Donmai

Bridget - Guilty Gear Strive

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i don't really agree with point 5, mainly because the whole blacklist argument always feels weak to me. it's not like there's a limit on blacklisting, if people really get bothered of seeing Bridget even though she's not an otoko no ko anymore canonically, can't they just blacklist her tag? (or hell, specifically blacklist Bridget + 1girl) it feels silly to supersede canon in favour of fixing a minor problem on the user's end.

edit: i just realized this but my proposed blacklist wouldn't work out, but it's late night over here and i can't fully think of the tags to blacklist. but i am confident it would be possible, sorry >_<;;

morriganaensland said:

i don't really agree with point 5, mainly because the whole blacklist argument always feels weak to me. it's not like there's a limit on blacklisting, if people really get bothered of seeing Bridget even though she's not an otoko no ko anymore canonically, can't they just blacklist her tag? (or hell, specifically blacklist Bridget + 1girl) it feels silly to supersede canon in favour of fixing a minor problem on the user's end.

edit: i just realized this but my proposed blacklist wouldn't work out, but it's late night over here and i can't fully think of the tags to blacklist. but i am confident it would be possible, sorry >_<;;

Again, this site doesn't care much about canon, otherwise every NTR pic would come accompanied of a "wholesome in canon" tag and non canon ships would have "doesn't happen in canon" tag

Maiyau said:

Again, this site doesn't care much about canon, otherwise every NTR pic would come accompanied of a "wholesome in canon" tag and non canon ships would have "doesn't happen in canon" tag

i suppose, but it's not like canon can be completely thrown out the window.
regardless that was just an extra point of mine, i still think the main reasoning of blacklisting purposes is still a bad excuse

Guys, I'm serious about this: "any" change at all to the current tagging system based on canon is going to be a crack in a dam. People so demanding about these changes are NEVER satisfied. There's never just a LITTLE bit of censorship, it never ever ends. There's a thousand hitches and snags these tags are going to catch along the way if you let the river start to carry them.

If we're going to be particular about every single tag on every single picture that has ever been uploaded based on artist intent and interpretation, AND force canon into every instant of every upload, by all means open yourselves up to that headache which can't be cured. Someone's always going to have a problem with a dark-skinned Hermione or a bicurious younger-soldier-76 if the artist merely implied the opposite on a post in 2018. This CANNOT BE ENFORCED PROPERLY.

Bridget has been male for 20 years, there's 20 years of connected male art to the character. The character is always depicted as male even today (especially by japanese artists who largely didn't care about the announcement), save for genderbend art, which has its own tag for that purpose. Considering changing the entire integrity of tags in any way just to appease loud people who have basically already moved on from this character isn't worth it.

Updated

avidd said:

This should be simple to solve: keep the 'boy' tag, add the 'transgender' tag if the image is explicit about it.

No one here wants to say it out loud, but the only reason we're even debating this is because of the same debate going on in the West. There's people here on both sides of the argument and we're obviously never going to convince the other side to change their minds.

We need a hard line that says 'boy' or 'girl' or we're just gonna be back here the next time an artist declares his character transgender.

darkspire91 said:

This should be simple to solve: keep the 'boy' tag, add the 'transgender' tag if the image is explicit about it.

No one here wants to say it out loud, but the only reason we're even debating this is because of the same debate going on in the West. There's people here on both sides of the argument and we're obviously never going to convince the other side to change their minds.

We need a hard line that says 'boy' or 'girl' or we're just gonna be back here the next time an artist declares his character transgender.

Yeah. Which has been already the case since the Backyard on September 14th, and as far as I'm aware, no one has died from it.
Clearly physically transgender/genderbent = Tag that
Otherwise = 1boy

The larger problem here is that self identification or whatever, among other th ings, isn't really conducive to the purposes of a tagging system, doesn't really mean much, and introduces a ton of problems for an already wobbly system. Even bakanon's solution, as good as it is, is a compromise that just can't address the fact that a male holding a flag and identifying as a woman is still male, and altering tagging for this edge case just leads to problems down the line.

Completely agree with the last few comments here; also regarding bakanon's suggestion, about this point here:

bakanon said:

  • Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl

how would that interact with hetero and yuri? Because unless like he mentions these posts also get an additional tag like some variation of transgender, there's no way most people looking for those are gonna like seeing Bridget pop up in their search.

avidd said:

Guys, I'm serious about this: "any" change at all to the current tagging system based on canon is going to be a crack in a dam. People so demanding about these changes are NEVER satisfied. There's a thousand hitches and snags these tags are going to catch along the way if you let the river start to carry them. Considering changing the entire integrity of tags in any way just to appease loud people who have basically already moved on from this character isn't worth it.

Then doesn't that suggest that we should change the current tagging system to something that can actually accommodate stuff like this rather than putting cracks in one that can't? After all, part of the reason why we have this issue to begin with is because of the usage of gendered language for *girl*/*boy*, prompting this whole gender/sex fighting in the first place.

If a solution was found that doesn't compromise the usefulness of the tagging system while enabling the possibility of separate searches for sex, aesthetic and canon-tagging, then that would be ideal. And it would enable us new tagging opportunities too that the current system does not (i.e. resolving the discrepancy agglego2 mentioned for futanari).

groen90 said:
how would that interact with hetero and yuri? Because unless like he mentions these posts also get an additional tag like some variation of transgender, there's no way most people looking for those are gonna like seeing Bridget pop up in their search.

That's actually a problem that nobody so far has been able to answer and that I used as an argument against changing Bridget's tags in my first posts.
I imagine these cases would be treated similarly to Lily's and other transgender characters, but since Bridget's "biology" (for a lack of a prettier term) is much more known than any other character in this situation it's certain that more people would criticize the presence of "incorrectly tagged art" in their searches. I see various ways to deal with it, although none of them are perfect (and I'm still sleepy, so I may be making a massive mistake with one or more of them):

  • SFW art of post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (ps-Bridget-F for shorts) could include new transgender/transgirl tags to make it easier for people looking for 1000%* hetero or yuri images to filter ps-Bridget-f from their results.
  • NSFW art of ps-Bridget-f could use the aforementioned transgender/transgirl tags or even newhalf and futanari tags (even if this is technically incorrect, but we're already using more basic tags "wrong" so YOLO) for the same purpose of helping people to filter out images of Bridget with these particular traits
  • SFW art of ps-Bridget-f is tagged as 1girl without extra tags, similarly to how Lily from Zombie Land Saga was tagged as 1girl (although for different reasons).
  • NSFW art of ps-Bridget-f is tagged as newhalf/futanari, without introducing an additional transgender tag
  • Do absolutely nothing and continue tagging Bridget as 1boy in all cases (except obvious R63) to save taggers further headaches.

There's no way to solve this puzzle without pissing somebody off, so IMO admins should pick the solution (not necessarily one of the ideas I propose in this post) that angers the smallest demographic involved to minimize the "collateral damage" as much as possible.

*No trans, cuntboy, newhalf or futa, just biologic men/women who identify as their respective male/female gender

bakanon said:

  • SFW art of post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (ps-Bridget-F for shorts) could include new transgender/transgirl tags to make it easier for people looking for 1000%* hetero or yuri images to filter ps-Bridget-f from their results.

If Bridget is drawn as a female then it should not get any new trans tags if they are made as a transgender girl is still male.

avidd said:

I'm sorry, but first of all I cannot help but point out in wonder how it is you seem to have this idea of the tagging system as inviolable and unchanging here on a forum where there are literally countless discussions, proposals, and questions about that system. Perhaps I'm the one who has misunderstood, but as I read your repeat statements "The entire integrity of tags" does not actually exist. The "Thousand hitches and snags" have been here all along, have been discussed and voted on and have implemented changes or maintained status quo all along. There's a system, it has rules and is fairly consistent, but it has changed and accommodated and even changed back before. I just don't get a feel for what you're implying here with some broader erosion if this change, after all others, is now accepted.

Honestly in general I do not find in your posts the proper basis for argument on the issue actually at hand. Especially when it comes to your broad and confused labeling of your opposition. Who are these "People that are never satisfied"? What is this censorship are you talking about? WHO are you talking about, and why are you talking about it rather than the actual discussion more often than not? I don't even know if I should be replying to those parts given how I read the rules of participation in the discussion as laid out multiple times now, but it feels like leaving these kinds of statements unchallenged is worse. You've repeatedly come into the thread with assertions that are not only erroneous but irrelevant to that thread.

Moving on, Bridget has been tagged as male for years, but that's not a reason for her to be tagged as male going forward when the entire reason she was that way was lore context beyond "Tag what you see", context that now, in the case of Strive Bridget specifically, contradicts that presumption. As you were already told, if TWYS was the rule Bridget would have been 1girl almost all the time for those years. It's entirely because that's not actually how the system is implemented that we're having the discussion.

bakanon said:

There's no way to solve this puzzle without pissing somebody off, so IMO admins should pick the solution (not necessarily one of the ideas I propose in this post) that angers the smallest demographic involved to minimize the "collateral damage" as much as possible.

I think that's 'mostly' correct, but I'm worried about the phrasing. It seems like "Smallest demographic" is not the correct measure. There's potentially a better middle-ground where more people are pissed off, but less people are as pissed off as they could be, if that makes sense.

Though on that note, even the notion of trying to minimize collateral by making the least overall amount of anger would have problems. Primarily because from my view it seems like there are some kinds of anger that are more or less legitimate than others. If one of 'those people who were making throwaway almost instantly banned accounts to antagonize, throw around insults and make weirdo asinine assertions about the story not being what it is' on Bridget posts was 'As Angry As Humanly Possible Exceeding The Quantity of Anger Otherwise Produced By Humanity' I wouldn't say give that much more weight since, you know, they're kind of a tosser.

Karesh said:

And here is the crux of the problem. People want a middle ground, someone provides a 5 point middle ground, middle ground is picked apart to the point where it's irrelevant.

"We need to find a 'better middle-ground'".

We're not going to solve a decades old cultural debate on the Danbooru forums of all places. Bakanon's right, the admin will just have to make a choice and ride out the 3-5 days of outrage.

darkspire91 said:

And here is the crux of the problem. People want a middle ground, someone provides a 5 point middle ground, middle ground is picked apart to the point where it's irrelevant.

"We need to find a 'better middle-ground'".

We're not going to solve a decades old cultural debate on the Danbooru forums of all places. Bakanon's right, the admin will just have to make a choice and ride out the 3-5 days of outrage.

I literally did not say what you put in the quotes and said nothing to pick apart the 5 point middle ground. Bakanon said the admins should choose based on smallest demographic angry, I said that more people who are overall less angry might potentially lead to a better middle ground than that. That's all.

Updated

darkspire91 said:

No one here wants to say it out loud, but the only reason we're even debating this is because of the same debate going on in the West. There's people here on both sides of the argument and we're obviously never going to convince the other side to change their minds.

This site is for an English-speaking, mostly "western" audience. We sometimes rate women with visible ankles as rating:general, so yeah, there is a definitely a cultural bias, but I doubt addressing that would be in the scope of the thread.

groen90 said:

how would that interact with hetero and yuri? Because unless like he mentions these posts also get an additional tag like some variation of transgender, there's no way most people looking for those are gonna like seeing Bridget pop up in their search.

I'd say yes, a post where Bridget appears as a girl kissing another girl is yuri. Dynasty Reader, a site that mostly hosts yuri, includes trans women in yuri.

To be clear, we're talking about posts where Bridget could pass as a cisgender girl. The only people who'd be bothered would be those who already know Bridget and how she was once portrayed as a boy.

We could go back-and-forth providing different viewpoints of different people, but that's ultimately just speculation. People, including me are talking about what people want without any numbers. The closest thing is the votes near page 14, but I have to wonder how much of those are affected by the heat of this thread that'll settle down as time passes.

agglego2 said:

This site is for an English-speaking, mostly "western" audience. We sometimes rate women with visible ankles as rating:general, so yeah, there is a definitely a cultural bias, but I doubt addressing that would be in the scope of the thread.

I'd say yes, a post where Bridget appears as a girl kissing another girl is yuri. Dynasty Reader, a site that mostly hosts yuri, includes trans women in yuri.

To be clear, we're talking about posts where Bridget could pass as a cisgender girl. The only people who'd be bothered would be those who already know Bridget and how she was once portrayed as a boy.

We could go back-and-forth providing different viewpoints of different people, but that's ultimately just speculation. People, including me are talking about what people want without any numbers. The closest thing is the votes near page 14, but I have to wonder how much of those are affected by the heat of this thread that'll settle down as time passes.

Dynasty Reader is not some grand arbiter of what is yuri. All that means is that the admin team believes that trans women are actual women, and we do not know what biases that admin team may have.
Bridget is still male, so should not be tagged with yuri. By your logic, all convincing crossdressing males kissing a female could be tagged as yuri. You can't argue that Bridget should be tagged as a girl because you believe sex and gender are different thus a girl is identity based and then try to include Bridget in sex based categories that are female only.

But that's what the whole argument boils down to. At the end the admin is going to have to decide if the gender tag will be defined by perceived or anatomy.

agglego2 said:
Dynasty Reader, a site that mostly hosts yuri, includes trans women in yuri.

What a separate website does is irrelevant.

agglego2 said:
To be clear, we're talking about posts where Bridget could pass as a cisgender girl. The only people who'd be bothered would be those who already know Bridget and how she was once portrayed as a boy.

No, we're talking about the tag as a whole. If it was if one could pass off as a girl, there's the 'genderswap' and 'transgender' tags.

agglego2 said:
The closest thing is the votes near page 14, but I have to wonder how much of those are affected by the heat of this thread that'll settle down as time passes.

102 against/15 abstain/45 for (at this time) isn't something to brush off as 'heat of the thread'. If anything, it's pretty clear cut where people stand.

feline_lump said:

Biological sex only applies to yuri if you can actively see the character's genitals. There are relatively few examples of characters who are canonically trans or futas engaging in lesbianism without that being involved, but those posts appear to be tagged as yuri without a problem. post #2141542, post #4484366, post #4472627

Another 2 cents, if yuri fans find anything other than girls on their searches then you can bet they are going to be pissed, genitalia showing or not.

darkspire91 said:

102 against/15 abstain/45 for (at this time) isn't something to brush off as 'heat of the thread'. If anything, it's pretty clear cut where people stand.

i mean... this is the most active topic right now, with people from both twitter and 4chan getting links to the BUR. i doubt it would've gotten this extreme if there wasn't any "heat".

also on the topic of the BUR, if it does end up not passing, can we just like make a note in the wiki pages about how the tag is only biological and also revert the trans flags posts. as much as i am for the BUR passing, it would be seriously weird if the admins decide that the tags are biological except for when it isn't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
also maybe just make those transgender tags idk

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