Posted under General
Really, its just the comments and low-quality posts from contributors that bug me. People should be able to use danbooru for their porn and linkability or whatever, they're invisible.
The posts that come and are really terrible quality are actually kind of entertaining and not a threat. But the comments.... those are visible and annoying.
Therefore, the only thing that needs to be changed is the policing of the comments.
葉月 said:
First, what problem exactly do we have? It's that danbooru is perceived as, and people behave accordingly, porn site.
To me, the problem isn't just that people use us as a hentai site; it's that these people have so much more influence on the site than the rest of us. They vote up everything with giant tits, causing the popular pages to be filled with way too much hentai that's mediocre at best. They fill the comments pages with idiotic "OMFG tsunades such a fuckin slut" chatter. Their collective efforts mean that completely unremarkable hentai gets tons of undeserved attention while good posts go unnoticed.
I don't mind if these people can passively view the site; I just don't want their votes and comments to have influence over which posts get noticed. That's why I'm in favor of solution #2. The fappers could still be able to browse the site, but their voting and commenting privileges should be as limited as possible. That would remove a lot of their power in the community.
Here are a few simple things that could be done right now:
This isn't the drastic change you're looking for, but it's a start and it would be easy to implement. These changes also have the advantage of affecting the bad users already here. One of the major drawbacks of a no-porn-probation-period is that it doesn't do anything at all to all the bad users already registered here.
evazion said:
One of the major drawbacks of a no-porn-probation-period is that it doesn't do anything at all to all the bad users already registered here.
It does a lot. It removes the linkability, meaning you can no longer just pass around danbooru URLs. It matters more than you think.
I dislike the measures you proposed. I want my favs to count as an extra vote. Public banning is bad, since it puts emphasis on the moderation itself and not its goal, which is a pleasurable environment. This would destroy danbooru-the-community and turn it into a mod dictatorship. Oh, and nothing you give is particularly simpler to implement than what I proposed, none of my changes introduce anything that isn't a variation on things the code does already.
Hazuki, and I'm saying that you've yet to convince me that hiding explicit posts for N weeks is going to produce the effect you want. Most of my criticisms remain uncountered. It seems like the only surefire way to achieve your goal is to ban explicit content entirely. Then you completely remove the incentive for porn hunters to visit this site.
葉月 said:
They're amusing to you because you don't moderate that crap. Also, stop being dumb and fucking read what I explained in great detail, then maybe you'd get a clue why "just policing the comments" isn't going to work. That or STFU.
Be civil. This is a serious discussion. Don't tell other people to STFU.
葉月 said:
Something.
I don't think we are missing the point here. I think we are just trying to board the same problem from different angles.
Some ideas mean prevention, some others go for purge and so.
I know what your saying and you are right. However, is also true that danbooru is a NSFW site (I'm not saying porn site). IMO almost all the ideas suggested here, are good one way or another, meaning that we need an integral solution, and not just a simple join-and-wait-for-it.
There's a need for more blocks and bans. We need to follow new members behavior in order to know what they after. We need from time to time watch over contributors to prevent abuse of power.
We need to reduce post slots for normal members and even privileged members, to slow down the incoming of crap.
We need tutorials, so members that really want to do things right know How to.
We may also need a moderation in the creation of new tags.
We need an update of the TOS.
And there lots of stuff that can still be done. This way fappers maybe won't disappear, but at least we'll have more control over them.
I think it's just a manner of "where do we start?", and sometimes the answer is "with what's easier".
albert said:
Be civil. This is a serious discussion. Don't tell other people to STFU.
I'm not telling other people to STFU. I'm telling Granola to STFU or start reading what's being written. Here and in the ToS discussion he's been repeatedly ignoring explanations and repeating the same thing again and again. This completely sidetracks the discussion.
albert said:
Hazuki, and I'm saying that you've yet to convince me that hiding explicit posts for N weeks is going to produce the effect you want. Most of my criticisms remain uncountered.
Could you restate it or point me to where exactly you stated it previously? I'm unsure what criticism you have in mind now.
It seems like the only surefire way to achieve your goal is to ban explicit content entirely. Then you completely remove the incentive for porn hunters to visit this site.
Sure, but that would blast away a huge portion of the site, a lot of it being perfectly fine art and not really porn. What I'm trying to achieve is to target two areas of a good porn site:
The latter is more important than it looks, it's crucial that it be shareable, otherwise no-one will link to it and it won't be known or popular. The idea is to make us boring and a bother enough not to be worth the hassle, without actually killing off rating:e.
EDIT: a small example of what I mean: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=danbooru
Reposted with some additional comments:
- There will always be people willing to wait N weeks to start dumping their crap. The only people you're really deterring are the stop and go visitors. And really, what percentage of these actually sign up and start uploading?
- There's no guarantee that just because someone lurks for N weeks that they'll suddenly understand what constitutes good art.
- There are people who are only interested in explicit art but can also differentiate between bad and good art. Hiding explicit posts would just be driving this group away. Likewise, there are people who have no interest in explicit art, but still have horrible taste. Your change does nothing against this group.
I feel like your proposal, at best, reduce your workload by a constant factor, and ultimately you'd get the same effect by just reducing the cap to 2 posts a day.
葉月 said:
I want my favs to count as an extra vote.
Then let the favs of privileged members count as an extra vote. The point is, the reason things like post #429949 and post #429864 fill the popular pages is because of members like http://danbooru.donmai.us/user/show/14990 or http://danbooru.donmai.us/user/show/25455 or http://danbooru.donmai.us/user/show/18772 or http://danbooru.donmai.us/user/show/38492. These people favorite every other hentai post they see, causing scores of hentai to be heavily inflated.
albert said:
Reposted with some additional comments:- There will always be people willing to wait N weeks to start dumping their crap. The only people you're really deterring are the stop and go visitors. And really, what percentage of these actually sign up and start uploading?
Sure there are. But if you multiply the percentages of people who are 1) willing to wait N weeks 2) aren't scared by the decidedly anti-porn turn things took 3) don't mind the lack of audience or ability to link, together you get a minuscule fraction of the current bad porn uploaders.
- There's no guarantee that just because someone lurks for N weeks that they'll suddenly understand what constitutes good art.
That was never in the plan. It's some cross-talk from other proposals you got. I'm absolutely not interested in ever trying to teach people common sense or taste; as I said above, lipstick on a pig.
- There are people who are only interested in explicit art but can also differentiate between bad and good art. Hiding explicit posts would just be driving this group away.
Yes, unfortunately.
Likewise, there are people who have no interest in explicit art, but still have horrible taste. Your change does nothing against this group.
It doesn't. However, it's the question of proportions. We get disproportionately many bad uploads from porn-seekers, and we get disproportionately much drama. I never claimed my solution was perfect, I'm not that stupid. It's a matter of being good enough and fair enough. Last I checked, even God had to do some extensive moderation and even rebooted his site once after it's been running for a while, so we're in a good company. Seriously though, it's as good as I can get it; you're more than welcome to tweak it, but whatever we do, there will always be some collateral damage. We can only try to keep it down to minimum and in areas that hurt the least.
I feel like your proposal, at best, reduce your workload by a constant factor, and ultimately you'd get the same effect by just reducing the cap to 2 posts a day.
Nope. It'd be infinitely better even if we get the same numbers, because it means we avoided restricting good new members down to two posts a day. Such a cap would be unbelievably crippling. We'd have to cap all of comments/uploads/notes/tag edits at 2/day to truly avoid all damage, and by doing that, completely shut danbooru off for new people. That'd suck. Please don't.
If I can get my workload down to 25%, I'm more than willing to spend the 75% I spared on hand-holding people who show promise. I have infinite amounts of patience for people who I believe show promise (OTOH, the short fuse you know is for the ones who don't). But it was never really about getting the workload down. Rather, it's about getting danbooru itself smaller, slower and more focused at the expense of bad posters, without *raising* the workload. I can't invest any more, but I will try to keep what I already invest up.
Updated
葉月 said:
Nope. It'd be infinitely better even if we get the same numbers, because it means we avoided restricting good new members down to two posts a day. Such a cap would be unbelievably crippling. We'd have to cap all of comments/uploads/notes/tag edits at 2/day to truly avoid all damage, and by doing that, completely shut danbooru off for new people. That'd sucks. Please don't.
What about the system スラッシュ and I mentioned on the previous page, with slots taken up by pending images and a cap that grows and shrinks within bounds?
evazion said:
These people favorite every other hentai post they see, causing scores of hentai to be heavily inflated.
fav:scrt - 984 pages. fav:scrt -rating:e - 708 pages. fav:Chemixer - 524 pages, fav:Chemixer -rating:e - 397 pages. Both around 25% of the total count. You can't accurately pick examples by hand, and you're a thinking human. How can you expect a sweeping generalisation like "let's not count X's votes" be any more fair or accurate?
My proposal adds what I believe to be the least crippling (and reversible) restriction, whilst being targetted specifically against something a group we have identified to be particularly problematic values, and not against other people. No other measure besides スラッシュ's has been proposed which wouldn't hit good users at least as hard as bad ones. I will continue to oppose plans that add more permanent restrictions on member accounts, because that would stratify us into those who are privileged already, and those who never will be. I didn't start out as a mod, I became one because someone deemed me valuable enough to make me one. That path towards earning peer respect needs to stay open, or else we choke.
RaisingK said:
What about the system スラッシュ and I mentioned on the previous page, with slots taken up by pending images and a cap that grows and shrinks within bounds?
Yes, I have supported it previously. No need for growing and shrinking though, it's an unnecessary complication in a system that's self-adjusting already.
葉月 said:
I'm not telling other people to STFU. I'm telling Granola to STFU or start reading what's being written. Here and in the ToS discussion he's been repeatedly ignoring explanations and repeating the same thing again and again. This completely sidetracks the discussion.
Not really, but whatever.
Sorry about that homeless_homo. I'm guessing that the only okay places to upload from are pivx, select deviantart accounts, random gem finds, and jap artists webpages? So basically you have to be be able to read Japanese to be a quality uploader?
I apologize in advance if this has been explained extensively somewhere else, but this is what I've picked up so far.
葉月 said:
fav:scrt - 984 pages. fav:scrt -rating:e - 708 pages. fav:Chemixer - 524 pages, fav:Chemixer -rating:e - 397 pages. Both around 25% of the total count.
Why aren't you including rating:q? Hentai isn't just rating:e, it includes a lot of rating:q. Even some rating:s stuff is sexual in nature. I mean, look at post #430705. That post isn't at the top of Safebooru's March 30th popular page because it's the best piece of worksafe art uploaded all day, it's there because it has the biggest titties.
This is another issue with your proposal; unless you block the rating:questionable content too I don't think it'll deter many people, they'll just fap to rating:q titties while they wait until they can fap to rating:e content. I don't know if you're willing to go that far (I think you've only mentioned 'explicit content' so far so I assume you've just been talking about blocking rating:e), but I don't want to.
葉月 said:
You can't accurately pick examples by hand, and you're a thinking human.
I'm on a dial-up connection right now, so I don't have the bandwidth to look through many examples. Those were the first few users I looked at, so no, they're probably not the best examples. Still, I think you know about the kind of user I'm trying to point out. They're the people who you see on the "Favorited by:" list on every generic H-CG that comes along. They have 15000 favorites, no uploads, no tag edits, and no comments. They're not doing anything wrong per se, but there are just so many of them and they upvote so much that collectively they have much more influence over scores (and consequently, what's popular) than those of us who are very selective in our favorites/upvotes.
And even if you change the site so only quality users sign up we'll still have all the undesirable users who are already here. They'll keep on inflating the scores of mediocre hentai, causing people to upload more of it because that's what gets the highest scores. People will keep trying to justify bad uploads by saying it got a high score, so it must be good. We can't kick these users out since all they're doing is voting/favoriting, but we can limit the number of upvotes users have so that people who upvote indiscriminately don't have way more influence than people who upvote selectively.
EDIT: Holy fuck I apologize for the wall of text, I didn't realize I typed this much.
Swashy said:
Sorry about that homeless_homo. I'm guessing that the only okay places to upload from are pivx, select deviantart accounts, random gem finds, and jap artists webpages? So basically you have to be be able to read Japanese to be a quality uploader?I apologize in advance if this has been explained extensively somewhere else, but this is what I've picked up so far.
If it's already on fakku, why the hell do you need to reupload it here? If you want people to read the translated version, post the fakku link on the original parent post to let users know.
Here are some hard numbers: http://pastie.org/432622
In the best cases about 30% of the posts are uploaded by people who joined on the same month. Usually it's more like 20%. And even if we prohibited them from uploading for four weeks some non-zero percentage of them would just upload their crap in their second month.
