far as I am aware this character has been a crossdresser/femboy icon for two decades and will be remembered as such by the vast majority of users who would seek out this kind of content. Rolling back years of history because of dialogue we don't even know the full implications of yet doesn't make sense to me (and neither does coming out of the woodwork to preach about "harmful fictional representations" on a website that has allowed loli rape porn since its inception).

The proposed update is exclusively considering GG Strive. Older posts, where Bridget was still considered male, won't be affected. That wouldn't be hard to implement, in all honesty, but I agree that it's probably too soon to come to a conclusion in the midst of a bunch of fan backlash and drama.

blindVigil said:

That's only because we treat newhalf as a futanari subset, and despite being more based in reality, it straddles the same categorical line. For all intents and purposes, a newhalf on this site is still visually just a girl with a dick. Bridget, regardless of canon gender, is still biologically male in the vast majority of their posts.

I ultimately don't really mind if we consider transgender/trans girl to be mutually compatible with otoko no ko and all the tags that would imply for searching reasons, it's just a matter of what the community wants here. There are actually quite a few trans fetishism-related otoko no ko posts that are undertagged.

thelieutenant said:

for these kinds of characters i default to artist intent, then to canon when that fails
if the artist explicitly mentions/draws the characters sex, then the character is that sex
else, return to default sex

so drawings that call bridget a girl and do not show penis without also being futa would be tagged 1girl, else its 1boy

i am also in favor of reforming the transgender tag to be a canon tag like ONK and vtuber are right now, so people can bulk search those topics

I agree with the above quote. I would like to add my view (most likely already stated by many others):
Tags are supposed to be factual, in that someone who is unfamiliar with the franchise would be able to read the tag red_capelet in the list, and point it out in the image. With certain tags, such as medium_hair and long_hair, there will be a moderate amount of noise between taggers, other tags such as solo are mostly high confidence / binary.

We have issues with "canon tagging", i.e. adding tags common to a character, even when the visual features are not present (or only implied / not clear) in the illustration. The result of this poor tagging practice is that the overall confidence of a tag decreases and therewith becomes less useful as a tool to search for visual features. My view is that tags are tools to search for visual features, such as when you want to draw a pendulum and you need some reference material. IMO, tags do not describe the personality of a character, nor their "gender". How I see it, the 1girl and 1boy tags are describing the visual features of the character, such as the clothing, hair style, breasts, genitals, facial/body hair, overall anatomy, and (if applicable) their skin texture/complexity. These visual features combined are interpreted by us as either inclining towards male or female sex. This can differ from their "gender". It's up to you to consider a character a boy or a girl by gender (in your mind), but if their visual appearance in the illustration is that of a boy or a girl, the character should be tagged as such, as that is the purpose of a tag.

You guys might be forgetting or are newer to Danbooru, but the transgender tag already worked in the past as a canon-tag designed for "characters that doesn't identify themselves with their biological gender".

To be objective for someone who wants to search for a transgender character, and at the same time, to work with the "Tag what you see" principle, the tag worked this way: the trans character is tagged as 1girl/1boy according to their biological gender and of course gets tagged with transgender. That way you won't encounter something like post #3986394 while searching for 1girl.

But it quickly became a mess as per topic #17489 (where the transgender tag was originally discussed and created), and the general agreement was that it's better for the tag to be designed for posts about transgenderism instead of being a canon tag for characters that are said to be transgenders.

redtails said:

I agree with the above quote. I would like to add my view (most likely already stated by many others):
Tags are supposed to be factual, in that someone who is unfamiliar with the franchise would be able to read the tag red_capelet in the list, and point it out in the image. With certain tags, such as medium_hair and long_hair, there will be a moderate amount of noise between taggers, other tags such as solo are mostly high confidence / binary.

We have issues with "canon tagging", i.e. adding tags common to a character, even when the visual features are not present (or only implied / not clear) in the illustration. The result of this poor tagging practice is that the overall confidence of a tag decreases and therewith becomes less useful as a tool to search for visual features. My view is that tags are tools to search for visual features, such as when you want to draw a pendulum and you need some reference material. IMO, tags do not describe the personality of a character, nor their "gender". How I see it, the 1girl and 1boy tags are describing the visual features of the character, such as the clothing, hair style, breasts, genitals, facial/body hair, overall anatomy, and (if applicable) their skin texture/complexity. These visual features combined are interpreted by us as either inclining towards male or female sex. This can differ from their "gender". It's up to you to consider a character a boy or a girl by gender (in your mind), but if their visual appearance in the illustration is that of a boy or a girl, the character should be tagged as such, as that is the purpose of a tag.

If the issue is solely about visual tags at all, why bother using genders at all? Why not just stick to tagging the number of penises or vaginas in an image?

Tamarinne said:

If the issue is solely about visual tags at all, why bother using genders at all? Why not just stick to tagging the number of penises or vaginas in an image?

Because not every image has visible genitalia?

Tamarinne said:

If the issue is solely about visual tags at all, why bother using genders at all? Why not just stick to tagging the number of penises or vaginas in an image?

Sometimes men and women are drawn with clothes, so their genitals aren't visible. We do have a tag for penis etc., though. Our mind can still interpret other visual cues and be inclined to consider a character as having 1boy or 1girl sex. These tags do not describe their "gender" (= who they identify as), it describes their sex.

If the definitions of our tags go against your worldview, please consider that discrepancies between definitions for utilitarian purposes are not an issue. You can attribute any definition to 1girl that you like, for the purpose of communication. We aren't saying that you're wrong. Though, for the purpose of keeping tags objective, and be applicable to correct visual (non-canon) searches we need clear definition.

If you think something like post #5576530 or post #5576879 looks remotely masculine you've drank way too much kool-aid. The only reason these posts are tagged 1boy is because it's canonical knowledge (which doesn't even necessarily apply anymore). This is pretty contrary to how we generally prefer to operate the site. If I'm browsing for females as someone with no knowledge of GG or its characters, I would expect to see those two images, and if I don't then clearly we've gone wrong somewhere.

Obviously this only applies in cases where the character in question is indistinguishable from female (or male, I suppose). post #5573960 doesn't really look like a girl (because of pecs), even as a futanari enjoyer. Yes, that means in some cases one character would have to receive different gender tags between two posts. I don't see why this is a huge problem. We aren't going to insist on tagging a character with blue hair when their hair is drawn purple just because they normally have blue hair. If we really wanted to we could tag them with both 1girl and otoko no ko, so people who absolutely hate the idea of seeing "males" (even if they'd have no way to tell) can still blacklist them.

As for transgender, I think the tag is fairly poorly named for what it is intended to be used for. If people see a tag named transgender they are going to apply it to transgender characters without really caring what it's intended to be used for. Remember, the average Danbooru user isn't reading any wiki pages. I would be fine with renaming it to something more descriptive and repurposing the transgender tag to be used as a canonical tag. We already canon tag otoko no ko and virtual youtuber (among others), so one more won't be the end of Danbooru. It'll have to be pretty strictly only for canonically trans characters though, so we don't end up with it being flooded with irrelevant content like random pictures of femboys.

tl;dr we should really just be doing TWYS. Not tagging completely female-looking characters as female just because some people get their rocks off to the knowledge there might be a dick is kinda ridiculous.

Tamarinne said:

If the issue is solely about visual tags at all, why bother using genders at all? Why not just stick to tagging the number of penises or vaginas in an image?

Three-quarters of this site is SFW. If we're only tagging pussies and penises then you will not be able to search for a huge amount of content on this site. This might not matter to the average coomer but it's a pretty horrible idea.

mongirlfan said:

You guys might be forgetting or are newer to Danbooru, but the transgender tag already worked in the past as a canon-tag designed for "characters that doesn't identify themselves with their biological gender".

To be objective for someone who wants to search for a transgender character, and at the same time, to work with the "Tag what you see" principle, the tag worked this way: the trans character is tagged as 1girl/1boy according to their biological gender and of course gets tagged with transgender. That way you won't encounter something like post #3986394 while searching for 1girl.

But it quickly became a mess as per topic #17489 (where the transgender tag was originally discussed and created), and the general agreement was that it's better for the tag to be designed for posts about transgenderism instead of being a canon tag for characters that are said to be transgenders.

["Ladiva is not canonically a girl" count rises by 1]

Reading that thread now, a lot of the complaints about it being "a mess" are extremely vague. It seems like we were kicking the can down the road due to the usual issue of not being able to decide policy - or were there specific usability issues going on?