Do we need Classic Sonic characters?

Damian0358 said:

I didn't say that you were some mastermind orchestrating the tag's existence, I'm just saying you arbitrarily allowed the tag to exist without bringing it forth for further discussion. The only reason why the tag had more than 50 posts was because of your action, and the first time the tag was ever discussed in the forum was in topic #16889. You just didn't think about the consequences the tag might have, it's just like the time when Kalp tried to imply the useless team fortress (series) tag in a Mario copytag implication thread, topic #18534, not because he was trying to sneak it past in a big BUR to fool everyone, but because he was too lazy to make another BUR for it.

Yeah, you didn't say it, but it sounded a lot like it. "arbitrarily allowed the tag to exist" I saw five years ago a useful tag for users that would look for Classic Sonic stuff that was under tagged... That was it.
There was plenty of opportunities for discussion about the tag over the years yet 0 issues were brought up. You were an active user at the time of topic #16889, five years ago, if I'm not mistaken, when I brought it up for implication to the main Sonic (series) tag. No users expressed concerns over this umbrella tag at the time and following years. The implication approved after a few adjustments and feedback in that topic.

Damian0358 said:
Regardless of whether or not that tag's existence was a "grand mistake," its existence came about in the same way as the chartags this thread is about - without any proper discussion whether or not they should exist in the first place, and the fact it exists now directly disallows Kalp's chartags to exist. So either the copytag lives or the chartags live - both products of a lack of discussion - they can't both exist.

As already said, in similar situations the specific chartags were deleted while prioritizing copyright tags that cover a specific variation of the characters. And the current BUR in this topic has most people voting for eliminating those chartags, once again.
I'm also not saying that if something worked in the past it automatically still works in the present. If the tag on its own has legit issues (which I personally am not seeing any) then you can create another topic or a BUR that deprecate, nuke and/or remove implications, explain your reasoning and accept the result of it.

mortalkombachan said:

Yeah, you didn't say it, but it sounded a lot like it. "arbitrarily allowed the tag to exist" I saw five years ago a useful tag for users that would look for Classic Sonic stuff that was under tagged... That was it.
There was plenty of opportunities for discussion about the tag over the years yet 0 issues were brought up. You were an active user at the time of topic #16889, five years ago, if I'm not mistaken, when I brought it up for implication to the main Sonic (series) tag. No users expressed concerns over this umbrella tag at the time and following years. The implication approved after a few adjustments and feedback in that topic.

Often times tags just end up sneaking by without much attention, only to garner it years after. Using Team Fortress (series) as an example again, with the rejection of the BUR in topic #18534, it took until topic #23624, two years after, for something to be actually done about it. Someone easily could've done what you had done with Sonic the Hedgehog (Classic), manually populating the tag after Kalp's failed attempt to kickstart the tag, and through its thorough tagging normalize its existence. Whether or not Kalp has realized that consciously, he's certainly realized thorough tagging prior to any discussion improves its odds at acceptance even if it goes against past practice (ala topic #26340 where Zets brought up the RED and BLU TF2 chartags which Kalp also made without discussion, forcing everyone else to do it in his stead, or forum #338346 where he uses disambiguations in other games to justify costume tag creation as if the disambiguations are the costumes' names), though it doesn't always work out for him still (such as topic #31077).

The reason why I said 'arbitrarily' is because, regardless of whatever logic you had in believing the tag was fine, it was still your choice to just populate it and bring it forth without asking on your end whether or not the tag makes sense (presenting it instead as is, no discourse, because you personally had no reason to doubt it, so why would anyone else speak about it besides implication requirements), especially in light of its creation after Sonic Generations, given earlier arguments. And once a tag is established, unless someone really has a bone to pick with it, people are willing to give them a lot of leeway, and in turn, not express concerns... especially if they have no idea how long the tag has existed, because no one bothers to check that info to begin with (so, for instance, who knows how much more like this Kalp has done).

As already said, in similar situations the specific chartags were deleted while prioritizing copyright tags that cover a specific variation of the characters. And the current BUR in this topic has most people voting for eliminating those chartags, once again.

And I personally have no issue with that, if anything, seeing Kalp's dreams be crushed gives me some euphoria given what he's been doing at forum #338346.

I'm also not saying that if something worked in the past it automatically still works in the present. If the tag on its own has legit issues (which I personally am not seeing any) then you can create another topic or a BUR that deprecate, nuke and/or remove implications, explain your reasoning and accept the result of it.

And that's the thing, my main beef with the tag isn't that there's a problem with it, at least in my personal opinion, but that its existence is just like the chartags Kalp has made, created without wider discourse from the main folks behind it. I personally do not care whether the tag exists or not, I do not think about it, I am not involved in Sonic tagging - my only Sonic-exclusive post is post #8314833 - but I do care about proper procedure, especially with something that purports to cover art referencing a decent swath of games. It is so normalized that topic #26558 happened and codified it, and then forum #305971 built on top of that. It is now the largest copy-subtag under the Sonic series, with more posts than Adventure and Adventure 2 combined. It feels appropriate to me that, for something like that, you'd have a discussion on whether or not a tag like that would actually be of use without issue even if you personally feel there would be no issue, since you can then give opportunity to users like Kalp and Zets who might see issues even if you disagree with them.

I literally told Kalp a week or so ago in the aforementioned Discord discussion to make a thread as soon as possible for his Classic chartags, because I knew that, sooner or later, someone was going to notice them and make a thread expressing their opinions on them and thereby influence the discussion, and as we can see, that's literally what has happened - what with topic #31154 leading into this thread with Zets making a BUR aliasing the proposed chartags out of existence. The start of any forum discussion is always going to influence how that discussion turns out, unless it is incredibly divisive. Kalp is showing his sloppiness here, especially by the fact that he chose to only link the Discord discussion and not distill its main points into readable text on site here beyond a simple 'consensus', because honestly, who voting here is going to bother checking the Discord? It's on his end to communicate the points discussed there, not on the voter.

I also want to add that it's not great for discussions about things like these to ONLY happen on Discord. Some users likely don't use Discord, and I am not particularly active in the server. I just found the Classic Amy tag randomly and mentioned it in my thread about the strange Sonic Channel tag, and then was pointed to the Discord discussion by Damian.

I am one of the most active uploaders and taggers for Sonic and if Damian hadn't pinged me to the previous discussion on this topic on Discord I would have had no idea it had happened.

Trouble_Windows said:

I also want to add that it's not great for discussions about things like these to ONLY happen on Discord. Some users likely don't use Discord, and I am not particularly active in the server. I just found the Classic Amy tag randomly and mentioned it in my thread about the strange Sonic Channel tag, and then was pointed to the Discord discussion by Damian.

I am one of the most active uploaders and taggers for Sonic and if Damian hadn't pinged me to the previous discussion on this topic on Discord I would have had no idea it had happened.

I'm not in the server and don't intend to join it, so when someone directly links to one of the channels saying something like, "Here's a related discussion that happened on discord", it's completely useless to me because obviously I can't actually see it.

Obviously I'm not going to say people can't discuss things on discord, and it's already been establish multiple times by now that discussions eventually should find their way to the forums so that everyone that uses the site can weigh in, but don't just link the channel for context. Screenshot it or throw it a pastebin link or something, so that the rest of us can actually have the full context.

Trouble_Windows said:

if Damian hadn't pinged me to the previous discussion on this topic on Discord I would have had no idea it had happened.

blindVigil said:

don't just link the channel for context. Screenshot it or throw it a pastebin link or something, so that the rest of us can actually have the full context.

I just also want to point out here that the whole reason why the discussion in the Discord server, the one Kalp linked, only happened because I remarked in horror that Kalp was remaking the chartags and Alex MKW pinged him to explain himself. He proceeded to explain himself by saying a) Classic Sonic is as valid a character as Toon Link, Young Link, and Paper Mario because he's established as his own character in Generations and Forces and is an unlockable character in all the mobile games (invoking the gacha tagging argument); and b) utilizing Sonic the Hedgehog (Classic) for specifically character designs is iffy due to the broad nature of the copytag. Given the copytag is what prevents the chartags from existing, I then told him to make a thread proposing the copytag be replaced with his chartags, which he said sure to, but then he dropped out because he was at work and "future me will do that".

Fast-forward to a week later, and that's where Trouble falls in the timeline, where I linked the discussion to her and proceeded to talk about Kalp's repeated offenses of making major tags that require forum discussion without consulting anyone and getting away with it, due to the whole normalization aspect I brought up earlier (and why my critique of mortalkombachan's actions from a few years ago with the copytag are just as much critiques of Kalp and his greater offenses). The whole reason why Kalp was pinged earlier in this thread was because I told Zets to ping him.

KalpacMuskoxen said:

I appreciate the points about Espio and Charmy, and I can concede on those specific characters for now, as their Classic designs lack significant visual distinction.

Wait a second, I retract this statement. Classic Espio actually is one of the most visually distinct of the Classic characters!

asset #25292012
asset #25291966
asset #25292024
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fwiavav098np91.jpg

Trouble_Windows said:

BUR #39034 is pending approval.

remove implication sonic_the_hedgehog_(riders) -> sonic_the_hedgehog
remove implication knuckles_the_echidna_(riders) -> knuckles_the_echidna
remove implication tails_(riders)_(sonic) -> tails_(sonic)
remove implication shadow_the_hedgehog_(riders) -> shadow_the_hedgehog
remove implication silver_the_hedgehog_(riders) -> silver_the_hedgehog
nuke sonic_the_hedgehog_(riders)
nuke knuckles_the_echidna_(riders)
nuke tails_(riders)_(sonic)
nuke shadow_the_hedgehog_(riders)
nuke silver_the_hedgehog_(riders)

On a related note, these have been bothering me for a while... The male characters in Sonic Riders literally only get eyewear and slightly different shoes at most... These are nothing.

While I respect your opinion on the Sonic Riders male character designs, I believe describing them as "nothing" overlooks their significance and the broader context of tagging on Danbooru. Yes, the changes are primarily eyewear, gloves, and modified footwear. However, these elements are the core components of the characters' outfits, as they are nude sans gloves and shoes to begin with. Altering these, alongside additional accessories, generates a noticeably different look, justifying separate tags.

These Riders costumes are among the series' most recognizable alternate outfits. They appear in all three Sonic Riders games, are featured prominently in IDW Publishing's Sonic the Hedgehog comics, and have dedicated events in Sonic Speed Simulator. This widespread and recurring usage demonstrates their importance.

The fundamental problem with combining character tags and the sonic_riders copyright tag is its imprecision. The copyright tag is applied to any image containing the Babylon Rogues or Extreme Gear. For instance, post #7794360 includes Jet, Knuckles, Shadow, and Silver. It's tagged sonic_riders because Jet is present, but Knuckles, Shadow, and Silver aren't in their Riders outfits. This illustrates how the combined tag search fails to reliably isolate the specific Riders designs.

This approach isn't about excessive detail; it's about providing tools for accurate searches. It aligns with established site practice for visually distinct designs, especially in gacha games. Separate tags for skins/outfits are standard, even when those variations are "just skins" within the game. The core principle is prioritizing search accuracy and ease. Applying this inconsistently, with Riders tags for some characters but not others, harms the site's search functionality. A consistent application of dedicated tags for these visually distinct and recurring Riders looks improves user experience and is consistent with broader site tagging.

mortalkombachan said:

...The tags were created by an user named M28 and not "multiple dedicated taggers"... I also explained privately to said user that those character tags were not necessary, with Sonic the hedgehog (classic) tag around... And, Classic Sonic is just, younger Sonic... If there's an agreement that Classic Sonic character tags should exist I'll simply accept it, but for now most seem to agree that these tags are unnecessary still, as per the voting in BUR #39032.

To clarify, multiple users created and utilized these tags. @klorpa created classic_sonic in 2021, @tapnek created amy_rose_(classic) in 2024, and @M28 created classic_eggman and classic_amy in 2023 (retagging amy_rose_(classic)). Counting both pre- and post-purge usage, at least nine users within the Sonic tagging niche have used these tags: @Hassantaleb4, @K-Ran, @TVW, @klorpa, @M28, @tapnek, and myself. This represents a significant portion of the active Sonic taggers.

The comparison to situations like Chun-Li (SF6) isn't directly applicable. Those are iterative designs of the same character. Classic and Modern Sonic are treated as distinct entities within the Sonic canon, and they are visually distinct.

Regarding Classic Sonic being "just younger Sonic," Sonic Generations (2011) initially presented him that way. However, Sonic Forces (2017) established him as coming from a different dimension. He's a younger Sonic from an alternate reality. The classic_sonic character tag was created in 2021, long after this distinction was made. Removing that tag based on an outdated understanding of the character's status demonstrates a misunderstanding, and negatively impacted other users' tagging efforts.

EDIT: Here's some screenshots - https://imgur.com/a/JybqXSZ

Regarding the BUR, I maintain that the current vote does not reflect the best approach for tagging these visually distinct characters.

Damian0358 said:

the fact it exists now directly disallows Kalp's chartags to exist. So either the copytag lives or the chartags live - both products of a lack of discussion - they can't both exist.

It's important to clarify that while I expanded the "Classic" character tags to include others, I didn't create the initial concept. Other users had already established these tags for Classic Sonic, Classic Amy, and Classic Eggman. My actions were building upon existing, albeit inconsistently applied, precedent. I certainly will admit to the creation of tags for classic_tails, classic_knuckles, and the Classic Chaotix tags, however.

Trouble_Windows said:

I also want to add that it's not great for discussions about things like these to ONLY happen on Discord... I am one of the most active uploaders and taggers for Sonic and if Damian hadn't pinged me to the previous discussion on this topic on Discord I would have had no idea it had happened.

blindVigil said:

I'm not in the server and don't intend to join it, so when someone directly links to one of the channels saying something like, "Here's a related discussion that happened on discord", it's completely useless to me because obviously I can't actually see it.

Obviously I'm not going to say people can't discuss things on discord, and it's already been establish multiple times by now that discussions eventually should find their way to the forums so that everyone that uses the site can weigh in, but don't just link the channel for context. Screenshot it or throw it a pastebin link or something, so that the rest of us can actually have the full context.

My apologies! Here is the full Discord discussion. https://imgur.com/a/LKTY6Bx

Damian0358 said:

Fast-forward to a week later, and that's where Trouble falls in the timeline, where I linked the discussion to her and proceeded to talk about Kalp's repeated offenses of making major tags that require forum discussion without consulting anyone and getting away with it, due to the whole normalization aspect I brought up earlier (and why my critique of mortalkombachan's actions from a few years ago with the copytag are just as much critiques of Kalp and his greater offenses). The whole reason why Kalp was pinged earlier in this thread was because I told Zets to ping him.

(Minor quibble, I use he/him, but it's not a big deal)

KalpacMuskoxen said:

While I respect your opinion on the Sonic Riders male character designs, I believe describing them as "nothing" overlooks their significance and the broader context of tagging on Danbooru. Yes, the changes are primarily eyewear, gloves, and modified footwear. However, these elements are the core components of the characters' outfits, as they are nude sans gloves and shoes to begin with. Altering these, alongside additional accessories, generates a noticeably different look, justifying separate tags.

You can just tag the additional eyewear, you know. sonic_the_hedgehog green-tinted_eyewear should mostly return Riders Sonic. In fact, I think making separate tags for additional accessories is a bad idea in part because it encourages people to not tag those accessories outside of using the costume tag. That's why, for example, I removed the Amy Rose (Pro Riders) tag, because it should be covered by amy_rose_(riders) heart-shaped_eyewear. I don't think it would help anyone if people just tagged "Amy Rose (Pro Riders)" and didn't bother with heart-shaped eyewear at all.

I should tag script sonic_the_hedgehog_(riders) -green-tinted_eyewear, on that note.

These Riders costumes are among the series' most recognizable alternate outfits. They appear in all three Sonic Riders games, are featured prominently in IDW Publishing's Sonic the Hedgehog comics, and have dedicated events in Sonic Speed Simulator. This widespread and recurring usage demonstrates their importance.

...Are they, though? I couldn't even tell what made Silver the Hedgehog (Riders) different at first. I also don't think this inherently gives them merit for chartags. The Riders tags (again, barring the girls) are also the tags that uploaders forget to add the most often, I usually have to add them myself - but they do remember to tag the copyright tag.

The fundamental problem with combining character tags and the sonic_riders copyright tag is its imprecision. The copyright tag is applied to any image containing the Babylon Rogues or Extreme Gear. For instance, post #7794360 includes Jet, Knuckles, Shadow, and Silver. It's tagged sonic_riders because Jet is present, but Knuckles, Shadow, and Silver aren't in their Riders outfits. This illustrates how the combined tag search fails to reliably isolate the specific Riders designs.

This is fair, but again, I still think a good amount of this can be alleviated by properly tagging those accessories when they're present.

blindVigil said:

I'm not in the server and don't intend to join it, so when someone directly links to one of the channels saying something like, "Here's a related discussion that happened on discord", it's completely useless to me because obviously I can't actually see it.

Obviously I'm not going to say people can't discuss things on discord, and it's already been establish multiple times by now that discussions eventually should find their way to the forums so that everyone that uses the site can weigh in, but don't just link the channel for context. Screenshot it or throw it a pastebin link or something, so that the rest of us can actually have the full context.

I shouldn't need to read 18 screenshots to figure what's going on. If the discussion didn't happen on this forum, then it didn't happen period. Anyone that tries to use Discord as "consensus" to implement sweeping changes will get a Dmail at best, a ban for vandalism at worst.

Trouble_Windows said:

(Minor quibble, I use he/him, but it's not a big deal)

You can just tag the additional eyewear, you know. sonic_the_hedgehog green-tinted_eyewear should mostly return Riders Sonic. In fact, I think making separate tags for additional accessories is a bad idea in part because it encourages people to not tag those accessories outside of using the costume tag. That's why, for example, I removed the Amy Rose (Pro Riders) tag, because it should be covered by amy_rose_(riders) heart-shaped_eyewear. I don't think it would help anyone if people just tagged "Amy Rose (Pro Riders)" and didn't bother with heart-shaped eyewear at all.

I should tag script sonic_the_hedgehog_(riders) -green-tinted_eyewear, on that note.

...Are they, though? I couldn't even tell what made Silver the Hedgehog (Riders) different at first. I also don't think this inherently gives them merit for chartags. The Riders tags (again, barring the girls) are also the tags that uploaders forget to add the most often, I usually have to add them myself - but they do remember to tag the copyright tag.

This is fair, but again, I still think a good amount of this can be alleviated by properly tagging those accessories when they're present.

I have been notified by several people than I'm an idiot and forgot I can use this excuse. They're all gacha costumes.

https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Knuckles
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Shadow
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Silver
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Sonic
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Tails
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Vector

https://x.com/SonicSimulator/status/1770888108050956547
https://x.com/SonicSimulator/status/1890491201578848443

KalpacMuskoxen said:

I have been notified by several people than I'm an idiot and forgot I can use this excuse. They're all gacha costumes.

https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Knuckles
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Shadow
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Silver
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Sonic
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Tails
https://sonic-speed-simulator.fandom.com/wiki/Riders_Vector

https://x.com/SonicSimulator/status/1770888108050956547
https://x.com/SonicSimulator/status/1890491201578848443

I know they're gacha costumes. This doesn't argue against my points at all.

Trouble_Windows said:

I know they're gacha costumes. This doesn't argue against my points at all.

It doesn't, but the gacha argument has yet to fail elsewhere on-site, so it technically does.

Damian0358 said:

It doesn't, but the gacha argument has yet to fail elsewhere on-site, so it technically does.

Gacha games were a mistake.

I don't know why there is so much discourse on the Discord in this thread, I made the BUR in response to it being brought up in the Sonic Channel thread here forum #342958 and it had seem redundant when I first realized it was added to my posts a week prior. While I discussed the topic after the fact in the server no policy was set in stone and @KalpacMuskoxen's conversation prior doesn't legitimatize or delegitimize the tags existence. The only effect outside conversation has had on this thread's creation is I made a new post afterwards to ping Kalpac so he could see it and could defend his tags. I'd rather attack the merits of the tags on their own not the user who made them, though in the future I do think that if someone makes a derivative character tag they should be responsible for opening a thread to imply and discuss it. Again though, poor practice, not a point against or for the tag.

The parent of Sonic the Hedgehog (Classic) also doesn't matter for the purpose's of this conversation. It should have gone through the forum, it didn't that's the subject of another thread. Perhaps one on tag creator responsibilities.

____

I still think there is no visual difference between the Classic tags created and the base tag that isn't explained by a slightly different art style (post #7189912). I think it is absolutely ridiculous that a gacha game 15 years after the original title can justify the creation of a tag for Sonic with goggles (post #7792401) when the game it's from has just over 120 images and has a 99% overlap with the costume tag.

If we did not have so much granularity with the game titles I could see the need for it, but we don't. I think it's funny that Zelda keeps getting brought up as a comparison when there is really only 4 Link tags. We don't have a separate tag for the BOTW Link even though he is much more visually distinct from OOT Link than Rider's Sonic is to base Sonic. We could go through and tag each game's Link separately, they are all slightly different even ignoring Toon vs Young, but we don't, because the game tags exist. Animal Crossing doesn't even have any game granularity and yet despite different costumes for the characters in each game no one has found there to be a big enough difference to even bother making individual costumes. Elesa_(pokemon) and several other characters in Pokemon have massive differences between games but we just tag BW or BW2, I could go on.

There comes a point when I feel people are just sorting to sort and it doesn't actually bring more search utility it just clutters the tags. If a search will naturally bring up the costume without extra steps the tag is unneeded. Going back to the "Classic" tags Sonic Classic + Espio IS classic_espio, there are non-Gacha copyrights with more specific costume tags but normally they are ones that are very difficult to search since they don't come with a more specific title. Mermaid_misty_(pokemon), kurosawa_dia_(dengeki_g's_poster_swimsuit), suzumiya_haruhi_(young), for instance all can't be replicated with a two tag search and don't have a massive overlap with a single copyright tag.

While I'm biased against costume tags I also recognize their utility in certain circumstances or when it would otherwise be a lengthy search, in Sonic's case it very much isn't.

I should further enforce I'm an idiot by not remembering to explicitly state that the Classic characters appear in the gacha titles Sonic Dash, Sonic Runners, Sonic Forces: Speed Battle, and Sonic Speed Simulator.

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Characters_in_Sonic_Dash#List_of_playable_characters
https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Runners#Playable_characters
https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Characters_in_Sonic_Forces:_Speed_Battle#List_of_playable_characters
https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_Speed_Simulator/Characters

This is directly relevant because Danbooru generally creates separate character tags for visually distinct, named versions of characters from gacha games, even if they are considered "skins" within the game. This prioritizes search precision.

The broad use of sonic_the_hedgehog_(classic) is problematic. As pointed out in the related Sonic Channel topic (forum #31154), and I'll quote directly:

Damian0358 said:

Your argument is that because it debuted in SC, it should have that as a copytag, when the counterargument is that its appearance in SS makes it ambiguous whether or not the fanart is supposed to be for SC now. It's like how we shouldn't tag Rosalina with super_mario_galaxy anymore after appearing in Super Mario 3D World because now she's gotten broad enough that her fanart is no longer explicitly a reference to her debut game.

Which raises a really good point. Classic Sonic and friends appear extensively in modern titles like Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces, and Sonic Superstars, shown in these examples:

post #8608514
post #7212963
post #4131153
post #5769218
post #8182285
post #8580691
post #7345626

Using sonic_the_hedgehog_(classic) on these images would be inaccurate, as they are explicitly not referencing the pre-Dreamcast era, but Modern games instead.

zetsubousensei said:
I still think there is no visual difference between the Classic tags created and the base tag that isn't explained by a slightly different art style (post #7189912).

This argument doesn't hold up when you look at the posts I just listed. All of these images depict both Classic characters and Modern characters together in artwork based off of Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces, and Sonic Superstars, all illustrated in the same art style. They are clearly visually distinct characters despite being rendered in the same style. Notably, they appear alongside their Modern counterparts in official media like Sonic Generations, Dash, Runners, Forces, and Speed Simulator, and are clearly visually distinct from each other both in-game and in promotional materials.

Additionally, the following artworks do not explicitly reference any specific game. You can't tag these as Sonic Generations or Sonic Forces for sure, but it adheres to the relationships established in those games (The Modern characters befriending the Classic characters), so you can't use either game tag as a band-aid workaround:

post #1672723
post #5278733
post #8483327

Taken from the Sonic Channel thread:

Trouble Windows said:

Should we tag all art of Blaze's summer costume as just sonic_the_hedgehog_(idw) because it was from a variant cover before it was in a game? i don't think that would benefit users searching very much - either users who don't know this searching for the game it appears in, OR users who are searching the idw tag for actual art of the idw comics.

We can apply the same rhetoric to the Classic characters. Should we tag all art of them as just sonic_the_hedgehog_(classic) because those forms originated in the pre-Dreamcast era before they were in modern games? Similarly, I don't think that would benefit users searching very much for users searching the sonic_the_hedgehog_(classic) for actual artwork referencing the classic games.

zetsubousensei said:

While I'm biased against costume tags I also recognize their utility in certain circumstances or when it would otherwise be a lengthy search, in Sonic's case it very much isn't.

It very much is. The sonic_the_hedgehog_(classic) copyright tag, by its own definition, shouldn't be applied to artworks depicting Classic characters in Sonic Generations, Sonic Forces, or any new game, so using that copyright tag in lieu of a character tag defeats its own purpose. As more Sonic X Shadow Generations or Sonic Speed Simulator artwork is posted, it's going to muddle the results of those looking for artwork referencing pre-Dreamcast games.

Similarly, regarding the Riders outfits, re-using quotes from the Sonic Channel thread:

Trouble Windows said:
Plus it adds an extra copytag to posts like post #7564780 because technically Blaze's maid costume was first used in Sonic Channel art, even though it's an unlockable costume in Sonic Speed Simulator and usually gets that copytag. (For some reason someone decided replacing it was a good idea...)

Trouble Windows said:
should we tag all art of Blaze's summer costume as just sonic_the_hedgehog_(idw) because it was from a variant cover before it was in a game? i don't think that would benefit users searching very much - either users who don't know this searching for the game it appears in, OR users who are searching the idw tag for actual art of the idw comics.

I agree with this sentiment. The Riders outfits, while originating in the Sonic Riders series, have significant appearances outside that series, including the IDW comics:

post #7222622
post #7225324
post #7225289

And Sonic Speed Simulator. Therefore, restricting them to the sonic_riders_(series) copyright tag is insufficient. Using individual character tags like sonic_the_hedgehog_(riders), is more consistent with gacha game tagging conventions, is more accurate and allows users to easily find images of these specific designs, regardless of the specific game or media being depicted. The sonic_riders_(series) tag should be reserved for images specifically referencing the Sonic Riders games themselves, such as these:

post #2616161
post #8919804
post #5741748

I'm less thrilled on this idea for the Riders stuff given the series's cohesive visual identity, but I'm not necessarily opposed to your idea for the classic characters. Not 100% sold, either, though.

Trouble_Windows said:

I'm less thrilled on this idea for the Riders stuff given the series's cohesive visual identity, but I'm not necessarily opposed to your idea for the classic characters. Not 100% sold, either, though.

I appreciate you're leaning towards the idea for the Classic characters. Since you're not 100% sold yet, could you elaborate on what specific points or reservations remain? I felt the arguments about visual distinctiveness, canonical separation, and alignment with site precedent (especially regarding gacha characters/skins) were quite comprehensive.

KalpacMuskoxen said:

I appreciate you're leaning towards the idea for the Classic characters. Since you're not 100% sold yet, could you elaborate on what specific points or reservations remain? I felt the arguments about visual distinctiveness, canonical separation, and alignment with site precedent (especially regarding gacha characters/skins) were quite comprehensive.

Sometimes the distinction between their appearance can be minimal beyond art style, such as with Tails and Knuckles. It's also kind of canonically inconsistent at times whether or not they're alternate versions of the cast or younger/past versions.

However I do understand that there are people who have a fondness for these specific incarnations of the characters, that some of them are much more visually distinct, and that the copyright tag as it stands is a little bit of a mess and not a perfect solution, especially due to lack of precision for searching for the pre-Dreamcast games and not the "Classic universe".

On a side note, I don't personally believe gacha inclusion makes something inherently noteworthy for tagging purposes, so that part didn't really matter much to me.

Hillside Moose said:
I shouldn't need to read 18 screenshots to figure what's going on. If the discussion didn't happen on this forum, then it didn't happen period. Anyone that tries to use Discord as "consensus" to implement sweeping changes will get a Dmail at best, a ban for vandalism at worst.

My apologies for missing this comment earlier!

Understood regarding the primacy of forum discussions for consensus. Apologies for the confusion caused by referencing the Discord chat; I've included screenshots for transparency, but agree that decisions need to be made here.

I'd like to clarify my actions regarding these tags, as I believe characterizing them as "sweeping changes" or "vandalism" on my part might stem from a misunderstanding of the timeline. My intention wasn't to implement changes based on Discord consensus, but rather to restore tags (classic_amy, classic_eggman, etc.) that had previously existed and were utilized by several members of the Sonic tagging community (including @klorpa, @M28, @tapnek, and others, as I detailed earlier).

These tags were later removed en masse, seemingly without prior forum discussion or BUR process, by other users (@mortalkombachan acknowledged performing removals). My subsequent actions involved repopulating these specific, pre-existing character tags. I viewed this as addressing the prior un-discussed removal, not initiating new "sweeping changes." Notably, I did not remove the sonic_the_hedgehog_(classic) copyright tag during this process, despite my reservations about its ambiguity, which I hoped demonstrated a less disruptive approach. If my restoration actions were perceived as circumventing process, that wasn't the intent – the goal was to address what seemed like prior undocumented mass removals.

Trouble_Windows said:
Sometimes the distinction between their appearance can be minimal beyond art style, such as with Tails and Knuckles. It's also kind of canonically inconsistent at times whether or not they're alternate versions of the cast or younger/past versions.

I understand the point that for some characters like Tails and Knuckles, the visual difference between Classic and Modern designs can seem minimal compared to, say, Amy or Eggman.

However, regarding the canonical inconsistency (younger selves vs. alternate dimension versions), Danbooru's tagging often accommodates distinct character versions regardless of the specific lore explanation. It's standard practice to have separate tags for significantly different stages or established alternate versions of a character, even if they represent the same individual at a different age or in an alternate form. We see this precedent with tags like:

Baby Mario (and other baby characters in the series, such as Baby Luigi, Baby Peach, Baby Rosalina, and so on.)
Joseph Joestar, Joseph Joestar (Young), Joseph Joestar (Old)
Solid Snake and Old Snake
Genji and Young Genji
Established alternate forms like Toon Link, Young Link vs. Link.

The principle seems to be that if a version is distinct enough visually or canonically treated as a separate entity (as Classic characters explicitly are post-Generations/Forces, appearing alongside Modern characters), it often warrants its own tag for searchability. The Classic Sonic characters fit this pattern of being visually and/or canonically distinct entities appearing concurrently with their modern counterparts in various media.

Trouble_Windows said:
On a side note, I don't personally believe gacha inclusion makes something inherently noteworthy for tagging purposes, so that part didn't really matter much to me.

While I respect your personal perspective on gacha inclusion, established site guidelines and admin statements suggest it is often considered relevant for tagging decisions. The proliferation of distinct, named character versions and skins in gacha games has influenced Danbooru's tagging philosophy to prioritize searchability for these specific forms.

evazion has commented on this multiple times, establishing a precedent:

"Gacha games today go much further with having dozens of alternate skins/outfits/whatever than past games ever did. Our tagging has to adapt to that." (Source: forum #154636)

"If a character has multiple distinct versions, then each version should get its own tag... It doesn't matter if they're skins, or alternate class summons, or costume dresses... visually they're all the same thing [for search purposes]."(Source: #forum #172656)

"Is Verniy a separate character from Hibiki, or is she just Hibiki with a white hat? It's beside the point - Verniy is a popular alternate version, and that makes it useful enough to have a tag for her." (Source: forum #154636)

Given that the Classic characters (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Eggman) and the Riders outfits (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, Vector) appear as distinct, named, playable units/skins in gacha titles like Sonic Dash, Sonic Runners, Sonic Forces: Speed Battle, and Sonic Speed Simulator, applying this established gacha tagging precedent supports creating/maintaining separate character tags for them (e.g., classic_amy, sonic_the_hedgehog_(riders)). This ensures users can accurately search for these specific, officially recognized designs, aligning with how skins from Overwatch, Azur Lane, Arknights, etc., are handled.