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The alias is a hard no IMO, something of this magnitude would absolutely bulldoze the site, servers, searches, blacklists and related tags for a non-negligible amount of time and very little payoff (if any). It seems to me the majority of the pro-change crowd wouldn't be satisfied with it, they'd rather see Bridget stop being associated with masculine labels no matter how they're worded.
Sanctity said:
Yup. Boys and girls are currently sex based tags, otherwise we wouldn't be deciding if Bridget should be tagged as 1boy or 1girl. To tag a fully clothed character as otoko no ko as a boy, the character's sex is taken into consideration. This is done without seeing the character's genitals. Thank you for disproving your previous statement that sex only applies to yuri if you can actively see the character's genitals.
It's quite a reach to say that this is disproven based on characters who are not girls and don't identify as girls. If a character is tagged as a girl, whether or not she has a penis is entirely on a TWYS basis, and everything else follows from that (including yuri). This is also basically how we deal with Bridget in the posts we have changed - no otoko no ko, no tags indicating her original sex whatsoever.
If people are extremely bothered by girls with offscreen penises, they should probably start thinking about how to change the tags to accommodate that. The proposed transgender rework would partially help, but there would be nothing equivalent for futas.
e: post #3066918 is a particularly blatant example of this, with someone getting (jokingly?) upset in the comments.
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bakanon said:
This caught my curiosity, so I decided to take a quick look at other sites. These are my findings:
- Gelbooru, Sankaku and rule34.xxx use male tags by default, with female tags being reserved for cases where Bridget has breasts.
- There was a brief discussion on Gelbooru's report tag poisoners forum about following Danbooru's position regarding Briget. The discussion was abandoned a while ago, but they continue to tag Bridget as male while waiting for Danbooru's decision.
- rule34.us and ATFbooru don't have an "official" consensus, and uploaders tag artworks however they like, with images being tagged as male or female (or both) seemingly at random.
- Safebooru changed all post-Strive art of Bridget to 1girl, although a couple of pre-Strive images were affected too. It doesn't seem that users engaged in discussion before the change was done.
- Paheal and rule34hentai don't have specific tags for sex/gender. Bridget is Bridget (literal, they don't make distinctions between Bridgets from different IPs).
- TBIB gets its images from other boorus, but almost all images seem to be tagged as male (like in Danbooru, Gelbooru and Sankaku).
- Pixiv doesn't have rules or guidelines regarding characters, but most artists have been using male tags like "otoko no ko", "cute boy" and even "shota" (when Bridget is an adult in Strive) for Strive Bridget.
- Some artists do use "transgender" or female tags, but they seem to be a minority.
- Other artists don't even put tags beyond "Bridget" and "Guilty Gear".
- The most recent doujins featuring Bridget available in Exhentai treat Bridget as male (a well endowed male in one of them ;^) ).
- Sites that scrap Exhentai (like nHentai) use the same tags.
- Social media like Twitter, Pawoo and Baraag are too difficult to measure due to a lack of proper tags and a functional search tool, so I'll skip them.
In conclusion, most sites prefer to treat Bridget as male by default (even when there's trans imagery), recurring to the use of female tags only when the character meets the criteria of futanari/newhalf/shemale/gender_swap tags, and Danbooru seems to be the only site where this topic was and still is being discussed. This preference for male tags applies to all SFW art as well, except for Safebooru, where post-Strive art is tagged as female.
Thanks for your work, i would just like to add that the use of the Shota tag has relation with the fact that Bridget was seem as s Shota in Japan, that was part of his appeal, it's said that Boku no Pico came from Bridget. Shota i about aesthetics not age, so it's possible to put Bridget inside this label as long as they meets the aesthetic criteria
After reading through the thread and taking some time to collect my thoughts, I've decided to give my opinions on the questions brought up by evazion in forum #222115. Before that, please keep in mind that these are not my personal thoughts on any real-world issues, they are simply my ideas on the best way to manage tags on an anime booru. I am also not infallible, and thus am absolutely willing to discuss any of the proposals below. I don't hate you, and certainly hope nothing in this will cause you to hate me. Thanks.
If we tag Bridget as a girl, then do we tag every single Bridget post as a girl? Only Strive posts? Only SFW Strive posts? Only SFW Strive posts where she passes as a girl?
SFW Strive posts only, specifically those that use Bridget's Strive form, and not just having any character from Strive in there.
If we tag every Bridget post as a girl, then what about posts from 15 years ago, when the character was universally considered male? Don't say "well obviously we're not going to do that" because it's not obvious, there are people arguing exactly for this.
It may not be obvious, but my solution is "we don't do that".
If it's only on Strive posts, then is it on every Strive post? What about posts that predate the announcement (post #4380966)? What about when Bridget is drawn as a hyper-muscular male (post #5578244)? What about when the artist explicitly says their version of Bridget is a boy (pixiv #101019086, post #5668339)?
If it's not on every Strive post, then when is it? Just when the artist says their version of Bridget is female? Just when Bridget passes as female?
If it's when the artist says their version of Bridget is female, then what about when some artists say their version is a girl and while others say theirs is a boy? Then we're getting similar-looking posts tagged differently based on what the artist says.
Correct, and I don't entirely disagree. My stance is that if a particular work specifies one way or another, that should be what is used. This is mostly because it has been expressed that knowledge about a character is an important part of the appeal for some. The only time I maybe wouldn't do this is if commentary or text blatantly flies in the face of the visual depiction (ex. large breasts, wide hips and vulva being called a boy). Key word BLATANT. This would need to be something really, truly unreconcilable. Maybe there's some weird edge cases with gender bending or transformation that would be an exception, but rule of thumb: Go with what the author says unless it really, REALLY does not make sense.
If it's when Bridget passes as female, then what about NSFW posts like post #5575041 or post #5576596? Do these pass as male or female? If we go this route, we're going to have the "is Bridget a girl or a boy?" debate on every single post.
Explicit posts are the one instance where I'd be most likely to consider having 1boy as default, mostly because these are the kinds of posts people tend to feel most strongly about. But in general, I feel Bridget should be defaulted to 1girl in ambiguous situations (particularly when there is a lack of information in the work to prove either side)
What about when the character looks female, but the artist says it's an otoko no ko? See this Pixiv search; many Japanese artists still tag Bridget as 男の娘. Sometimes even in conjunction with transgender tags. What takes precedence, the developer's intent, the artist's intent, or the viewer's interpretation?
Artist intent, but LARGELY EXCLUDING PIXIV TAGS. They can and should be taken into consideration when there is other supporting information that could independently raise the question, but outside of that it needs to be remembered that a significant part of picking pixiv tags is for the purposes of post reach and visibility. Information in, say, commentary or the image itself is less influenced by this factor. We already ignore pixiv tags sometimes, loli being the first one that comes to mind, I don't think this would necessarily be unreasonable. Yes, yes, I am aware that the loli tag is quite a different situation due to the legal considerations it has. But I digress.
If we just tag Bridget from Strive as a girl, and old Bridget as a boy, then what about posts like post #5624037? This is new Bridget together with old Bridget. Is this 2girls, 1girl+1boy, or 2boys? What about post #5624039; is this yaoi, yuri, or hetero?
2boys, largely because of the nearly identical child post with penises. I think posts that have parents/children that are substantially similar should be taken into consideration. Ignoring that, there is still no situation where I would see myself tagging the parent post as 2girls.
If we tag Bridget as a girl, then what about all the other gender-related tags? Do we remove the otoko no ko and crossdressing tags (is it crossdressing when Bridget wears boy clothes or girl clothes)?
For ease of enforcement, have "gender-dependent tags" be applied consistently with the tag used on the post. Remove the tags, have crossdressing be for boy clothes (though that tends to be a significantly higher bar than the other way around). This of course would only apply on posts where Bridget is tagged as a girl. Don't arbitrarily remove them from boy tagged posts, yada yada.
Do we replace yaoi with hetero?
See above. Gender-dependent tags should line up with the gender tagged on the post.
Do we tag her as flat chested?
I'll leave this for others to answer. Boob tagging isn't really my thing, I mostly upload men.
When Bridget is drawn with breasts (post #5654426), is that a magical male-to-female genderswap (implying the character is originally male), or a hypothetical post-gender transition scenario?
If we tag Bridget as transgender, again, do we tag every Bridget post as transgender, or only Strive posts, or only Strive posts where Bridget is overtly depicted as transgender?
No opinion.
Do we need new 1transgirl and 1transboy tags instead of 1girl or 1boy? Is it transphobic to tag her as a transgirl instead of a "real" girl? What about when you just want to do a simple 1girl+1boy search, but now gender is fragmented into N different tags (1girl, 1boy, 1other, 1transgirl, 1transboy, etc)?
Do we need new transgirl with male and transgirl with female tags to replace the yaoi tag and hetero tags? What about all the people who blacklisted yaoi? Keep in mind yaoi and male focus are some of the most blacklisted tags on the site.
No opinion.
Does Bridget even identify as transgender? She doesn't say "I'm trans"; she says "I'm a girl". The developers don't say "Bridget is transgender"; they say "Bridget self-identifies as a woman and use female pronouns". Arguably "trans" is not a label Bridget uses for herself. And arguably tagging her as transgender or using tags like transgirl with male instead of hetero can itself be called transphobic, because it's a rejection of the idea that she's a real woman the same as other women.
No opinion.
Honestly amazed by how long this thread is.
At least Canonically/explicitly/word-of-god-confirmed trans characters such as Bridget should have their gender identities respected, i think. Even if you are reluctant to disassociate genitals with gender in the cases of nsfw posts, it is quite disrespectful and confusing as to tag even sfw arts of canon trans characters as their birth sex. At least it would be helpful to tag both sfw and/or nsfw posts of canon trans characters as transgender going forward as the newly renamed gender transitioning does not cover canon trans characters in simple non-transition related scenes. Having a catch-all tag for canon trans characters, separate from other similar but inaccurate tags eg. otoko no ko would be very helpful going forward, imo.
And honestly this seems to be the conflict between danbooru's "tag-what-you-see" apprach, and the current "birth-sex-not-gender-identity" policy, as in sfw posts the birth sex is, unless otherwise stated or understood, indeterminable, forcing you to tag according to visual gender expression, while in nsfw posts the genitalia sex seems to trump everything else even if the character is explicitly NOT stated or understood as the gender tagged. The words "boy" and "girl" are fundamentally gender-based word senses, so unless we want to tag everyone strictly by genitalia we should at least grant exceptions to canon trans/gender-diverse characters.
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Considering the context that femboys/transfeminine ppl walking between the lines of traditional notions of masculinity and femininity, the media representation of which, especially in conservative societies/times, is often subject to closeted homophobia and fetishization, and real life trans ppl really wanted to see accurate and respectful representation in art, theres a lot of strong opinions one may hold. Regardless, in Japanese LGBT and anime context, otoko no ko is more or less a catch-all term for femme-presenting ppl assigned male at birth, INCLUSIVE of hrt transitioned trans women with boobs and the like, so imo there really isn't a conflict when an artist tags a fanart of a canon trans character as otoko no ko, because they may not know the more modern or accurate terminologies.
Considering Bridget only came out as trans after her character development in Strive, at least post-strive arts, regardless of nfsw or not, should be tagged as both 1girl and transgender as opposed to proposed 1transgirl/1boy tags as gender transitioning is way too narrow to define trans characters and otoko no ko is way too broad for that purpose, as well as 1other being more suitable for canon non-binary/genderfluid/androgynous characters rather than binary trans characters eg Bridget. Going forward if any new trans characters emerge or previous non-trans characters coming out in new media, i think tagging their character development as trans would be helpful and splitting the character into different pre-/post- trans story tags would not be necessary, as simply adding transgender in search would cover posts after that development.
tldr:
NEW trans characters should always be tagged as their canon gender identity, plus transgender tag for catalog and easy searching. (eg. Lily Hoshikawa, pas(paxiti)'s catperson)
PREVIOUSLY NON-TRANS characters should have their post-character development fanarts tagged as their new canon gender identity and transgender tag. (eg. Bridget)
I'm not sure how to exactly tag if an artist draw them genderswapped/post-surgery genitalia, but either the old genderswap tags or new tags such as bottom surgery or neophallus/neovagina should suffice?
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Tsumikiss said:
Considering the context that femboys/transfeminine ppl walking between the lines of traditional notions of masculinity and femininity, the media representation of which, especially in conservative societies/times, is often subject to closeted homophobia and fetishization, and real life trans ppl really wanted to see accurate and respectful representation in art, theres a lot of strong opinions one may hold. Regardless, in Japanese LGBT and anime context, otoko no ko is more or less a catch-all term for femme-presenting ppl assigned male at birth, INCLUSIVE of hrt transitioned trans women with boobs and the like, so imo there really isn't a conflict when an artist tags a fanart of a canon trans character as otoko no ko, because they may not know the more modern or accurate terminologies.
Considering Bridget only came out as trans after her character development in Strive, at least post-strive arts, regardless of nfsw or not, should be tagged as both 1girl and transgender as opposed to proposed 1transgirl/1boy tags as gender transitioning is way too narrow to define trans characters and otoko no ko is way too broad for that purpose, as well as 1other being more suitable for canon non-binary/genderfluid/androgynous characters rather than binary trans characters eg Bridget. Going forward if any new trans characters emerge or previous non-trans characters coming out in new media, i think tagging their character development as trans would be helpful and splitting the character into different pre-/post- trans story tags would not be necessary, as simply adding transgender in search would cover posts after that development.
We already talked about that, but this view of Otoko-no-ko is hold by a minority, the consensus of the majority see those characters as feminine boys or ambiguous characters, with preference for masculine leaning characters.
Maiyau said:
We already talked about that, but this view of Otoko-no-ko is hold by a minority, the consensus of the majority see those characters as feminine boys or ambiguous characters, with preference for masculine leaning characters.
Sorry, didn't see your reply when i was adding my tldr.
At least for canon trans characters, we probably should tag their gender identity and transition/genitalia status separately? For example, an nsfw art of Bridget showing her boobs and penis should tag as 1girl, transgender, feminization, breast enlargement, penis, small breasts and another nsfw art of her with vagina should be tagged as 1girl, transgender, genderswap or neovagina
This is exactly the approach to body development e-hentai adopts as their tagging system allow both male:feminization, male:breast expansion and female:dickgirl, female:gender change, except their terminology is more porn-oriented and thus less professional?
This way you could easily search nsfw art of a trans character regardless of their surgery/secondary sexual characteristics status while respecting their gender identity?
Tsumikiss said:
Sorry, didn't see your reply when i was adding my tldr.
At least for canon trans characters, we probably should tag their gender identity and transition/genitalia status separately? For example, an nsfw art of Bridget showing her boobs and penis should tag as 1girl, transgender, feminization, breast enlargement, penis, small breasts and another nsfw art of her with vagina should be tagged as 1girl, transgender, genderswap or neovagina
This is exactly the approach to body development e-hentai adopts as their tagging system allow both male:feminization, male:breast expansion and female:dickgirl, female:gender change, except their terminology is more porn-oriented and thus less professional?
This way you could easily search nsfw art of a trans character regardless of their surgery/secondary sexual characteristics status while respecting their gender identity?
The problem is what are we gonna do with art were Bridget is nothing more than a femboy, which seems to be most art?
Maiyau said:
The problem is what are we gonna do with art were Bridget is nothing more than a femboy, which seems to be most art?
For the majority of sfw post-strive Bridget imo we could tag as 1girl, transgender per her canon story/author's wishes, while pre-Strive classical Briget be tagged as 1boy and otoko-no-ko, I think. Keep in mind that pixiv's tagging system is user-generated and may not redlect the character's author, or the fanart's artist's views.
Tsumikiss said:
Sorry, didn't see your reply when i was adding my tldr.
At least for canon trans characters, we probably should tag their gender identity and transition/genitalia status separately? For example, an nsfw art of Bridget showing her boobs and penis should tag as 1girl, transgender, feminization, breast enlargement, penis, small breasts and another nsfw art of her with vagina should be tagged as 1girl, transgender, genderswap or neovagina
This is exactly the approach to body development e-hentai adopts as their tagging system allow both male:feminization, male:breast expansion and female:dickgirl, female:gender change, except their terminology is more porn-oriented and thus less professional?
This way you could easily search nsfw art of a trans character regardless of their surgery/secondary sexual characteristics status while respecting their gender identity?
In the examples you're giving, you're seemingly failing to recognize that Bridget has not undergone any changes, biological or otherwise, and simply "identifies" as a woman now. It's also why I'm confused when characters like Poison are brought up. The scenario simply isn't the same.
Akebono_no_Hikari said:
In the examples you're giving, you're seemingly failing to recognize that Bridget has not undergone any changes, biological or otherwise, and simply "identifies" as a woman now. It's also why I'm confused when characters like Poison are brought up. The scenario simply isn't the same.
It shouldn't matter what the character's outward gender expressions (asthetics, clothings) and sexual characteristics (breasts, genitalis), are as long as they are Canonically (author explicitly) stated that their gender identity and pronoun usage is different to the one previous assigned/assigned at birth in story.
I was moreso thinking about tagging future trans characters going forward, but there are already nsfw art featuring Strive Bridget with small to fairly large sized breasts (post #5721867 , post #5715393) and vagina (post #5715634). It would be quite egregious if you insist on tagging these as boys, i think.
Tsumikiss said:
It shouldn't matter what the character's outward gender expressions (asthetics, clothings) and sexual characteristics (breasts, genitalis), are as long as they are Canonically (author explicitly) stated that their gender identity and pronoun usage is different to the one previous assigned/assigned at birth in story.
I was moreso thinking about tagging future trans characters going forward, but there are already nsfw art featuring Strive Bridget with small to fairly large sized breasts (post #5721867 , post #5715393) and vagina (post #5715634). It would be quite egregious if you insist on tagging these as boys, i think.
If you don't realize how utterly ridiculous your first point is and how tagging would be affected based on consideration of things like self-determined gender identity or whatever, I'm afraid we can't see eye to eye on this. What would your response to the Hermoine situation mentioned a while ago be?
As for your second point, don't you see how your first contradicts it in the hypothetical case in which Bridget was born a woman only to start "identifying" as male? Would you tag them as boys in this case?
Akebono_no_Hikari said:
If you don't realize how utterly ridiculous your first point is and how tagging would be affected based on consideration of things like self-determined gender identity or whatever, I'm afraid we can't see eye to eye on this. What would your response to the Hermoine situation mentioned a while ago be?
As for your second point, don't you see how your first contradicts it in the hypothetical case in which Bridget was born a woman only to start "identifying" as male? Would you tag them as boys in this case?
It wouldn't be that difficult, it's only a few hundred new Strive Bridget posts, with some cross referencing, manual tagging and patience it can be done. I need time to go back to read previous discussion, so bear with me. For a character's gender identity status, as long as they are mandated by the canon authors and accepted by fandom, I don't see how respectng their trans identities is in violation of any site guidelines.
In story, as explained, repeated by press and the devs blog entry, Bridget is born part of a male twin who is raised as a girl due to superstitions. After rebelling against this upbringing and succeeding in proving the superstition wrong, realized that being a boy does not make her happy and decide to live as a girl in her own volition. If you're talking about trans boys, they need to be tagged according to their canon gender identity too.
Akebono_no_Hikari said:
In the examples you're giving, you're seemingly failing to recognize that Bridget has not undergone any changes, biological or otherwise, and simply "identifies" as a woman now. It's also why I'm confused when characters like Poison are brought up. The scenario simply isn't the same.
Jumping in with my 2 cents as a transgender Danbooru user: I don't understand the complaints about a character not transitioning. It's irrelevant at this point whether or not Bridget has or hasn't "transitioned" because canon source material has proved she is transgender and Word of God has intervened to support this fact. While not always infallible or consistent, this time Word of God seems to synergize with what's being shown in canon, so there's no reason to discard Daisuke's statement on the matter.
If Bridget identifies as a woman now, that makes her transgender, end of. No "transitioning" required. She is already a girl and should be tagged such in the future. Additionally, "femboy" portrayals fail to change the fact Bridget is canonically a girl now, so unless explicitly stated by the artist or drawn in a hyper-masculine fashion, fanwork of Bridget should be viewed with the intent to consume it as female Bridget as opposed to "femboy" or "trap" male Bridget.
sheepguts said:
If Bridget identifies as a woman now, that makes her transgender, end of. No "transitioning" required. She is already a girl and should be tagged such in the future.
Haven't seen anyone claiming that Bridget isn't trans now. However, identifying as the opposite gender does not magically transform you into the opposite gender. Something you should know if you're actually trans yourself. Bridget isn't a girl, Bridget is a man who identifies as a girl. That is NOT the same thing.
sheepguts said:
If Bridget identifies as a woman now, that makes her transgender, end of. No "transitioning" required. She is already a girl and should be tagged such in the future.
No one is disagreeing with the fact that the character is now canonically transgender. However, that does not make him a woman. The fundamental conflict here seems to be a disagreement over the meaningfulness of "gender identity" and its worth as regards tagging, but getting too deep into that is beyond the scope of discussion and will invite nothing good.
darkspire91 said:
Not everyone sees it your way because not everyone believes declaring yourself a gender overrides your genetic code. But, like I've stated here before, no one's mind is going to get changed on a imageboard forum of all places.
genetic code??? why are we going back to the chromosomes argument? not only does this make no sense for ANIME CHARACTERS. but by your logic, characters like Poison who have transitioned via surgery would be tagged as male because surgery doesn't change your genetic code!
morriganaensland said:
Get mad if you want. But this debate isn't going to end and no one is going to budge on either side, this really is the equivalent of yelling at a wall.
morriganaensland said:
but by your logic, characters like Poison who have transitioned via surgery would be tagged as male
Yup.
