Donmai

Deprecating the Habit

Posted under Tags

nonamethanks said:

habit -favgroup:30563 -priest -nun has close to 4k posts. Nuking habit from those posts would make them unsearchable. That's not good enough. Someone searching for nuns isn't going to search for "nun headdress", they're just going to search for nun.

habit -favgroup:30563 -priest -nun -priestess -monk now solely consists of Strive Bridget, who isn't even wearing a habit but rather just a hoodie that has a hood that looks like a nun headress, so the BUR should be fine now.

BUR #30947 has been rejected.

deprecate habit

Second go at this, since the arguments against the tag's existence haven't been made any less valid, and as mentioned above, habit -favgroup:30563 -priest -nun -priestess -monk only consists of Strive Bridget, who isn't wearing a habit, but a hooded jacket that, when hood up, resembles a nun headdress, and every post in the search has hood up tagged on it.

first off i'm not against the elimination of the tag, but this seems to be more of a tagging issue than the tag itself, since technically speaking a nun could also be from any religion while habit refers to the western garments, be it female or male, it just so happens that western nuns are more popular among artists.
on the other hand people keep tagging strive bridget with both nun and habit and the remaining posts are mostly western nuns who are not wearing a coif+veil, priests should also be tagged with habit but people just don't do that most of the times.
speaking of which, the tag buddhist_nun consist mostly of kiara which from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the difference looks exactly like any other western nun on the site and the most popular buddhist nun (ichirin) isn't tagged with it most of the times.
i like to compare religious habit with maids and butlers, the male counterpart of a nun is a priest and it makes sense to have an unisex tag for their clothing, although in this case the servant tag does nothing but that's an issue on it's own}}

Netsuhakumi said:

first off i'm not against the elimination of the tag, but this seems to be more of a tagging issue than the tag itself, since technically speaking a nun could also be from any religion while habit refers to the western garments, be it female or male, it just so happens that western nuns are more popular among artists.
on the other hand people keep tagging strive bridget with both nun and habit and the remaining posts are mostly western nuns who are not wearing a coif+veil, priests should also be tagged with habit but people just don't do that most of the times.
i like to compare religious habit with maids and butlers, the male counterpart of a nun is a priest and it makes sense to have an unisex tag for their clothing, although in this case the servant tag does nothing but that's an issue on it's own}}

The tagging issue is inherently connected to the tag given the tag's history, as mentioned in the previous page. The fact that people keep tagging Strive Bridget with habit and comparatively don't tag priests with habit is by the tag's design (as both a nun padding tag, and as a tag for nun designs people weren't comfortable tagging with nun. The fact that in the half year between the two BURs no attempt had been made to resolve habit's issues on the part of those who keep tagging habit shows there's no interest in resolving the fundamental issues behind it, not even a lazy "mass update nun, priest, priestess, etc. -> habit" BUR. There's no recovering the tag at this point.

I don't know if I'd compare maids and butlers to nuns and priests, especially as no one has asked for a unisex tag for the former (and habit wasn't made as one to begin with); hell, you look at the earliest history for servant and you find that it was intially used for depictions of servants that don't count as either maids or butlers, since those tags are far more heavily based on the specific attire either wears than them being specifically servants to someone.

speaking of which, the tag buddhist_nun consist mostly of kiara which from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the difference looks exactly like any other western nun on the site and the most popular buddhist nun (ichirin) isn't tagged with it most of the times.

Well, blame nun for that, because every post under that tag was also tagged with that prior to receiving that tag. The fact that Ichirin is largely not tagged as nun to begin with is the reason for this discrepancy - that and it being a fairly new, undertagged tag.

BUR #35999 is pending approval.

deprecate habit
nuke habit

The ultimate deprecation and dismemberment of catholic in topic #25704 has inspired me to give this one last go, my final stand, essentially. Literally every post in this tag has a subtitute in some shape or form - whether it be nun, priest, priestess, or monk, or hood up - so none of the posts in this tag would become unsearchable as a result of the tag getting deprecated and nuked.

It continues to be used as either a nun pad tag or as a tag in place of nun (which I then have to go and correct, so that it doesn't get arbitrarily divided - post #8752698 is a recent example of this), absolutely nothing has changed about the tag's usage in the past year since I made my original BUR.

Just to be clear, my understanding is that a habit consists of a dress. a veil, and a coif or wimple, and that if one or more of those elements is missing, then it should not be tagged as a habit, is that correct?

The wiki for habit makes some claims which are not accurate, such as specifying that the 'Christian version' is black. This is incorrect, and doesn't even accurately describe Catholic nuns, but rather only Benedictine nuns. Carmelite nuns, for example, wear a brown dress and white veil. This should be updated if we're keeping the tag. (Heck, the wiki doesn't even mention the wimple as an option!)

Regardless, there's a tremendous amount of gardening to do, especially with regard to those components, as a quick perusal of posts tagged as either 'habit' or 'nun -habit' showed a wealth of undertagging. For example, post #8391172 shows a nun who is wearing a blue dress, blue veil, and white coif, even though only one of those three is tagged at the time I am writing this. This would clearly add up to a full habit, which the character is not tagged with, perhaps because of the poor description in the wiki or perhaps simply because the image is woefully undertagged. Meanwhile, we also have (Explicit) post #8718964 which depicts a character wearing a black veil and white coif but no dress of any color save invisible, and so this clearly should not be labeled habit as it presently is.

If all of the above posts were properly tagged, especially with regard to only tagging an outfit as a habit when all components were present, then I think there would be a far better argument for keeping the tag, as a way to indicate either that a particular nun is fully dressed, or in the case of nsfw content, using '-habit' to find nuns who are not in full uniform, such as in my second example above.

In conclusion: the tag is a mess and people are doing a shitty job of tagging their images, which may be muddling the usefulness of this and related tags.

definitelysleeping said:

Just to be clear, my understanding is that a habit consists of a dress. a veil, and a coif or wimple, and that if one or more of those elements is missing, then it should not be tagged as a habit, is that correct?

I think there would be a far better argument for keeping the tag, as a way to indicate either that a particular nun is fully dressed, or in the case of nsfw content, using '-habit' to find nuns who are not in full uniform.

Technically incorrect, there's nothing in the wiki which suggest that an incomplete habit wouldn't count as a habit (and in turn, a nun habit). Therefore, such a use case has never been considered unless you side with zetsubousensei's view that the tag was intended for nun headdress, which I've categorically proven is not the case and has never been the case (but wouldn't undermine a suggestion of making a tag that's specifically that).

Regardless, there's a tremendous amount of gardening to do, especially with regard to those components, as a quick perusal of posts tagged as either 'habit' or 'nun -habit' showed a wealth of undertagging. For example, post #8391172 shows a nun who is wearing a blue dress, blue veil, and white coif, even though only one of those three is tagged at the time I am writing this. This would clearly add up to a full habit, which the character is not tagged with, perhaps because of the poor description in the wiki or perhaps simply because the image is woefully undertagged. Meanwhile, we also have (Explicit) post #8718964 which depicts a character wearing a black veil and white coif but no dress of any color save invisible, and so this clearly should not be labeled habit as it presently is.

You'll find many more examples of this under nun generally. Most folks don't even know how to tag a nun's headdress properly, let alone tagging their robe, which is why since then nun's wiki now lists out the constituent parts of a nun's habit now.

In conclusion: the tag is a mess and people are doing a shitty job of tagging their images, which may be muddling the usefulness of this and related tags.

Yes, the tag is a mess because no one cares about it - that's unrelated to poor tagging.

1 2