Bridget - Guilty Gear Strive

nonamethanks said:

newhalf on danbooru is used for futanari without a vagina, because that's what they look like. Pre-op are, by definition, indistinguishable from hetero men as far as their body goes, so we've just tagged them 1boy so far.

Let's be honest here: is the "hetero man" in question post #5691237 or post #2809231? Our standards for biological sex don't make a lot of sense if we're allowed to have a "boy who looks like a girl" category that's permitted to expand almost indefinitely, up to and including physical transition, but then other characters get accused of being girls who look too much like boys who look exactly like girls.

There are already quite a few femboy-esque futas being tagged as such without a hitch (random examples: post #2421757, post #5677618, post #5458662, post #5340072, post #4388950), even though some people searching for otoko no ko would want to find them and wouldn't care about their gender. I support newhalf being brought closer to its parent tag in this respect, as well as making some type of "Almost Femboys" pool for all of these edge cases.

(By the way, Bridget was added to a mobile game and is categorized as a female character. I figure the article in the OP already dispelled most of the doubt about this issue, but it is indeed the path the writers are taking from now on.)

feline_lump said:

Let's be honest here: is the "hetero man" in question post #5691237 or post #2809231? Our standards for biological sex don't make a lot of sense if we're allowed to have a "boy who looks like a girl" category that's permitted to expand almost indefinitely, up to and including physical transition, but then other characters get accused of being girls who look too much like boys who look exactly like girls.

There are already quite a few femboy-esque futas being tagged as such without a hitch (random examples: post #2421757, post #5677618, post #5458662, post #5340072, post #4388950), even though some people searching for otoko no ko would want to find them and wouldn't care about their gender. I support newhalf being brought closer to its parent tag in this respect, as well as making some type of "Almost Femboys" pool for all of these edge cases.

(By the way, Bridget was added to a mobile game and is categorized as a female character. I figure the article in the OP already dispelled most of the doubt about this issue, but it is indeed the path the writers are taking from now on.)

Both examples are seem as boys by the audience, so they're boys. Mistaging or problems with tags may happen in some posts, the problem here is that people want those type of annoyance to be reduced not increased.

Newhalf and Otokonoko are different, muddling them would generate more problems than it's worth. Also, how would we even implement something like "Almost Femboy"?

The authors are allowed to do whatever they want, Shimakaze is a girl in Kancolle, doesn't stop artist from depicting them as a boy and the users of tagging this art as "1boy +Otoko no ko ". If Bridget popularity as a girl ends up surpassing their popularity as a boy in public conscience, them i believe that it would be right to start tagging every art as a 1girl, but by now this haven't happened. And some fans on Twitter complained about the use of feminine term and symbols for Bridget in this game, saying that they wanted an Otokonoko.

Maiyau said:

Both examples are seem as boys by the audience, so they're boys. Mistaging or problems with tags may happen in some posts, the problem here is that people want those type of annoyance to be reduced not increased.

Newhalf and Otokonoko are different, muddling them would generate more problems than it's worth. Also, how would we even implement something like "Almost Femboy"?

They're really not that different at all, and expanding the newhalf tag to include more types of characters intended as such would increase search utility for people looking for newhalves. About one third of all posts tagged as newhalf on Pixiv are also tagged as otoko no ko, and there's also cases like Oozora Hibari, an explicit newhalf created decades before the otoko no ko trope even existed that gets tagged as one retroactively. I see no real problem with retagging these characters, other than the fact that some (but not all) users still want them in otoko no ko searches.

"Almost Femboys" would theoretically work exactly like pool #2138 or pool #6546. A character looks almost exactly like a femboy, but by some technicality, they're not. You could choose whether to have these in your query or not depending on whether these technicalities matter to you.

The authors are allowed to do whatever they want, Shimakaze is a girl in Kancolle, doesn't stop artist from depicting them as a boy and the users of tagging this art as "1boy +Otoko no ko ". If Bridget popularity as a girl ends up surpassing their popularity as a boy in public conscience, them i believe that it would be right to start tagging every art as a 1girl, but by now this haven't happened. And some fans on Twitter complained about the use of feminine term and symbols for Bridget in this game, saying that they wanted an Otokonoko.

This seems more like a "should we do this now or later" question rather than "should we do this at all". I don't mind implementing it at a point where it's not very controversial (whenever that may be), but I don't see any harm in discussing it now either.

Possible point of reference: Akizuki Ryo had a gender debate very early on from people who wanted Idolmaster to be 100% female, and some people ignored obvious hints that this wouldn't happen. As soon as the game's contents became clear, we ended up tagging all these old Ryo posts as boys unless proven otherwise.

feline_lump said:

They're really not that different at all, and expanding the newhalf tag to include more types of characters intended as such would increase search utility for people looking for newhalves. About one third of all posts tagged as newhalf on Pixiv are also tagged as otoko no ko, and there's also cases like Oozora Hibari, an explicit newhalf created decades before the otoko no ko trope even existed that gets tagged as one retroactively. I see no real problem with retagging these characters, other than the fact that some (but not all) users still want them in otoko no ko searches.

"Almost Femboys" would theoretically work exactly like pool #2138 or pool #6546. A character looks almost exactly like a femboy, but by some technicality, they're not. You could choose whether to have these in your query or not depending on whether these technicalities matter to you.

This seems more like a "should we do this now or later" question rather than "should we do this at all". I don't mind implementing it at a point where it's not very controversial (whenever that may be), but I don't see any harm in discussing it now either.

Possible point of reference: Akizuki Ryo had a gender debate very early on from people who wanted Idolmaster to be 100% female, and some people ignored obvious hints that this wouldn't happen. As soon as the game's contents became clear, we ended up tagging all these old Ryo posts as boys unless proven otherwise.

More than half of the art work showed in the link you used doesn't appear here, so i don't think this happenstance is so useful for us. And they're really different, as you yourself pointed out, the majority, two thirds, don't see the two as interchangeable.

Cases like Hibari-kun are more complex, since terms like Newhalf were used as an umbrella during the time of the creation of the series, the same goes to Okama. We use the term Otoko no ko now, because the majority agree that the character, who was created to be a boy for subversion,fits inside of Otokonoko better than it fitted inside the term Newhalf. But there's a lot of space to argue how to properly label ambiguous characters like that, or if we can even find a proper labels for them.
You pointed the problems, users want those characters in the Otokonoko tag, and they don't fit inside our idea of Newhalf, so retagging them would generate more problems and muddle the labels, making people get confused regarding their proper usage.

What would those technicality be? A femboy is a boy who's feminine, if we include characters who aren't boys or that don't look like boys in any way, we would generate problems and take away from the term.

Ryo case is different, they always had the Otokonoko aspect by what i know, so it wasn't a complete change on the character or something hard to accept, with Bridget is different, we don't know if people are gonna accept this change or if it's gonna take over the past image, and we don't know if this change is gonna stick, we don't even know if the character is gonna appear in a future game, that may not be produced.

Maiyau said:

More than half of the art work showed in the link you used doesn't appear here, so i don't think this happenstance is so useful for us. And they're really different, as you yourself pointed out, the majority, two thirds, don't see the two as interchangeable.

Cases like Hibari-kun are more complex, since terms like Newhalf were used as an umbrella during the time of the creation of the series, the same goes to Okama. We use the term Otoko no ko now, because the majority agree that the character, who was created to be a boy for subversion,fits inside of Otokonoko better than it fitted inside the term Newhalf. But there's a lot of space to argue how to properly lable ambiguous characters like that, or if we can even find a proper label for them.
You pointed the problems user want those characters in the Otokonoko tag, and they don't fit inside our idea of Newhalf, so retagging them would generate more problems and muddle the terms, making people get confused regarding their proper usage.

What would those technicality be? A femboy is a boy who's feminine, if we include characters who aren't boys or that don't look like boys in any way, would generate problems and take away from the term.

Ryo case is different, they always had the Otokonoko aspect by what i know, so it wasn't a complete change on the character or something hard to accept, with Bridget is different, we don't know if people are gonna accept this change, and we don't know if this change is gonna stick, we don't even know if the character is gonna appear in a future game, that may not be produced.

Obviously I'm not arguing that we should merge the entire newhalf tag into otoko no ko. There are simply many characters that exist in the borderline between futanari, newhalf, and otoko no ko, and we can only rely on character information to tell us which gender they are exactly (and by extension, which gender they are not). I know this isn't going to generate insurmountable confusion because, as I've said, we already do it all the time. It's apparently not confusing for post #5675621 to be a hetero pic, despite failing all visual indicators of that, and it's not confusing for the very boyish futas above to be identified as girls. "Some newhalves have small chests" is not a very hard pill to swallow in comparison.

Bridget has already appeared in another game as female, and after about a month of arguing, it seems like people have come around to that being true (even if it is unpopular with some, controversial, etc.). I don't think we're likely to backtrack on all that. Ryo's turnaround was about a month, too.

feline_lump said:

Bridget has already appeared in another game as female, and after about a month of arguing, it seems like people have come around to that being true (even if it is unpopular with some, controversial, etc.). I don't think we're likely to backtrack on all that. Ryo's turnaround was about a month, too.

It's not "unpopular" or "controversial", it's just flat out wrong. Bridget may be called a girl and have a girl gender identity, but they're still male.
Ryo is biologically male too, so it makes sense for them to be tagged as 1boy. Bridget should follow.

verybigsaku said:

It's not "unpopular" or "controversial", it's just flat out wrong. Bridget may be called a girl and have a girl gender identity, but they're still male.
Ryo is biologically male too, so it makes sense for them to be tagged as 1boy. Bridget should follow.

That would be relevant if the tag was called 1male, but it's not, and it hasn't been consistently applied that way. Changing the tag system to consistently disregard gender identity would require a lot more changes than just Bridget, as is clear from the examples above.

feline_lump said:

That would be relevant if the tag was called 1male, but it's not, and it hasn't been consistently applied that way. Changing the tag system to consistently disregard gender identity would require a lot more changes than just Bridget, as is clear from the examples above.

Again the description of the 1boy tag is

An image depicting one male character.

Keeping Bridget as 1boy and using transgender or a different tag would make it correct.

Again, we don't interpret that very literally, and doing so would require changes to other tags. Is every newhalf now automatically a boy? Or only the ones that are canonically transgender? Are futas female? Do they get their own counter? Etc.

found this thread while googling. so basically what i'm getting out of this is "tag characters by how they appear, unless they're trans". idk why the fuck guilty gear fans who want to see art of sol getting dicked down by ky have to be subjected to art of a moe trans girl, that helps no one

it's especially ridiculous when we have bridget art up here with art specifically relating to transness, being a girl, etc etc. but the tags still say "male". like why can't we just tag new bridget as female and keep old bridget the same?? thats what happened for testament why is this any different??

ravenmelloowo said:

it's especially ridiculous when we have bridget art up here with art specifically relating to transness, being a girl, etc etc. but the tags still say "male". like why can't we just tag new bridget as female and keep old bridget the same?? thats what happened for testament why is this any different??

Because Bridget is male. Why would they get tagged as female when they were born as a male twin? What does coming out as a girl have to do with becoming female? There's nothing in Strive that says Bridget became female.

verybigsaku said:

Because Bridget is male. Why would they get tagged as female when they were born as a male twin? What does coming out as a girl have to do with becoming female? There's nothing in Strive that says Bridget became female.

If a character says they're a woman, and is called a woman by the game's creators, they're a woman. If that is an issue for nsfw posts then literally just make a category for trans girls with dicks.

The idea of deciding based on "biological sex" makes no sense - it's supposed to be for image organization purposes, but like, having Bridget, who is pretty much female in every regard as far as sfw art goes, be listed as male just fucks with things even more. I thought this site tags based on what it can see? But in a majority of artwork on this site, we can't see a person's sex.

• Keep tagging Bridget as 1boy for the sake of not messing with the whole tagging system again.
• Add a new transgirl_(lore) tag or something similar on post-Strive Bridget art so those complaining about how "tags are misgendering Bridget" are satisfied without affecting art pieces featuring pre-Strive Bridget.
• Reserve the use of 1girl and newhalf for images where Bridget looks like Poison, again, to avoid messing with the already messed up tagging system.

There, everyone gets what they want this way.

feline_lump said:

Obviously I'm not arguing that we should merge the entire newhalf tag into otoko no ko. There are simply many characters that exist in the borderline between futanari, newhalf, and otoko no ko, and we can only rely on character information to tell us which gender they are exactly (and by extension, which gender they are not). I know this isn't going to generate insurmountable confusion because, as I've said, we already do it all the time. It's apparently not confusing for post #5675621 to be a hetero pic, despite failing all visual indicators of that, and it's not confusing for the very boyish futas above to be identified as girls. "Some newhalves have small chests" is not a very hard pill to swallow in comparison.

Bridget has already appeared in another game as female, and after about a month of arguing, it seems like people have come around to that being true (even if it is unpopular with some, controversial, etc.). I don't think we're likely to backtrack on all that. Ryo's turnaround was about a month, too.

As i argued before those are small and rare cases, some authors being daring with the boundaries, it's simply not enough for us to try and approach the two groups in this way.

Appeared in another game, and people complained about their gender in there, and the discussions still exist, with many artists still tagging and drawing them as a boy

ravenmelloowo said:

I thought this site tags based on what it can see? But in a majority of artwork on this site, we can't see a person's sex.

From what I understand, not only is the TWYS rule a bit vague as it is, but you're also not supposed to interpret it literally with no wiggle room. You might make an argument for obscure, unknown original characters, but in the case of well established characters (like Bridget) they don't simply stop being male/female just because they dress up as the opposite and you can't tell their sex at first glance. Take kino_(kino_no_tabi) for instance; she has androgynous looks, always dresses like a man and looks the part in SFW art, but tagging her as 1boy would make absolutely no sense even in the face of TWYS since she's an established female character. That's also why there are tags for otoko_no_ko (which is what Bridget has always been) and reverse_trap. The way I see it, tagging character sex according to what they actually *are* based on available information is simple common sense.

groen90 said:

From what I understand, not only is the TWYS rule a bit vague as it is, but you're also not supposed to interpret it literally with no wiggle room. You might make an argument for obscure, unknown original characters, but in the case of well established characters (like Bridget) they don't simply stop being male/female just because they dress up as the opposite and you can't tell their sex at first glance. Take kino_(kino_no_tabi) for instance; she has androgynous looks, always dresses like a man and looks the part in SFW art, but tagging her as 1boy would make absolutely no sense even in the face of TWYS since she's an established female character. That's also why there are tags for otoko_no_ko (which is what Bridget has always been) and reverse_trap. The way I see it, tagging character sex according to what they actually *are* based on available information is simple common sense.

Oh, so TWYS isnt literal? Cool, so gender Bridget properly. There is no reason not to when a vast majority of the people going onto this site are looking for Bridget as a female character, since that's uh, what she is now. If you really want to you can also just seperate art of Bridget pre-and-post Strive. The site is supposed to be for image categorization but for some reason it seems to have a very weird perspective on accurately categorizing characters that aren't cis

ravenmelloowo said:

Oh, so TWYS isnt literal? Cool, so gender Bridget properly. There is no reason not to when a vast majority of the people going onto this site are looking for Bridget as a female character, since that's uh, what she is now. If you really want to you can also just seperate art of Bridget pre-and-post Strive. The site is supposed to be for image categorization but for some reason it seems to have a very weird perspective on accurately categorizing characters that aren't cis

Where did you get this information? There are still so many art where the characters is intend as a boy, and a lot of people still see the character as a boy, see that a lot of videos with mods of Bridget, come with a lot of people calling them a boy in the comments

Maiyau said:

Where did you get this information? There are still so many art where the characters is intend as a boy, and a lot of people still see the character as a boy, see that a lot of videos with mods of Bridget, come with a lot of people calling them a boy in the comments

- She says "I'm a girl" in the video game.
- The devs confirmed she was a girl in the dev's backyard

Seems as sure as sure can get to me. There are also people who call Luigi a girl, should we start tagging him as a girl?

ravenmelloowo said:

like why can't we just tag new bridget as female and keep old bridget the same?? thats what happened for testament why is this any different??

Because Testament went throught a major redesign to reflect their androgynous look now, while Bridget is just using new clothing.

ravenmelloowo said:

a vast majority of the people going onto this site are looking for Bridget as a female character

Source: "this was once revealed to me in a dream"?

ravenmelloowo said:

a female character, since that's uh, what she is now

"she" still has a male body, unless proven otherwise.

ravenmelloowo said:

If you really want to you can also just seperate art of Bridget pre-and-post Strive.

I get it that you can't be bothered to read the whole thread, but this has already been suggested multiple times. The issue remains in how to deal with sex/gender tags without messing up the current system and/or a number of searches, AND also making people obsessing over this happy. I suggest going back a few pages and have a read, lest we enter another timeloop of discussing the same thing again for the umpteenth time.