Another 2 cents, if yuri fans find anything other than girls on their searches then you can bet they are going to be pissed, genitalia showing or not.
It doesn't appear that anyone has been pissed so far at the way these posts were tagged. No attempted removals and dozens of favorites/upvotes. Also, the only SFW Bridget shipping posts we have to discuss so far are post #5624947 and (debatably) post #5632954.
e: evazion already (tentatively) gave the go-ahead to change the tags for the former, don't use this as an excuse to revert it without discussion.
This site is for an English-speaking, mostly "western" audience. We sometimes rate women with visible ankles as rating:general, so yeah, there is a definitely a cultural bias, but I doubt addressing that would be in the scope of the thread.
I'd say yes, a post where Bridget appears as a girl kissing another girl is yuri. Dynasty Reader, a site that mostly hosts yuri, includes trans women in yuri.
To be clear, we're talking about posts where Bridget could pass as a cisgender girl. The only people who'd be bothered would be those who already know Bridget and how she was once portrayed as a boy.
We could go back-and-forth providing different viewpoints of different people, but that's ultimately just speculation. People, including me are talking about what people want without any numbers. The closest thing is the votes near page 14, but I have to wonder how much of those are affected by the heat of this thread that'll settle down as time passes.
While interesting, this bears as much relevance here as the fact that Gelbooru and Pixiv still use male tags for Bridget. There's probably some intersection in between the ones who use that sites and the ones who use this one, but we need to know how big it's and what would happen if we tried to replicate their stance on this. Also, as you pointed out, the use of the Yuri tag would be more accepted in between those who don't know the character, and i believe that most people here know the character.
Dynasty Reader is not some grand arbiter of what is yuri. All that means is that the admin team believes that trans women are actual women, and we do not know what biases that admin team may have.
If we're going to define our tags on what's useful for our viewers, we'll have to consider what biases they may have. I used Dynasty Reader is a counterexample to the broad claims that people don't want trans women in yuri.
Sanctity said:
Bridget is still male, so should not be tagged with yuri. By your logic, all convincing crossdressing males kissing a female could be tagged as yuri. You can't argue that Bridget should be tagged as a girl because you believe sex and gender are different thus a girl is identity based and then try to include Bridget in sex based categories that are female only.
No, crossdressing doesn't change your gender. We use a combination of appearance and canonical gender to determine the gender tags of many characters. Bridget is canonically meant to be seen as a woman now.
darkspire91 said:
102 against/15 abstain/45 for (at this time) isn't something to brush off as 'heat of the thread'. If anything, it's pretty clear cut where people stand.
All the vote says is what people think about the immediate bulk request, not the more broad and long-term subject of how trans characters are to be tagged. The bulk request had other problems, such as giving a 1girl tag to posts with multiple_girls which somebody pointed out.
Maiyau said:
While interesting, this bears as much relevance here as the fact that Gelbooru and Pixiv still use male tags for Bridget. There's probably some intersection in between the ones who use that sites and the ones who use this one, but we need to know how big it's and what would happen if we tried to replicate their stance on this. Also, as you pointed out, the use of the Yuri tag would be more accepted in between those who don't know the character, and i believe that most people here know the character.
That's fair. I didn't know the character, but I guess that says more about me than it does other site users.
If we're going to define our tags on what's useful for our viewers, we'll have to consider what biases they may have. I used Dynasty Reader is a counterexample to the broad claims that people don't want trans women in yuri.
No, crossdressing doesn't change your gender. We use a combination of appearance and canonical gender to determine the gender tags of many characters. Bridget is canonically meant to be seen as a woman now.
All the vote says is what people think about the immediate bulk request, not the more broad and long-term subject of how trans characters are to be tagged. The bulk request had other problems, such as giving a 1girl tag to posts with multiple_girls which somebody pointed out.
That's fair. I didn't know the character, but I guess that says more about me than it does other site users.
I believe that it's easier for Dynasty to be more open about their tags and content, because they're completely focused on Yuri. The ones who go there are completely focused on Yuri. The act of changing tags in there doesn't affect much, specially when this changes concerns a niche group like this. Here things are different, not everyone is here for Yuri, there are people who're here for Yaoi, people who're here for het, people who're here for other, the slightest change in tags affect many groups and can cause concerns and dissatisfaction in many sects of the site. It's also important to say that, not every Yuri fan is created equal, the people on Dynasty are progressive and inclusive, but there are Yuri groups who're conservative and exclusives, look at places like R/Yuri, Yuri bubbles on Twitter, and in other doujin/manga sites like mangadex or exhentai.
feline_lump said: e: evazion already (tentatively) gave the go-ahead to change the tags for the former, don't use this as an excuse to revert it without discussion.
Whoopsie, then I'll wait until after the BUR rejection to fix it. All I'm trying to say is that if somebody tries to desecrate the purity of yuri they shouldn't be too surprised if someone were to metaphorically visit their house at night /j.
Upon re-reading I realized this could be interpreted as sexual in nature but thats okay because both interpretations are equally threatening sounding, lol.
Biological sex only applies to yuri if you can actively see the character's genitals. There are relatively few examples of characters who are canonically trans or futas engaging in lesbianism without that being involved, but those posts appear to be tagged as yuri without a problem. post #2141542, post #4484366, post #4472627
I'm not going to start a tagging war until we get something of a clear answer out of this thread, but I think these are all tagged incorrectly. yuri has always been concerned with biological sex here.
Bionicman76 said:
Another 2 cents, if yuri fans find anything other than girls on their searches then you can bet they are going to be pissed, genitalia showing or not.
Absolutely. The sole reason I voted no in this BUR is to prevent this, otherwise I couldn't care less what Bridget is tagged. There certainly are yuri fans who are okay with penises in their yuri, but those who don't want penises in their yuri typically feel very strongly it.
agglego2 said:
I'd say yes, a post where Bridget appears as a girl kissing another girl is yuri. Dynasty Reader, a site that mostly hosts yuri, includes trans women in yuri.
For what its worth, even Dynasty has Bridget posts segregated in their #futatrans channel on Discord, not in their main #yuri/#solo channels.
Biological sex only applies to yuri if you can actively see the character's genitals.
If what you said is true then a fully clothed otoko_no_ko kissing a girl could be tagged as yuri since we cannot see his genitals. Yet this has never been done. I don't care much about your examples. For someone to raise a fuss about how those are tagged, the person would have to first see the image, then read the tags, and then think it's worth their time to fix the tags in their eyes and possible have to enter an edit way over the change. It's much easier to ignore how the image is tagged and move on. It only becomes worth discussing if one thinks a systemic change will cause a tag to be misused in their opinion.
agglego2 said:
No, crossdressing doesn't change your gender. We use a combination of appearance and canonical gender to determine the gender tags of many characters. Bridget is canonically meant to be seen as a woman now.
Operating under the belief that sex and gender are different, are male and female terms about sex or about gender for you?
Maiyau said:
I believe that it's easier for Dynasty to be more open about their tags and content, because they're completely focused on Yuri. The ones who go there are completely focused on Yuri.
That's not completely true. Het that has cross-dressing is allowed interestingly enough.
If what you said is true then a fully clothed otoko_no_ko kissing a girl could be tagged as yuri since we cannot see his genitals. Yet this has never been done.
otoko no ko and futanari are different tags. We always tag otoko no ko on worksafe images, but we don't tag futanari or newhalf on characters that we know have penises if they don't appear in frame. Their compatibility or lack thereof with yuri is an extension of that.
The reference to Dynasty Scans does have its limits. It's hard to know how much overlap there is between the two sites, and ultimately might not affect us much. I agree that it would probably be better to focus the talk on Danbooru.
CoreMack said:
For what its worth, even Dynasty has Bridget posts segregated in their #futatrans channel on Discord, not in their main #yuri/#solo channels.
It sounds like futanari and trans are being lumped together, as opposed to trans characters being lumped together with cisgender characters of the same sex (Bridget with otoko no ko). It's a different situation, and it sidesteps the whole "is Bridget a girl?" question.
Sanctity said:
Operating under the belief that sex and gender are different, are male and female terms about sex or about gender for you?
I could see female and male being used for either sex or gender depending on the situation, but for clarity I'm using it to refer to sex in this thread. I've seen the distinction made before, including in this thread, so I figured I'd do that here.
otoko no ko and futanari are different tags. We always tag otoko no ko on worksafe images, but we don't tag futanari or newhalf on characters that we know have penises if they don't appear in frame. Their compatibility or lack thereof with yuri is an extension of that.
You claimed that biological sex only applies to yuri if you cannot see their genitals. Thus if a male character who counts as a otoko no ko and is fully clothed is kissing a female character, then it can be tagged as yuri as it appears to be two girls kissing and we cannot apply the otoko no ko character's biological sex to the validity of the yuri tag as we cannot see his genitals. Since this isn't done, your statement is false.
agglego2 said:
I could see female and male being used for either sex or gender depending on the situation, but for clarity I'm using it to refer to sex in this thread. I've seen the distinction made before, including in this thread, so I figured I'd do that here.
Okay, then why did you start talking about gender tags when I was talking about sex based tags? Depending on what the gender tag is, I can agree with you. Like I can see crossdressing depending on gender and that Bridget should no longer be tagged with it.
You claimed that biological sex only applies to yuri if you cannot see their genitals. Thus if a male character who counts as a otoko no ko and is fully clothed is kissing a female character, then it can be tagged as yuri as it appears to be two girls kissing and we cannot apply the otoko no ko character's biological sex to the validity of the yuri tag as we cannot see his genitals. Since this isn't done, your statement is false.
Generally speaking, otoko no ko characters are identified as boys, and futas and trans women are identified as girls. Boys kissing girls are precluded from the yuri tag in the first place. (Though they might appear in pool #2138 if they're feminine enough.)
(Sex includes secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts and probably facial hair.)
so, in the case of Bridget, it would be
Male (sex) > Woman (gender) > Feminine appearance (gender cues)
What's being proposed is to ignore sex if it isn't relevant to the image, which it isn't for many posts on the site. Gender would still take priority over appearance.
Okay, then why did you start talking about gender tags when I was talking about sex based tags? Depending on what the gender tag is, I can agree with you. Like I can see crossdressing depending on gender and that Bridget should no longer be tagged with it.
Currently, as the tags are now, we tag characters based on gendered cues if there's no canon to go off. post #5718586 could be an otoko no ko, but it's tagged as a girl because we assume that's what the character is. These cues are closer to gender than they are to sex, which is why I referred to our current tags as gender tags.
Generally speaking, otoko no ko characters are identified as boys, and futas and trans women are identified as girls. Boys kissing girls are precluded from the yuri tag in the first place. (Though they might appear in pool #2138 if they're feminine enough.)
Yup. Boys and girls are currently sex based tags, otherwise we wouldn't be deciding if Bridget should be tagged as 1boy or 1girl. To tag a fully clothed character as otoko no ko as a boy, the character's sex is taken into consideration. This is done without seeing the character's genitals. Thank you for disproving your previous statement that sex only applies to yuri if you can actively see the character's genitals.
agglego2 said:
To put it another way, the current system is:
Sex > Gender > Gender cues
(Sex includes secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts and probably facial hair.)
so, in the case of Bridget, it would be
Male (sex) > Woman (gender) > Feminine appearance (gender cues)
What's being proposed is to ignore sex if it isn't relevant to the image, which it isn't for many posts on the site. Gender would still take priority over appearance.
Currently, as the tags are now, we tag characters based on gendered cues if there's no canon to go off. post #5718586 could be an otoko no ko, but it's tagged as a girl because we assume that's what the character is. These cues are closer to gender than they are to sex, which is why I referred to our current tags as gender tags.
Okay, I now understand why you refer to them in that way, though I do disagree with the terminology. I would describe that situation as using sex based stereotypes to identify the sex as best as possible, and figuring out the sex based tags from there.
Because it opens up a can of worms affecting the hetero and yuri tags since many users only go by/ are attracted to biological sex in those and other tags and not gender identity. To put it another way some straight up don't care about gender and only care about the characters birth sex.
I just fail to see the point of just renaming those (and all derived tags) when you can better explain what their purpose is in a wiki page assuming most people don't just look at how existing pictures are tagged and go off of that. Mucking with the names is also mucking with existing blacklists and people's searches. As a more general point, I don't see any major overhaul happening for similar reasons; the transition costs are way too high for little gain.
Maiyau said: While interesting, this bears as much relevance here as the fact that Gelbooru and Pixiv still use male tags for Bridget.
This caught my curiosity, so I decided to take a quick look at other sites. These are my findings:
Gelbooru, Sankaku and rule34.xxx use male tags by default, with female tags being reserved for cases where Bridget has breasts.
There was a brief discussion on Gelbooru's report tag poisoners forum about following Danbooru's position regarding Briget. The discussion was abandoned a while ago, but they continue to tag Bridget as male while waiting for Danbooru's decision.
rule34.us and ATFbooru don't have an "official" consensus, and uploaders tag artworks however they like, with images being tagged as male or female (or both) seemingly at random.
Safebooru changed all post-Strive art of Bridget to 1girl, although a couple of pre-Strive images were affected too. It doesn't seem that users engaged in discussion before the change was done.
Paheal and rule34hentai don't have specific tags for sex/gender. Bridget is Bridget (literal, they don't make distinctions between Bridgets from different IPs).
TBIB gets its images from other boorus, but almost all images seem to be tagged as male (like in Danbooru, Gelbooru and Sankaku).
Pixiv doesn't have rules or guidelines regarding characters, but most artists have been using male tags like "otoko no ko", "cute boy" and even "shota" (when Bridget is an adult in Strive) for Strive Bridget.
Some artists do use "transgender" or female tags, but they seem to be a minority.
Other artists don't even put tags beyond "Bridget" and "Guilty Gear".
The most recent doujins featuring Bridget available in Exhentai treat Bridget as male (a well endowed male in one of them ;^) ).
Sites that scrap Exhentai (like nHentai) use the same tags.
Social media like Twitter, Pawoo and Baraag are too difficult to measure due to a lack of proper tags and a functional search tool, so I'll skip them.
In conclusion, most sites prefer to treat Bridget as male by default (even when there's trans imagery), recurring to the use of female tags only when the character meets the criteria of futanari/newhalf/shemale/gender_swap tags, and Danbooru seems to be the only site where this topic was and still is being discussed. This preference for male tags applies to all SFW art as well, except for Safebooru, where post-Strive art is tagged as female.
Just as a heads up, at Gelbooru our tagging policy generally mirrors Danbooru's. We're going to take whatever approach Danbooru ends up going with, so we shouldn't be referenced as an off-site example.
Just as a heads up, at Gelbooru our tagging policy generally mirrors Danbooru's. We're going to take whatever approach Danbooru ends up going with, so we shouldn't be referenced as an off-site example.
Yeah, I mentioned that in my previous post. However, since discussion about Bridget died off there I assumed that you didn't have further plans for the character. I edited my previous post to explain it with more detail.
sigh... i talk about other booru sites and get ignored... someone else brings it up and gets replies... le double standards... /j
when you can better explain what their purpose is in a wiki page assuming most people don't just look at how existing pictures are tagged and go off of that.
i also agree with at least adding a disclaimer in the wiki pages if the BUR doesn't pass. if the blacklist could accept tag aliases, i would suggest just making 1girl and 1boy an alias and making 1female and 1male the main names, but it doesn't seem like it does...
