Question: Uploading with minimal tags.

MyrMindservant said:
IMO, this is a good idea. Maybe except "including the uploader" part, it's rather convenient to be able to see what you personally have uploaded before.
At least removing "by user xxxxxxxx" and "user:xxxxxx" things from the interface, for everyone below Mods perhaps, would already help somewhat.

I added that mainly because it would still continue as long as it's there. This whole thing has been suggested before, and it more or less came down to "there is more things that actually need fixing".

Alternatively, we could make the uploader status dynamic, so that if someone has uploaded already present image with twice as many general tags it had before, he would be credited instead of the first user.

This was suggested before too, although yes people could always tag with dummy tags, it's very easy to point out such users that do such a thing.

HNTI said:

• facepalm *

Sorry, it just made me laugh a bit. It sounds like you feel sorry for your bot, because it won't get a post or two -_-.

The entire idea of this bot is to make it so it won't happen in the first place, having it check 24h later is completely useless in this regard.

Today, quite wacky idea came to my mind, what if somebody else try to compete with your bot and make its own bot and Danbooru will be just a playground for them, huh?

Right, because that really wouldn't just be making a bot for the sake of "first". "Oh there is another bot running, so I'll make a bot to make sure I get first".
If I gave a damn about such a thing, I wouldn't even need a bot.

Shinjidude said:
The problem is that removing the uploader's credit does the same thing that the auto-upload script does in taking away the competition, the prestige, and the ego boost that comes from being most successful at uploading images. It would make the same people just as angry, and by what they are saying, drive a large number of otherwise active members away from the site.

True, but having it also does the exact same thing. Another idea would be to simply be able to set a post manually to "Uploaded by Anonymous" or something similar if it is minimally uploaded. Could be limited to mod+ and posts where it happened could be found with the same list that was suggested earlier. It would deter people from doing it if they knew it would happen. Not exactly something hard to implement either.

If there is a problem, and we did want to change it without driving users off, we'd have to somehow make sure people who violate policy get punished and people who go out of their way to find good content from less easily parsed and discovered sources get rewarded. Both are difficult to do automatically, and automatic is the only way that would really work with a userbase as large as ours.

Difficult but possible. Could probably find most good users by doing an search on an external copy of the danbooru DB for anything the user has uploaded that isn't from an "easy" site, then filter by artist to see if they were the first one to upload from there.
Could be a bit confusing to actually do though.

Moreover, any reward would have to be greater than the perceived reward of being first, which we don't have many means to provide. An account upgrade can only be done with very good posters, and is a one-time thing. A positive record is more or less a pat on the head, and also can't be given out continuously.

True, this is a job without reward. Everyone uploads for their own reasons. Although a reward system would help in some cases, it would probably cause more problems like the problems we already have. Not exactly a good thing.
There is better things that need implemented anyway.

HNTI said:
And how do you imagine user interface, without its history of uploads, to get a promotion ?

I did say "below mod", meaning the only people who should need to actually see this kind of thing can see it. It wouldn't be hard to make a few extra tools to help point out users who should and shouldn't be promoted either. It isn't like people need to see who uploads an image anyway.

Can't you just make a bot that checks pixiv sources of uploaded images and imports the tags automatically?

DakuTree said :
The entire idea of this bot is to make it so it won't happen in the first place, having it check 24h later is completely useless in this regard.

I don't see your point here. My idea is to use that bot as support, not the primary source of images.

DakuTree said :
Right, because that really wouldn't just be making a bot for the sake of "first". "Oh there is another bot running, so I'll make a bot to make sure I get first".
If I gave a damn about such a thing, I wouldn't even need a bot.

But by using your bot (now we official know you use/used one) you encourage others to make their own as it wasn't prohibited by admins. Also, you forget that the bot did the work, but you reaped its profits in embodiment of at lest 2-4 positive records for uploads. Agreed that you also had your part in tagging, but let's face it : your number of uploads if way higher than other uploaders.

HNTI said:
Also, you forget that the bot did the work, but you reaped its profits in embodiment of at lest 2-4 positive records for uploads. Agreed that you also had your part in tagging, but let's face it : your number of uploads if way higher than other uploaders.

Have you not read anything I have even said regarding this?
I haven't run the bot at all before yesterday (besides testing on a virtualboxed danbooru), and even now it's on hold. If I did, you would very well see it considering it doesn't tag anywhere near as much.

Fun fact. I have a huge amount of free time, to the case where I can essentially multi-task pixiv and similar sites 18 hours a day. It really isn't that difficult. Hell, there is even browser addons that make the whole thing a lot easier.
Of course I'm going to upload more as a result. And yet again I ask, since when did post counts matter?

I personally think that positive records matter more than having your name next to a picture, because they are a sign that your efforts are acknowledged. Maybe I am just an odd case then...

I think this matter would be more effectively solved by encouraging the users to actively look for overlooked/hard to find pictures (even a no-effect user level can do wonders, it's just like achievements in gaming) rather than driving them away from easy sources. These hard to find pictures also have the merit to be, well, hard to find, so you usually have all the time in the world for tagging them thoroughly before uploading them.

As for the 'me first' problem, concerning below-contributor level members, maybe a mental 'scare' might work? Like intentionally letting the popular pictures unapproved for 2-3 days in order to stir doubt in the user? And could flagging posts for bad tagging work?

DakuTree said:
since when did post counts matter?

Since it was used as a basis for rewards like positive records and account upgrades. So basically, ever since danbooru was created.

Deelles said:
And could flagging posts for bad tagging work?

Deleting the post in response to the poster's tagging ethic is impractical.

I can essentially multi-task pixiv and similar sites 18 hours a day.

Then multitask everywhere outside pixiv and other "popular"/"easy" sources. The easiest solution is obviously out of your grasp of thought.
Or you could also try getting a life, which most of uploaders does have, but that's another story.

Shinjidude said:
The problem is that removing the uploader's credit does the same thing that the auto-upload script does in taking away the competition, the prestige, and the ego boost that comes from being most successful at uploading images. It would make the same people just as angry, and by what they are saying, drive a large number of otherwise active members away from the site.

That is exactly what I'm proposing: let's get rid of the whole "competition" thing and by this remove the root of all problems it creates.

If it makes some people angry then so be it, I don't see why we should care about their ego and e-penis. If someone who only cares about boosting his ego leaves the site, we should just say "good riddance" and move along. You said yourself that this is not something we should condone.
We don't even lose anything if they leave, there are already people frustrated and discouraged by the "first" competition so we would also gain more uploaders that bother to properly tag their posts.
And people who actually want to contribute to the site and make this place better won't leave because of this.

HNTI said:
And how do you imagine user interface, without its history of uploads, to get a promotion ?

I was only talking about "by user xxxxxxxx" at a post's page and "user:xxxxxx" in the thumbnail mouseover tooltip. But we could also make upload history at the user's page only visible to the uploader itself and Mod+ users. Both me and DakuTree said that it should still be visible to those who actually can promote users.

I understand that there are other important things to add/fix and that some aspects may be difficult to implement, but this is still something worthy to be considered.

Why are some of you so intent on making Danbooru worse by removing useful features? What would change if you couldn't see the name of the uploader?

pros:

• people who don't get "first" won't be as butthurt

cons:

• removes incentive to upload art
• inability to contact the uploader
• inability to track uploads and tag updates
• no way to find good/bad uploders/taggers
• you can not gauge a post's tag quality by looking at the uploader's name
• generally hurts the community

And DakuTree, you're making the huge assumption that your bot can tag better than the average pixiv stalker...
It can't.

Just use your bot for these cases:
Upload art which has been missed.
Tag undertagged posts that are already uploaded. Or rather, tag them manually with the bot giving suggestions. I don't trust your bot to tag things right other than copyrights and characters.
Use your 18 hours a day to tag garden or look through those "not so easy" sources yourself instead of "wasting your effort" to upload stuff that 100 other people would do anyway.

S1eth said:
And DakuTree, you're making the huge assumption that your bot can tag better than the average pixiv stalker...
It can't.

I don't think he's worried so much about tagging as getting his name on the posts. Kindof ironic given the entire foundation of his stance on this "issue." It clearly bothered him enough to go to such great lengths.

This is getting circular to the point I almost think I ought to lock the thread.

From what I'm hearing now we've got:

One camp including DakuTree saying the "first" crowd is annoying, unneccessary, potentially harmful and must be stopped at all means whether it be running the bot to starve them out, or otherwise removing all incentive to being "first". DakuTree did boost his post count but he seems entirely concerned with changing others' behavior rather than boosting his own profile. The site modification proposals serve the exact same end as the bot, but with more effort.

The other camp including the "first" crowd, saying "we're here because we like to be able to compete in the "first" game. How dare you beat us at it with an automated process, you greedy bastard are stealing all the glory! This angers us to the point that we might leave, and we form a large number of established members (which would make forcing us out a bad thing). Any attempt that has the same result of denying the "first" game will anger this group in the same way.

These groups are incompatible, any solution that appeases the one will offend the other. Moreover it seems they can't even understand each others' motivations. If the bot is meant to starve out all users so that they stop caring about their post counts, the post count it generates is meaningless. If the bot angers users such that they will leave since they can no longer get credit for Pixiv uploads, then taking the more difficult task of modifying the site and denying users useful ancillary features will do the exact same thing and force those users out.

From the sounds of it all, no one is willing to compromise.

@Shinjidude: So basically you want to leave things as they're right now ?

That's an option too. I don't think that many people besides DakuTree find the current situation especially troublesome, and certainly nobody got so worked up to actually suggest such extreme measures before.

Good luck with such attitude, good luck.

Shinjidude said:
...
From the sounds of it all, no one is willing to compromise.

That is what it looks like.
This being said, having the problem be completely ignored again doesn't help either.
If this will be locked though, I guess I might split the topics of "down-voting when not getting first" & "useful content" into separate threads, since they are separate issues which should really be fixed/improved regardless.

Fred1515 said:
That's an option too. I don't think that many people besides DakuTree find the current situation especially troublesome, and certainly nobody got so worked up to actually suggest such extreme measures before.

That's only due to me actually staying around instead of actually leaving. Both jxh and log mentioned that things like this caused them to stop uploading. I really doubt those are the only two users who stopped uploading because of this. Hell, I'm amazed I'm still around.
The fact of why I'm taking such extreme measures is because the easy methods have already been completely ignored. Without doing something about the users doing it, or making it impossible for the problem to happen in the first place, the entire problem will just continue.

DakuTree said:
Both jxh and log mentioned that things like this caused them to stop uploading.

Okay, let's quote the exact two fragments that you are referring to.

jxh2154 said:
It's sort of part of why I almost stopped, but honestly 90% of the reason is admin work and just having minimal free time in life in general.

This one sort of part of proves that it was problematic for him, but then he added this no less relevant part about admin work and hardly any free time in life. Quite the opposite to you.

Log said:
This whole theory is ridiculous. Only one thing can force someone to search out new artists and that's initiative. When 4get started using a script or whatever to auto-upload gofu within minutes of his posting a new image or other people determined poaaju is awesome did I search out new artists? Fuck no, I don't have time to go through a hundred artists to find one whose style I like.

I just stopped uploading.

This however doesn't really indicate "first getting" as a problem, more like no will and time of his, to search further on after other people sat on his findings. As in, making him unable to upload things he like did not make him search for anything new.

Nice try DakuTree, but not good enough.

S1eth said:
Why are some of you so intent on making Danbooru worse by removing useful features? What would change if you couldn't see the name of the uploader?

pros:

• people who don't get "first" won't be as butthurt

cons:

• removes incentive to upload art
• inability to contact the uploader
• inability to track uploads and tag updates
• no way to find good/bad uploders/taggers
• you can not gauge a post's tag quality by looking at the uploader's name
• generally hurts the community

Oh, come on, I know you are smart enough to understand that this is not the case. I really don't care about getting my name on uploads, particularly from pixiv, I had not uploaded a single post from pixiv yet. I consider tagging already uploaded posts to be a better way of spending my time.
And I'm pretty sure that DakuTree don't care about it either, so far he did enough for this site to prove that he's really trying to help and make things better.
The real issue is a poor tagging that accompanies being "first" in a "competition".

The first and the last cons you listed don't make any sense, they are just not true for anyone who's here to help and not to boost their e-penis. Others are valid, true, but see next part of my post about it.

I specifically said that at least removing "by user xxxxxxxx" at a post's page and "user:xxxxxx" in the thumbnail mouseover tooltip won't hurt at all. You will still be able to check the post's tag history and see who uploaded the thing and how much tags he added. And all other functionality will also stay.
All it will do is remove the simple way of boosting someone's ego by having their nickname at an easily visible place. To me, this does sound like a compromise. I'm not sure how much it will help, but it certainly won't hurt either.

not going to engage in arguing or adding oil to the fire, but why not let the script run for a limited time? maybe a week or at least for just a few days when users upload the most?

here we got a problem hounding us since forever and someone bothered enough to offer a solution. if we could only see the extent this solution could actually solve anything and if ever successful as promised, then maybe it's worth considering. it's better if we have the "data" of what it had actually done than assessing its "damage" hypothetically.

the community, i believe, will not collapse because a script is running for just a few days. let's just pretend it's some sort of maintenance job running. and if i remember correctly, albert spoke of better integration with pixiv before. and if DakuTree could implement it in a way smoothly, then that would be a great site asset.

if the script got the blessings of the admin, then let's reevalaute after if we did gain something out of it. if people changed their behavior/practices for the better or for worse. the community is not limited to uploaders alone. we also have taggers/gardeners and the casual viewers (which probably is the largest).

if the script somehow made high-quality posts more accessible to most users, properly tagged, and increased the site traffic, and the desire to donate financially, then we are also helping albert.

Tagging should be made more important for user promotions.

Bad tagging should result in negative records more often and delay or in bad cases prevent promotions or even result in temp bans. Good tagging should give positive records and speed up promotions.

Right now it's basically only about uploads, changing that would probably help to manage the situation. Even if not it sure can't hurt.

I still think a minimum tag requirement would be best, though.

I take back my edit before, and am once again unsure what to think about this. It depends so much on how many people are doing what for what motives. I don't upload so don't have a stake in this (other than the continuation of the site) and am basing my thoughts on other's input. Poor tagging seems to be the cause of desire for a bot and user uploading is what others have an issue with.

I did think trying a bot should be delayed yet for a while yet, as who knows what danbooru2 will fix or brake, but I would be in support of a test.