Bridget - Guilty Gear Strive

morriganaensland said:

the thing with pixiv, from what i can see the pixiv encyclopedia does talk about Bridget being trans on her page. so it seems like the website is pro-girl Bridget. the artists, however....

They mention the story in strive, sure, but that's all. The artists prefer to draw Bridget as a guy because that's just how they like him the most.

I'd be fine with the idea of artist descriptions being used to define the tagging, but as others have said, this opens a whole can of worms that could make the site a mess.
The situation with Bridget is just very rare. Creators don't usually do this to their characters for a reason. If the change wasn't controversial and everyone just accepted to draw Bridget as a girl from now on, that would be one thing. But for all we know, over time people might just think Strive's story was terrible and choose to ignore it completely.
If this sort of gender-change scenario was more common, then it'd be worth considering to change the system. But this is all because of a single character in a niche game series, that might not even appear in another maingame for another 20 years. So maybe changing the tagging system for this isn't a good idea.

Look at how Yamato from One Piece is always tagged as a girl despite all of the characters in the series always referring to him as a man. This discussion just wasn't ever there, so why is it now?

Pixiv also wrote an article about Bridget, just mentioning the new art and new outfit and leaving it pretty basic. The english version of the "same" article added like two full paragraphs about how Bridget is a trans icon and hero and everyone loves the new gender identity and wow such a cool woman who is a girl!

(Then proceeded to use the same art where it was all tagged otokonoko)

Yeah, artists tend to want to draw Bridget as a boy. Haven't seen a single japanese artist draw Bridget with a trans flag yet, and since they were his biggest supporters keeping him #1 in popularity polls for decades, that isn't likely to change. Even with the Daisuke announcement that trended JP twitter for two days.

There is a clear cultural disconnect, and now there's an even bigger artist disconnect. This is beyond the already disconnected prior lore to the character, and the disconnected Backyard. It's just a weird choice all around and continues to make no sense and just be a headache for everyone who isn't a tourist.

Achelexus said:

Look at how Yamato from One Piece is always tagged as a girl despite all of the characters in the series always referring to him as a man. This discussion just wasn't ever there, so why is it now?

well, Yamato still looking 100% female is probably a reason. if Bridget looked more like her biological sex like Yamato or Ladiva from Granblue Fantasy, there probably would not be this much of an outcry in my opinion.

i suppose it's the issue of making a crossdresser actually trans. since it's a fetish being ripped from the identity of the character. and/or the general disdain of trans people in non left-wing communities.
also lots of people still don't think yamato is trans or whatever from what i've seen

avidd said:

Pixiv also wrote an article about Bridget, just mentioning the new art and new outfit and leaving it pretty basic. The english version of the "same" article added like two full paragraphs about how Bridget is a trans icon and hero and everyone loves the new gender identity and wow such a cool woman who is a girl!

just wondering, was this article written before the 11th developer's backyard? because it was still up for debate back then.

evazion said:
I want to remind people the poll is specifically about "Should we tag Bridget as a girl on Guilty Gear Strive posts that are G-rated?" It's only about tagging Bridget as a girl on these specific posts:

• bridget_(guilty_gear) guilty_gear_strive rating:general

Not on these posts:

• bridget_(guilty_gear) guilty_gear_strive -rating:general

Anything before Strive or anything that shows Bridget with a bulge or penis would still be tagged the same way as before.
This is not some proxy battle over trans issues or whether you agree with the changes in the game. It's only about how we should tag Bridget on a specific set of posts.

Consider the following (forum #222859):

• Keep regular pre-Strive Bridget tagged as 1boy, including new art that has Bridget in his old appearance or costume.
• Tag art that depicts Bridget (pre and post-Strive) with breasts and/or vagina (stuff that implies genderswap, newhalf or futanari) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as male (through a description, tags like male/boy or otoko no ko or in the image itself, like Bridget saying "I'm a boy :P") as 1boy
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists didn't openly state what they think of Bridget as 1boy to prevent these images from escaping popular filters like yaoi and otoko_no_ko (which are valid for SFW art too).

This should cover most cases without reducing the usefulness of the tagging/filtering system.

For consistency's sake we should just keep it all as a boy tag. Cherry picking which images get the boy and which gets the girl tag will just encourage the fighting in the comments. If we need some official reasoning, go with anatomical outranks identity.

morriganaensland said:

well, Yamato still looking 100% female is probably a reason. if Bridget looked more like her biological sex like Yamato or Ladiva from Granblue Fantasy, there probably would not be this much of an outcry in my opinion.

i suppose it's the issue of making a crossdresser actually trans. since it's a fetish being ripped from the identity of the character. and/or the general disdain of trans people in non left-wing communities.
also lots of people still don't think yamato is trans or whatever from what i've seen

Well, the fact that you think being a crossdresser/femboy is just a fetish shows what's the issue to begin with, and it's not disdain.

bakanon said:

Consider the following (forum #222859):

• Keep regular pre-Strive Bridget tagged as 1boy, including new art that has Bridget in his old appearance or costume.
• Tag art that depicts Bridget (pre and post-Strive) with breasts and/or vagina (stuff that implies genderswap, newhalf or futanari) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as male (through a description, tags like male/boy or otoko no ko or in the image itself, like Bridget saying "I'm a boy :P") as 1boy
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists didn't openly state what they think of Bridget as 1boy to prevent these images from escaping popular filters like yaoi and otoko_no_ko (which are valid for SFW art too).

This should cover most cases without reducing the usefulness of the tagging/filtering system.

This is probably the best middle ground solution. I agree with this.

I saw someone say "transgender girl" or "trans girl" tag should be introduced but that's not only gonna be abused by twitter users by literally claiming alot of otokonokos / femboys as "1transgirl" but it'll also open the floodgates of gender identity tags like "non binary" or "genderqueer"

I'm pretty sure if they got what they want, the next big controversy will probably be adding "non binary" tags to testament art instead of "1other"

There's no winning with them. You give an inch they take a mile.

Achelexus said:

Well, the fact that you think being a crossdresser/femboy is just a fetish shows what's the issue to begin with, and it's not disdain.

just so you know, i adore crossdressers/femboys. but i can also acknowledge that people can see it as a fetish, like how people can also see trans people as a fetish. we're on a booru page and one of the biggest problems involving this topic is the handling of NSFW pics, can you really say it has nothing to do with fetishes?

and on the topic of disdain, maybe it's not for some people. but if you really think all of the people calling Bridget's story "grooming" is only just a criticism of her arc and not deliberate (considering grooming feels like the new right-wing buzzword), you are a little naive.

bakanon said:

Consider the following (forum #222859):

• Keep regular pre-Strive Bridget tagged as 1boy, including new art that has Bridget in his old appearance or costume.
• Tag art that depicts Bridget (pre and post-Strive) with breasts and/or vagina (stuff that implies genderswap, newhalf or futanari) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as male (through a description, tags like male/boy or otoko no ko or in the image itself, like Bridget saying "I'm a boy :P") as 1boy
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists didn't openly state what they think of Bridget as 1boy to prevent these images from escaping popular filters like yaoi and otoko_no_ko (which are valid for SFW art too).

This should cover most cases without reducing the usefulness of the tagging/filtering system.

Also agree with this.

The second point is pretty much how it already works. The rest, if it's only applied to SFW artwork, well I don't "agree" per se but I'll tolerate it.

mongirlfan said:

Also agree with this.

It's one of the best takes I've seen in this (and the previous) thread for sure.

I'm willing to accept most of bakanon's points, but I take issue with the last one.

It assumes that overall, people looking for girls wouldn't want SFW posts featuring Bridget. But do we have any evidence to suggest this is true? I'm sure there are people who would want the opposite. There are yuri fandoms who strongly believe that trans women can be a part of yuri, for example.

I recognize it may be strange to the typical Danbooru user, to have a character previously regarded as male to be tagged as female. But I do think it's worth considering that trans supporters use Danbooru, and compromising for SFW portrayals of characters who are explicitly, canonically known to be transgender without any contradictory information in the post.

It seems a bit weird to say that a character is a futanari and therefore female if they have breasts and a penis, but if both of those are hidden from frame the character is now male. If anything, futanari is probably more shocking in female-only searches than a SFW pic of a trans woman.

edit: Forgot about the "futa with" tags. The futanari comparison doesn't work with yuri, yaoi, or hetero, but it does with other gender/sex tags like multiple girls.

agglego2 said:

We have to acknowledge the fact that we won't please everyone. This cherry picking and "tolerating" a middle ground, as some here have put it, is just gonna give those that want to pick a fight enough wiggle room to do so.

darkspire91 said:

We have to acknowledge the fact that we won't please everyone. This cherry picking and "tolerating" a middle ground, as some here have put it, is just gonna give those that want to pick a fight enough wiggle room to do so.

The wording of this post is a bit broad. I don't know what in particular you're referring to cherry picking or tolerating a middle ground.

I worded my post specifically to address characters "explicitly, canonically known to be transgender". If people start arguments, simply ask them to provide simple, straightforward evidence. For example, here is proof that Bridget identifies as a woman. From the character's identity and appearance, we can conclude that she is a woman.

We already use evidence to identify a character's gender. If a character is referred to as a woman, she is probably a woman. If she looks like a woman, she is probably a woman. Danbooru's tagging system is essentialist and I'm leaning into that.

We might not reach a conclusion that will please everybody, but I don't think that's a reason to shut off arguments either. bakanon's proposal is only four hours old and there is no strict deadline.

morriganaensland said:
i suppose it's the issue of making a crossdresser actually trans. since it's a fetish being ripped from the identity of the character.

Bit off-topic and you probably know this, but just for people reading, the whole "crossdressing is just a fetish" is a bad stigma crossdressers hate and shouldn't rule out that it's a valid identity to just be male and dress that way.

bakanon said:

Consider the following (forum #222859):

• Keep regular pre-Strive Bridget tagged as 1boy, including new art that has Bridget in his old appearance or costume.
• Tag art that depicts Bridget (pre and post-Strive) with breasts and/or vagina (stuff that implies genderswap, newhalf or futanari) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as male (through a description, tags like male/boy or otoko no ko or in the image itself, like Bridget saying "I'm a boy :P") as 1boy
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists didn't openly state what they think of Bridget as 1boy to prevent these images from escaping popular filters like yaoi and otoko_no_ko (which are valid for SFW art too).

This should cover most cases without reducing the usefulness of the tagging/filtering system.

This is the best solution I've seen outlined here since it addresses most of the tag issues that have cropped up, it has my vote.

mongirlfan said:

Also agree with this.

1+

I support bakanon's points 2, 3, and 4. I'm neutral on 1, and only against 5.

If we do 5 but not 4, I'd also support aliasing the girl and boy tags to use female and male terminology instead.

bakanon said:

Consider the following (forum #222859):

• Keep regular pre-Strive Bridget tagged as 1boy, including new art that has Bridget in his old appearance or costume.
• Tag art that depicts Bridget (pre and post-Strive) with breasts and/or vagina (stuff that implies genderswap, newhalf or futanari) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as male (through a description, tags like male/boy or otoko no ko or in the image itself, like Bridget saying "I'm a boy :P") as 1boy
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists didn't openly state what they think of Bridget as 1boy to prevent these images from escaping popular filters like yaoi and otoko_no_ko (which are valid for SFW art too).

This should cover most cases without reducing the usefulness of the tagging/filtering system.

Agreed on about everything but point 4. Seems mostly solid.

bakanon said:

Consider the following (forum #222859):

• Keep regular pre-Strive Bridget tagged as 1boy, including new art that has Bridget in his old appearance or costume.
• Tag art that depicts Bridget (pre and post-Strive) with breasts and/or vagina (stuff that implies genderswap, newhalf or futanari) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as male (through a description, tags like male/boy or otoko no ko or in the image itself, like Bridget saying "I'm a boy :P") as 1boy
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists refers to the character as female (through a description, tags like (trans) female/girl or in the image itself, like Bridget holding a trans flag) as 1girl
• Tag post-Strive Bridget where the artists didn't openly state what they think of Bridget as 1boy to prevent these images from escaping popular filters like yaoi and otoko_no_ko (which are valid for SFW art too).

This should cover most cases without reducing the usefulness of the tagging/filtering system.

Let's go with this