Bridget - Guilty Gear Strive

clawyf said:

It is beyond goofy to have rules enforcing tagging images as male focus when they themselves spell out that the subject is a girl
All that this seems to achieve is having a policy where only NSFW or exaggerated proportions are ever going to be tagged as the artist intends

yeah basically. for a site that has around 22% nsfw, there sure is a lot of focus on a character's hypothetical anatomy. i can't see any reason not to tag Bridget as 1girl (IN SFW POSTS) aside from "uhmmm she has a male body therefore male." which is pretty dumb imo. like there's no argument about disrespecting the intent of artists, since that's already happening. TWYS isn't an argument since Bridget looks like a girl physically (unless a bulge is present or something to that nature). the whole yuri/yaoi/hetero argument just seems like a case of confusion to me, which is literally whatever. let people be confused, people aren't going to die if they're confused, just fix any mistags and move on.

also this just popped into my head, but i really really reeeeeally doubt Daisuke is going to say "Bridget went through surgery!!!" in the next story dlc/game. so by danbooru's logic, bridget will always be tagged as 1boy even though she will have been a girl for years at that point. because well, she has a male body!

like, idk what to say anymore lol

My idea is that; since Danbooru follows the "Tag what you see" policy, we should tag a non-bulge or covered male private parts Bridget as 1girl. It's what I SEE Bridget as and when her parts SHOW, we tag her as 1girl + Transgender tag, that way we we satisfy both sides of the argument.

Icewarrior said:

My idea is that; since Danbooru follows the "Tag what you see" policy, we should tag a non-bulge or covered male private parts Bridget as 1girl. It's what I SEE Bridget as and when her parts SHOW, we tag her as 1girl + Transgender tag, that way we we satisfy both sides of the argument.

Bridget isn't the only (now former) femboy character out there, are we gonna start enforcing strict TWYS tag every single otoko no ko image without dick or bulge visible as 1girl now?

Mexiguy said:

Bridget isn't the only (now former) femboy character out there, are we gonna start enforcing strict TWYS tag every single otoko no ko image without dick or bulge visible as 1girl now?

It would be neat if it were as simple as applying "tag what you see" just as we don't tag vampires in posts where a character being a vampire isn't apparent. Somebody searching for otoko no ko isn't just looking for the image; presumably they're looking for an image with the context that the character is an otoko no ko.

A solution could be a better way to categorize characters and search for those categories of characters, which would benefit the site overall. That's beyond the scope of this thread however.

morriganaensland said:

i can't see any reason not to tag Bridget as 1girl (IN SFW POSTS) aside from "uhmmm she has a male body therefore male." which is pretty dumb

How is it dumb if it's objectively true?

morriganaensland said:

let people be confused, people aren't going to die if they're confused, just fix any mistags and move on.

I refuse to believe this is a serious post.

groen90 said:
How is it dumb if it's objectively true?

I'm not saying it's dumb because it's true, i'm saying it's dumb because that's the only "logical" reason people have. which can be seen as transphobic but it's mainly just an issue with the site's tagging system.

I refuse to believe this is a serious post.

i don't see anything to be confused about with ship tags. if we go with the compromise of 1girl in SFW and 1boy in NSFW, that means there's no yaoi in SFW pics and no yuri in NSFW pics. is it stupid? very much so, but i wouldn't say it's confusing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

maybe if the 1girl and 1boy tags were renamed to 1female and 1male there wouldn't be this much of a problem since those tags would now be only biological (and also matching with all of the other female/male tags)

morriganaensland said:

i don't see anything to be confused about with ship tags. if we go with the compromise of 1girl in SFW and 1boy in NSFW, that means there's no yaoi in SFW pics and no yuri in NSFW pics. is it stupid? very much so, but i wouldn't say it's confusing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This point keeps getting repeated but nobody then explains how to deal with all the problems that come with this, the same problems that evazion has pointed out multiple times in this and the previous topic. How do you tag a sfw post with a nsfw variant? What about a picture of Bridget kissing a female or male character? Something doesn't stop being yaoi just because the character is clothed.

nonamethanks said:

This point keeps getting repeated but nobody then explains how to deal with all the problems that come with this, the same problems that evazion has pointed out multiple times in this and the previous topic. How do you tag a sfw post with a nsfw variant? What about a picture of Bridget kissing a female or male character? Something doesn't stop being yaoi just because the character is clothed.

if it was me tagging it, i would just tag the SFW version as yuri/hetero and the NSFW version as hetero/yaoi. again, really stupid, i know. but this is the thing people have to do this if they want a compromise.

think of it like this, if someone were to find a pic of hoshikawa lily and one of the other girls in ZLS with a SFW and NSFW variant (with visible genitalia), how would you tag it?

I would tag both as 1boy, because that's what the character is. We only tag Lily as 1girl because of spoilers, and if one of the child thumbnails show a dick there's no point in adhering to them anymore for that sequence of posts.

well just do that for Bridget too then. I mean, not EVERY SFW strive picture of her is going to be tagged as 1girl, there are still pics that have visible bulges or are tagged as otoko no ko on pixiv or wherever.

nonamethanks said:

I would tag both as 1boy, because that's what the character is. We only tag Lily as 1girl because of spoilers, and if one of the child thumbnails show a dick there's no point in adhering to them anymore for that sequence of posts.

We don't "only" tag her a girl because of spoilers. Even if Lily being trans were established in episode 1, the situation would not be comparable to Bridget. The reason why Bridget is so controversial is because she is a character long assumed to be cis male.

Lily is a girl, and she is also trans. She isn't a boy by any relevant measures except the tagging system.

agglego2 said:

We don't "only" tag her a girl because of spoilers.

forum #152601

Hillside Moose said:
With respect to spoilers, continue tagging Lily as 1girl unless other visual context suggests otherwise.

Nacha said:

forum #152601

To be clear, my point was that the spoiler exemption isn't the sole factor in people wanting to tag the character as female. A similar case was brought up with Hibari Oozara in forum #21120, with people wanting to tag the character as a girl, even though the spoiler exemption wouldn't apply there. No conclusion was reached there, and to act as if tagging sex over gender is clear-cut is misrepresenting the situation I think.

Okay, let's ask the most important question here:

What are the chances of the mods or admins actually changing how we tag Bridget's gender? If someone truly brought up the best argument for tagging 1girl ever, what are the chances of this actually being changed?

I don't think it'll happen, and this whole conversation only makes me believe in this more.

nonamethanks said:

This point keeps getting repeated but nobody then explains how to deal with all the problems that come with this, the same problems that evazion has pointed out multiple times in this and the previous topic. How do you tag a sfw post with a nsfw variant? What about a picture of Bridget kissing a female or male character? Something doesn't stop being yaoi just because the character is clothed.

For a sfw post with a nsfw variant I guess just let both inherit the NSFW version's tags regardless.
For the other problems uhhhhh you're on your own on that, I can't think of solutions that satisfy the site respecting the character's gender while still doing what's convenient for users to just browse with. It's also gonna be annoying trying to + or - tags users want to include or exclude on the fly with the two tag search limit.

nonamethanks said:

I would tag both as 1boy, because that's what the character is. We only tag Lily as 1girl because of spoilers, and if one of the child thumbnails show a dick there's no point in adhering to them anymore for that sequence of posts.

Kind of a weak argument. When does the character become something else? Danbooru policy should not be to say "well the character looks like a girl, acts like a girl, is called a girl, but I feel like it's a boy because I see no naked boobies"
I think it would end up feeling very silly if some newhalf characters are newhalf because they've always been that way, but formerly male characters could never even consider it despite being identical

clawyf said:

I think it would end up feeling very silly if some newhalf characters are newhalf because they've always been that way, but formerly male characters could never even consider it despite being identical

+1

on the topic of newhalf, reading the wiki page says that "Newhalf is a Japanese slang term for a pre-op or non-op male-to-female transexual." does that not describe Bridget? she's a pre-op (or most likely, non-op due to my earlier point of Daisuke probably never saying she transitioned) male-to-female transgender person. newhalfs are tagged as girls in danbooru, why isn't strive Bridget? is it because she doesn't have breasts? are women not women if they don't have breasts????? what is the actual reason?
if the site just wants the tag to be about "totally cis women but they just happen to have a dick instead of a vagina" and ignore the transgender origins of the term, be my guest and specify that.
all i can see this boil down to is "Bridget used to be a boy and I can't get used to her being a girl :((((" like, if a post says otoko no ko, that doesn't mean you have to tag that specific picture as 1girl, but 1girl should be the default (for strive pics).

morriganaensland said:

+1

on the topic of newhalf, reading the wiki page says that "Newhalf is a Japanese slang term for a pre-op or non-op male-to-female transexual." does that not describe Bridget?

newhalf on danbooru is used for futanari without a vagina, because that's what they look like. Pre-op are, by definition, indistinguishable from hetero men as far as their body goes, so we've just tagged them 1boy so far.

nonamethanks said:

newhalf on danbooru is used for futanari without a vagina, because that's what they look like. Pre-op are, by definition, indistinguishable from hetero men as far as their body goes, so we've just tagged them 1boy so far.

Pre-op refers to surgery, in the case of newhalf that isn't necessarily a given. Bridget is pre-transition in many images, but not indistinguishable from a boy. Her body type is very androgynous

sadodere said:

Okay, let's ask the most important question here:

What are the chances of the mods or admins actually changing how we tag Bridget's gender? If someone truly brought up the best argument for tagging 1girl ever, what are the chances of this actually being changed?

I don't think it'll happen, and this whole conversation only makes me believe in this more.

I think you are sadly right, some people go out of their way, even contradicting their own argument... so it might help someone : Some people just go out of their way to justify their action even when they are wrong and nothing supports it besides "I want to". So yeah, take care of yourself and don't go too hard if you can.

Anyway, I'm here to inform people. I think there are some interested people in the subject and it might help them. (And, yeah it concern Bridget too since she is trans you know)
So, there is all this "yeah but biology here, biology that" going on or "but there is a penis so it MUST be a men" or "yeah but the character is XX so it MUST be female" (which is ridiculous on a site where we can't even look at them lol, you see what I mean "going out of their way" ?)

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From a scientific standpoint :
-Gender identity have nothing to do with biology. (And there are some papers asking bigots to stop using biology to justify their transphobia)
-If you really want to go out of your way on this subject, it is possible (but very anti-scientific because really reductive, the subject goes WAY BEYOND "me penis, me male") to say that there is a biological sex for "female" and "male". BUT, you may notice I used "female" and "male", because those are at least kinda biologically "correct" terms (They are not "correct" and still debated right now because the goal is to talk about reproduction and it do be complicated)
-On the other hand, "girl" and "boy" is commonly admitted as a gender identity term. So even there, using "girl" to tag is referring to ones gender.
-Gender identity is ones feeling of belonging in a group. It is a complicated psychological and sociological phenomenon, and is harmful not because ones mind is "corrupted", but because the environement we live in is aggressive towards those people. Not everyone is, but enough that trans people are killed everyday because they are trans. (And it is obviously way bigger for harassment)

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From an art standpoint :
-Why would we care ? Its just images on the internet right ? And to the second point I say yes. Images seen by thousands, if not more, of people ! And we know that this influences our mind. A L-O-T, hey there is a reason we do art since the dawn of humanity. It conveys messages to those experiencing it. And if being inclusive have shown to be good for ones mind, the opposite, meaning being exclusive, harms people. It has to do with what we see and experience in our everyday life, and what is normal or not. And the problem here is : Mods decided that they won't be inclusive and would rather be exclusive. And people will then not see trans people and it won't be normalized, meaning a higher discrimination risk. (And bigots having a place to hide and talk together also, not cool in my book)

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-"Yes but Japan is not like that !". Well yes it isn't... what's the point here ? I mean, I am sorry to put it this way, but even if this site is heavily inspired by Japan "culture", it doesn't mean we have to take the bad too... I mean this is straight bigotery right here and people going "out of their way".

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-"Gender identity is a myth !". Again this is false. In the past year I didn't find any papers that even had something close to this statement, and I always try to prove myself wrong. I mean, the evidences are here.

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-"It is just a recent phenomenon !". It has existed for centuries at least, if we go for the archeology path and a bit of interpretation albeit (but as with everything in archeology, passionating subject, highly recommend), we can say millenials.

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-"But I have known Bridget as a man for years !". Yes. And it will happen in real life too. Trans identity can sometimes take time to appear to ones mind, but when it does, more often than not, studies have shown that it was so evident from the start, I don't have papers on this matter but even as a child.
-However, it has been shown that often trans people take time to transition because when they understand they are trans, all the transphobia appears clearly and depending on the person, it can take times because of transphobia and fear of being hurt.

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That's about it. I don't really think I will come back. I like this quote "It takes at least twice the amount of effort to argue with bigotery than to create one". I think its true.

So, if you really want a solution, here is one :
-Create a "male" and "female" tag. Assign it to visible attributes such as vagina and penis (even if incorrect, do not forget). (It does not bother trans people as much, it does because even science say this is incorrect, but at least its understandable)
-Assign "boy" and "girl" to gender.

Easy to search and not too hard to tag. If sex is not seen, we can either let it empty, or we can assume based on the lore or artist view of the character if you are THAT bothered.

Have a nice day you all.