Explicit content vs. member accounts vs. we're not a porn site

0xCCBA696 said:
Make danbooru read-only for a short time for newly registered users, and hide explicit posts for unregistered users. By "read-only", I mean that new users shouldn't be allowed to post, comment, edit tags, add translations, make pools, vote, favorite, or generally do anything other than browse (i.e. what an unregistered user can currently already do). Make this period SHORT, though, otherwise people will just get bored and leave. During this period, any attempt to do anything should result in a "LURK MOAR" message and a link to the rules/tutorial. Hiding explicit posts to unregistered users encourages the interested to register, and deters the mindset that this is "just a porn site", though this SHOULD be spelled out in the "rules" page I am proposing. No need to mention this restriction anywhere, as I'm sure word will spread anyway.

Actually, this here sounds pretty good, the "read only" idea with error messages and rule links. Obviously a more professional sounding error message would be nice, but other than small tweaks like that it all sounded good to me.

0xCCBA696 said:
The only problem I can see here is the time factor. We would need to determine what exactly a "SHORT" trial period for new users would be. A lot of sites have a 24-hour or 72-hour trial period. The only problem is that some people might register and then not actually log in until the next week, or something.

If that is an issue, instead of a time factor, consider a usage factor, like requiring new users to chalk up a minimum number of post views or such.

r0d3n7z, I considered that, but that would be easy to abuse - just refresh an image a lot, or open a ton of images for no reason, etc. Same for counting by "number of 'LURK MOAR' messages seen" - someone could just spam comment attempts. But hopefully the kind of people who would be dumb enough to do that would probably also be the kind of people who would have no interest in doing that (the just-sit-and-stare type of user). Who knows.

Honestly, there's always going to be some way for someone dumb enough and determined enough to get around whatever measures we think up.

Most abuse-proof thing I can think of is to require that it be *unique* posts viewed, and put a rate limit on post views for new accounts. For example, a 500 images requirement coupled with a 15-second rate limit equates a bare minimum of roughly two solid hours of site usage. Problem with this is that counting that many unique post views could be rather inefficient to implement -- and dropping the unique requirement allows it to be circumvented using browser auto-refresh on a single image.

Though I must say - this time/usage metering issue aside, those are good ideas. +1.

r0d3n7z said:
requiring new users to chalk up a minimum number of post views or such.

Abusable no matter how you go about it and annoying to implement.

0xCCBA696 said:
Stuff

Love suggestion #1. #2 is good, and the 24/72 hour thing sounds alright. Like you said, it's far from perfect, but it's a non-intrusive method that may at least help filter crap users to a certain extent.

Some good way to prevent 'register-closeDB-waitoneweek-login-profit' or 'multiple-image-viewing-abuse' if a counter is implemented, is to make something like GameFAQs karma system on their forums. For the ones who don't know:

Like DB, GameFAQs need to fight against people who just go there to get cheats and other things instead of good discussion, writing and other various things. So, to prevent exactly what we're trying to prevent here, they made up a system that works like this:

You start with Karma 0(a visible stat on your profile and everyone else), and gain 1 karma every midnight, as long as you have made a comment (which was not reported and deleted), wrote a FAQ, created a discussion topic which received some replies, among other things you can do there (but not simply browsing).

My suggestion would be to make something similar here, but hidden. It could be an automated process (if karma > x, go ahead), and could be put under the rules pages as "an automated process will consider your interest in our community, and will grant you automatic access when it has decided you're interested. No Janitors/Mods are involved on the process".

So, if implemented, a minimum karma value of 7 would make it so a new member must come back at least 6 days and view/comment/upload (whatever you guys let the new member do). The stupid people would probably think it is a matter of time, so after a week or month would come back and see nothing has changed, or open a lot of images in the hope that it is counter-based, and probably would drop out before achieving 7 karma. Of course, like everything else, this might leak, and determined people might remember to come back everyday and get his karma, but random guys looking for a 'quick fap' would probably not remember about DB and soon forget it.

Sorry for the long text, just giving some advice ^^

evazion said:
Except the money albert gets from advertising and account upgrades.

Which'd be countered by a *sharp* decline in bandwidth usage, reducing the costs.

abcadeff said:
On the other hand, not everyone who just comes to Danbooru occasionally for a quick fap is an idiot like this, and 99% of them aren't even causing any problem, as far as I can see. Other than shitty posts and occasional bits of retarded drama in the comments, what IS the problem this thread was meant to address?

The problem IS shitty posts and drama. For two reasons, explained below.

And those problems (which are going to persist anyway, even if all of these people were gone) can be taken care of just like I said before: by janitors and mods not approving stuff they don't like, and maybe handing out blocks for people who consistently upload crap (the ones who don't get the hint after 20 of their first 30 posts aren't approved...)

See, you don't see the mod queue, or don't mod the site, so you're probably not seeing the full extent of this. Let me establish this as a common notion then: MODERATING DANBOORU IS A METRIC SHITLOAD OF WORK. You have no idea how much time it burns. One recent example:

I screen all new posts to perform some basic surgery on a small set of tags I care about, as well as fix obvious misratings. Danbooru moves at about 35-40 pages of new posts on an average day. Recently I didn't have the time to review for 5+ days, so when I came back, I had a huge backlog. I do reviewing by starting with the first page of post listing and moving backwards until I hit pages I have already reviewed. By the time I finished, I was already 1.5 days behind the front page, and got up to page 300 or so of the listing. Let me sum up the numbers: I spent full 1.5 days, doing very little else than just catching up with danbooru, reviewed about 260 pages of posts (that's some 5400 uploads), scored above 10% of the total tag edit count. Then you have to add sending mails to new, confused and misbehaving users, banning and handing out records, resolving disputes and handling questions, plus reading the forum. Danbooru could easily be a full-time job, and I have to support myself and finish my studies.

For the above reason, ANYTHING that adds more work is unacceptable. And your solution adds more work for mods, whilst failing to send the message to new people. That's reason one.

Reason two is that I'm absolutely not interested in danbooru as a public repository of porn. I'm also not interested in a 4chan-style stockpile of internet idiocy. I'm interested in danbooru being a hub for a community of smart, dedicated people centered around collecting and cataloguing high-quality JP-related art. For this reason, just having idiots who don't care is a problem, because it dilutes the valuable people. And having a high concentration of smart people dedicated to something leads to good things that don't occur otherwise, therefore it's imperative for me to protect that resource.

Furthermore, I want a community that's as welcoming to new valuable members as possible, whilst deterring the undesirable ones. Thus any measures we set up for this purpose should target the characteristics likely amongst people we want to attract and unlikely amongst the ones we want to scare off (and vice-versa). I would like it to be publically accessible with no restrictions, but that is not a workable long-term solution. What was self-regulating in 2005, when danbooru was a small site no-one knew about, now requires systematic measures and continuous maintenance. I have nothing against people who "come here occasionally for a quick fap", but that's not the same as people who treat danbooru as their private, 24/7 porn reservoir.

Bottom line: I want a solution that sends a strong message about what danbooru is and isn't. Telling you up-front that you won't be able to access porn for X days, in big bold letters, is such a message. It should convey the idea of "we're not a porn people" clearly, whilst inconveniencing people who come here to contribute only mildly. The precise value of X can be tweaked, as can be other implementation details, but anything you propose should retain the core of screaming BOOOOOORING to the porn-fappers before they bother going any further. Of course they can sit it out if they're determined enough, but that's not the point. The point is to make them feel unwelcome from the beginning.

anarki said:
So, if implemented, a minimum karma value of 7 would make it so a new member must come back at least 6 days and view/comment/upload (whatever you guys let the new member do).

I appreciate the idea, but I don't think it's workable. The reason is that it equates "anything you say" with "contribution", and contrary to what you say, the system is not automatic and very much includes mods and janitors, because we're the only one to remove the unwanted contributions and prevent them from counting as positive ones. It'd have an effect of both making danbooru move faster and overwhelming us with more work than we can ever hope to handle, thus destroying the system and making it actually be a "whatever you say counts as +1" one. We don't want automated karma, we want actual peer recognition and a closely-knit community, as much as it's possible to have on a site so big.

I'd like to note that making danbooru move faster is an anti-goal, at least for me. We have almost 65000 user accounts. The comments page moves far too fast to sustain any sensible discussion already. New uploads volume is at 800 or more posts per day. Anything that increases those numbers further doesn't add value, it takes it away instead.

Where we stand, elitism (albeit one accepting new valuable members) is actually desirable. I'm focused on making danbooru an exceptional resource, and anything exceptional is, by definition, elitist. I don't want things that increase volume, I want things that increase the average quality per item.

Just like 'x days' can be tweaked, what would or would not grant karma could be tweaked as well. That's up for you to decide. If a new member can comment and upload, karma could be granted for uploading (and having the image accepted). To unrule getting karma for explicit images or consider if his contribution would be sufficient for one karma, a simple combobox (here i'm guessing at how the system works) of "grants karma" when accepting an uploaded image could work.

I didn't suggest this set-up thinking of granting karma from commentary, I agree it would be useless if people knew about it, but adding this feature when accepting uploads, altough it might take some code (depending on how your structure works), could be a viable solution.

Something like this (and of course you don't need to take this solution by the letter) would make sure that a new member _must_ contribute to take part in this, while letting those who don't stay outside. It seems to fit your needs, altough this set-up (or anything else, for the matter), can determine wheter this new member is just making an effort for the porn or not. If he is, then he at least helped to make the site richer. A fair trade.

I just realized something. If we remove the ability for anonymous users to see explicit images, we're going to get an influx of users that are the exact OPPOSITE of what we're trying to get. It may send a message that danbooru isn't a porn site, however these people will join just to get that content. Then you have a large number of people that couldn't post idiotic comments/images that now suddenly can, and you can assume at least some will.

This is likely going to increase the mod's workload, while not really attracting the type of new user we want.

I actually started laughing when I considered the idea of banning explicit posts for member accounts but letting anonymous visitors see them, so that people who come for porn wont create an account in the first place and will never upload shit or make stupid comments.

looking good. I've seen some nice ideas along the way.
I was thinking in a test for new memberships, something similar to those made for new janitors. The idea works like this:

A selection of images is done in secret by mods, admins, and maybe some janitors. lets say that 500 pics are picked, both danbooru related/non-danbooru related and SFW/NSFW.
Each image is assigned a value of relevance and quality for danbooru purposes.
Now, in order to get a new membership you'll need to read and accept the TOS and pass a test.
The test is made with 20 or 10 random pics from those selected previously.
The new-member-prospectus will have to mark those images that -from his/her perspective- are better for danbooru.
Then, with the hidden values assigned at the beggining, we might determine if that person is looking for quality or is looking for fap material only.
If the person fails the test, there is no membership granted, and he or she will have to try the test again with a new group of random pics.

On the other side, anonymous users wont be able to post, tag, comment and see rating:e posts.
Normal members will have a less ammount of upload tickets, and comment tickets per day, maybe half. Until they pay for a privileged account or get promoted to one.
A blocked member wont have any other option but to Lurk Moar.

And finally, we need to purge or restrain those idiots that already are inside danbooru.

What about a private repository for porn? Photonlancer isn't a new user throwing his futa left and right, he has over a thousand uploads. What if old members and privileged accounts want to upload their fetish for their fellow fans to enjoy, but are constantly being shut down and deleted by the other half that despises that particular fetish?

It seems to me there is always going to be a war between futa lovers and haters, so how do we stop that drama storm from being thrown around?

Swashy said:
What about a private repository for porn?

How about you stop uploading hentai manga straight from fakku? You're one of the damn reasons why people are forced to take measures like this in the first place.

You make rules similar to the ones in place.

Extreme, disgusting ass futa falls under the grotesque category, just like extreme mutilation. Contributors know (or should) what is acceptable for the site and what is acceptable only for their private storage.

That's just an issue of forcing people to accept their shit just because the site is "public" (its not.)

Swashy said:
What if old members and privileged accounts want to upload their fetish for their fellow fans to enjoy, but are constantly being shut down and deleted by the other half that despises that particular fetish?

It seems to me there is always going to be a war between futa lovers and haters, so how do we stop that drama storm from being thrown around?

If you want to get material of your personal fetish and share it with your fellow fans, go to 4chan and start a thread.
The point here it's to let clear what danbooru is for, and what we are trying to achieve. Danbooru is not a porn site. If people don't like the idea or think that it's all a semantics matter, well... the internet is quite large, I'm sure they'll find a place to be their fetish paradise, and where their /b/tard soul can be free.

I just feel like hiding explicit posts is the wrong solution to a legitimate problem. Why I think this:

- There will always be people willing to wait N weeks to start dumping their crap. The only people you're really deterring are the stop and go visitors.
- People just don't read. Some don't even speak English. And trying to explain the minimum quality standard in words is hard.
- There's no guarantee that just because someone lurks for N weeks that they'll suddenly understand what constitutes good art.
- There are people who are only interested in explicit art but can also differentiate between bad and good art. Hiding explicit posts would just be driving this group away.

While hiding explicit posts would undoubtedly produce some effect, I'm not sure if it's worth such a massive change.

I think a better solution is to restrict uploads, instead of trying to control the community. Other ideas I'm more amenable to:

- Severely capping post uploads/comments for basic members, but increase the limit as more of their posts get approved. This is dependent on the mods/janitors being diligent, however.
- Members must complete a quiz to get upload privileges. Something similar to the janitor quiz. Not sure what the ramifications of this would be...
- Combination?

Quiz wouldn't do anything because people would just answer it and then upload their garbage. They will later justify the garbage, and the only penalty they'll get is the disgust of other members.

Capping uploads wouldn't do much, it just takes one shit quality picture to tell if someone is stupid. Blasting all 16 in one day is easy to do.

Restricting comment would also not help very much because it would reduce valuable input from certain members and it doesn't stop 1000+ people from saying stupid crap anyway. Now if you could make bumping 2+ year old posts to say "I agree" punishable, that would be nice.

The solution I can think of is much more frequent distribution of blocks, but for shorter periods of time. I think many people will start to get the message if you block them for a few days for each stupid offense that they do. Recent offenders would be punished more severely and strictly than others.

It seems we have two somewhat conflicting goals that need to be made to jive together. We want a thoughtful intelligent community that's welcoming to newbies. We want to restrict the common rabble and discourage them from coming back.

I think I originally joined to comment on something, so restricting them to no commenting immediately from the start might prove counter to the goal, but a sharp limit might not be bad. And why not impose a minimum length restriction on comments too, so no one can just write "lol" and hit the button? I sort of like the idea of giving them a "half-life" too, so they can't resurrect things from a few-thousand pages back.

I think not showing things for a short period (24-36 hours) would at least dissuade the casual surfer looking to beat it. We've established that no amount of time will trump the patient masturbator, and I feel like if it's too long it becomes a hazing of sorts. Like, "Oh, you're not a real member yet...." That's sort of uncool, and not welcoming at all.

I'd be against a public "karma" rating that everyone can see because it immediately gives people a numeric representation of a member's "worth" and creates a segregation. "Oh, her karma is higher. I guess she's better than him, so he's not important." Slashdot just shows positive, neautral, and negative for karma these days, so maybe that would be an alternative?

In any case, a page that tells you in short and long forms what you did when you get blocked might be useful for helping newbies grow. Like searching for loli without the privs would return a blurb with "You don't have the privileges for viewing loli!" in large bold text, with the detailed rationale below it, so those who care and have potential to become worthwhile members of the community can read without having to come to the forum to do so.

Something that involved tagging images would be almost ideal, but for the fact that they could (easily) abuse it by tagging things wrong. They'd still get banned, but the mods are already under a lot of stress, I gather, and adding to that is just sort of cruel without any clear benefit.

A tutorial that you're forced to view when you register would be sort of neat for the people that care. Make it annoying to get past and it might serve as a decent casual deterrent.

This is kind of a side comment but why not make it so posts X months old just don't get bumped by default?