Bridget (GG Strive) gender

kittey said:

I was thinking of characters that are visually indistinguishable from a boy/girl even with their genitals are (basically) visible, e.g., have a character with breasts and pussy showing but lore says they identify as male, or even something like a character with wide, hairy chest and a bulging crotch canonically identifying as female.

Going with my example of Bridget dressing in female clothing but shoving their bulging crotch into the viewer’s face + identifying as female, would you tag that as otoko_no_ko (male by definition, so ignoring the canonical gender) or reverse trap (female by definition, so ignoring the bulging crotch)?

Ah, I got your post completely wrong. So basically what people are trying to make the transgender tag for but without touching gender count tags?

Sebbafan said:

Btw, it seems that Bridget only comes out as a girl in the bad arcade ending. Is that something to take into consideration?

I haven’t confirmed it myself yet, but I’ve heard that Stive’s in game glossary uses female pronouns for Bridget, making it pretty much canon now. Again I could be wrong since I haven’t had a chance to boot the game up myself.

nonamethanks said:

Ah, I got your post completely wrong. So basically what people are trying to make the transgender tag for but without touching gender count tags?

Yes.

Staying with my example: tagging as 1boy because of the crotch shoved into the viewer’s face, but adding a tag that says “this character is considered male for tagging purposes but identifies as female”.

I think the line between cases like this and cases with standard otoko_no_ko should be disambiguated. In cases like post #5480813 and post #5574738 , where the only way to know the correct tag is to know the character, what determines the border between 1girl and 1boy otoko_no_ko?

Or, more precisely, is a character's nebulous unseen junk what determines the tags, or is it their preferred gender?

To be transparent, I do not believe in any way that images like post #3782399 and post #5573960 should count as girls for tagging purposes, and believe this distinction should only be used when otherwise no determining traits are visible.

The solution I think most viable to this is to tag all characters based off of defining traits first, and then, failing that, gender identity. This causes what I believe to be the least issues on all sides. This policy would mean that say, all images of Astolfo would stay 1boy otoko_no_ko because they identify as a boy, but in cases like this, Bridget is 1girl so long as no bulge or other telling trait is there. This policy solves the post #1786727 issue (consistent with how it is now), the post #3782399 issue (unchanged from current tagging), and would make post #5574738 consistent with previous cases.

Whether a new tag is created to highlight this distinction being made I don't fully care. Nor do I care whether this is enacted upon only Strive images or not. I simply think when nebulous junk and gender identity clash on an image where it's not otherwise apparent, it should go to gender identity.

HoshiAkane said:

I think the line between cases like this and cases with standard otoko_no_ko should be disambiguated. In cases like post #5480813 and post #5574738 , where the only way to know the correct tag is to know the character, what determines the border between 1girl and 1boy otoko_no_ko?

Or, more precisely, is a character's nebulous unseen junk what determines the tags, or is it their preferred gender?

To be transparent, I do not believe in any way that images like post #3782399 and post #5573960 should count as girls for tagging purposes, and believe this distinction should only be used when otherwise no determining traits are visible.

The solution I think most viable to this is to tag all characters based off of defining traits first, and then, failing that, gender identity. This causes what I believe to be the least issues on all sides. This policy would mean that say, all images of Astolfo would stay 1boy otoko_no_ko because they identify as a boy, but in cases like this, Bridget is 1girl so long as no bulge or other telling trait is there. This policy solves the post #1786727 issue (consistent with how it is now), the post #3782399 issue (unchanged from current tagging), and would make post #5574738 consistent with previous cases.

Whether a new tag is created to highlight this distinction being made I don't fully care. Nor do I care whether this is enacted upon only Strive images or not. I simply think when nebulous junk and gender identity clash on an image where it's not otherwise apparent, it should go to gender identity.

I’m down with this.

Wait a minute, the character profile in the official site still says "男の子である". Why were we having this whole debate if it explicitly says that Bridget is a boy? Might as well tag Ladiva as 1girl too if the whole argument is just because of pronouns...

In any case, I have no argument against tagging Bridget's gender based on what it looks like in each post, but I don't want to think about the nightmare that will come out of that regarding Astolfo and everyone else.

nonamethanks said:

Wait a minute, the character profile in the official site still says "男の子である". Why are we having this whole debate if it explicitly says that Bridget is a boy?

This is a reveal that occurs midway through the story, not something that the audience is intended to know from the beginning. Perhaps it could be considered a spoiler in that sense, but all of our discussions about it have been untagged so far...

(For the record: Ladiva's pronouns have always been "he/she" and his/her profile is listed as 1other.)

feline_lump said:

This is a reveal that occurs midway through the story, not something that the audience is intended to know from the beginning. Perhaps it could be considered a spoiler in that sense, but all of our discussions about it have been untagged so far...

I mean, if we tag hoshikawa lily as 1girl because of spoilers (forum #152601), then logic follows that Bridget needs the 1boy tag because of spoilers as well.

Digging more into this mess it also looks like it's the bad ending where he says he's a girl (because it means he's giving in to his village's demands that male twins are evil, so he has to be a she?). In the true ending there's no mention of it.
Maybe it's worth waiting until the dust settles before making this kind of policy change just based on some random guy screaming on twitter.

nonamethanks said:

I mean, if we tag hoshikawa lily as 1girl because of spoilers (forum #152601), then logic follows that Bridget needs the 1boy tag because of spoilers as well.

Digging more into this mess it also looks like it's the bad ending where he says he's a girl (because it means he's giving in to his village's demands that male twins are evil, so he has to be a she?). In the true ending there's no mention of it.
Maybe it's worth waiting until the dust settles before making this kind of policy change just based on some random guy screaming on twitter.

Well, the idea that the exchange isn't canon at all is merely another fan theory. The sites I could find that have included this reveal (EN Wikipedia, EN Wikia, and JP Pixiv) all take the exchange as canon evidence that Bridget now identifies as female. The official English profile also uses careful wording to set up the reveal (which perhaps makes this less of a spoiler as far as our audience is concerned), and Bridget's design newly includes a male-female symbol.

The devs will probably comment on their writing of the character soon, however, similarly to how they confirmed that the new Testament design is agender.

Honestly feel there is so much missed subtext here. Bridget is not trans he does not identify as a woman just they have accepted they are how they are and don't care about proving their masculinity anymore (the crux of their character emotional turmoil previously) and so is fine to be called a girl so both she and he work because again, they've just accepted they are who they are. That doesn't sound like they're trans in the traditional sense to me at all, its just they're at peace with gender as a concept and are fine with either. boy still works then IMO, this just makes a lot more sense with the rest of their character.

I get the wording of the interaction is confusing, I think it might be intentional but the conclusion of them not being a girl or trans but instead just androgynous and not caring anymore makes a lot more sense to their character. Hell you can see it in the physical design, in previous games they had the male symbol to show how important their masculinty was to them, now they have the androgyne symbol, not the male-female one but literally the androgyne one.

moofans said:

Honestly feel there is so much missed subtext here. Bridget is not trans he does not identify as a woman just they have accepted they are how they are and don't care about proving their masculinity anymore (the crux of their character emotional turmoil previously) and so is fine to be called a girl so both she and he work because again, they've just accepted they are who they are. That doesn't sound like they're trans in the traditional sense to me at all, its just they're at peace with gender as a concept and are fine with either. boy still works then IMO, this just makes a lot more sense with the rest of their character.

Pretty sure the lore is that she tried to socially transition back to being male, realised how much she hated it, and decided to be a woman for her own sake and not because of her village's superstition around same-sex twins

I understand the whole "tag what you see" mindset, and I also understand there are exceptions for one reason or another (Astolfo and other otokonoko) based on what we know. However, if we look at Bridget and SEE a girl and we also KNOW she's a girl, and it's art where there's no genitals depicted, what exactly is the point of tagging that 1boy? Especially lately, her tag is almost exclusively 1boy even when an outside observer would not hesitate to call the artwork "a depiction of a girl".

Hello !
Hope you all have a nice day !

I'm just here to add some arguments :
-Bridget is a girl in the story and in official website, lore. That's. It. She is a girl. No debate here.
-I understand what you mean by "Yeah but its about what we see !". But still, just let's be clear here. This is transphobic. Sexual attributes are not the same as gender, saying otherwise is at least a bit transphobic. (That's... litteraly why we have the tags 'penis' and 'vagina'... I mean come on...)
-I know it goes along the lines of "but people are not used to this !"... yes indeed... and isn't that sad ? You know... to be categorized as something you are NOT, and keeping this representation... Just try imagine how hurtful it is, because I sure am hurt as hell. Just please, at least consider it, and know that by doing it you are hurting people now, AND in the future. We need good representation about gender, and we should think about it at some point.

Linking it with : Calling out "nonamethanks". He is transphobic and just overall seems toxic :
-Says "this is for a majority of people, this is not for snowflakes !". First, are you the majority ? Does it look like everybody agrees with you ? No and no again. Second, come on... snowflakes as an insult ? Like... I don't even know what to say to you. Oh, I just lied, I know. "We are here to have arguments !", nice argument you have there about being a "snowflake". (I don't know if I can slur but, by the way "snowflake" as an argument just mean you are a mean person who don't care about hurting people, which is... not very nice of you let's say.)
-Is that me or he simply dont read arguments and goes with what he has engraved in his mind ?

I wish you all the best day (yes even nonamethanks) !

I'm hearing that Bridget only claims to be female in the game's Bad Ending and in a good one says basically says "I'm a guy", also some claims of translator fuckery.

...Why don't we just wait a bit first before making any changes? Regardless of how you feel, if further info invalidates whatever decision is made then we'll just end up with a bunch of stuff to undo.

Also,

Yoto_tata said:
words

Snowflake is not a slur, it's a movie reference and while it is used as an insult, it's also a reminder that we're all sacks of decaying flesh no matter what we think of ourselves.

Traze said:

I'm hearing that Bridget only claims to be female in the game's Bad Ending and in a good one says basically says "I'm a guy", also some claims of translator fuckery.

...Why don't we just wait a bit first before making any changes? Regardless of how you feel, if further info invalidates whatever decision is made then we'll just end up with a bunch of stuff to undo.

Also,

Snowflake is not a slur, it's a movie reference and while it is used as an insult, it's also a reminder that we're all sacks of decaying flesh no matter what we think of ourselves.

Hey, thanks for the reply !

But I am really sorry to say that, even if this is a reference, it doesn't delete the meaning behind those words... I hope we are okay with this ?
This is mainly used against SOME people, most often the same, those that express their feelings and say that they are hurt or depressed. You know, the bad stuff that very one of us experience.
And, thus is just transmitting toxic comportement, something like : "yeah, you are just oversensitive, you should just calm down ! It's gonna be okay !". Yeah, you can say that. Or you could, I don't know, say "Sorry for hurting you ! This was not the intention !" like a nice person and try to understand why it happened in the first place and don't make it happen a second time because... I don't think people want to hurt others right ?

Edit: Yeah, It's too long sorry. To make it short : "snowflake" has a profound connotation behind meaning "You are just sensible when I am not". Maybe this was not the goal here, then I am indeed sorry. Still "snowflake" have a heavy meaning so I don't think we should use this word.

Have a nice day <3

testingmmmmm said:

BUR #11639 has been rejected.

mass update guilty_gear_strive ai:1girl -ai:1boy bridget_(guilty_gear) 1boy solo -penis -bulge -> 1girl -1boy

Family friendly easy solution

I second this. Creating a trans_girl tag is fine too.

Traze said:

Snowflake is not a slur, it's a movie reference and while it is used as an insult, it's also a reminder that we're all sacks of decaying flesh no matter what we think of ourselves.

Let's be real here, the only people who use "snowflake" are right-wing shitlords trying to hide their toxicity.

punished_K said:

Let's be real here, the only people who use "snowflake" are right-wing shitlords trying to hide their toxicity.

Okay... I admit, this is very true and made me laugh a little.

punished_K said:

Let's be real here, the only people who use "snowflake" are right-wing shitlords trying to hide their toxicity.

God, thanks to use those sweet words. I needed those bro/sis, I love you (not okay with violence but you know... the 1000th time a day you read "YOU ARE SNOWFLAKES" after they literally harassed you all day long is... yeah, not funny. "-1/10, would not recommend".)

Edit: Yeah my brain just melted sorry, you were nice AND honest. A true Hero-ine. Have the best year ever !

When you're all done circlejerking and patting each other in the back because you're better than everyone else, you're free to start posting actual arguments, otherwise this thread will be locked.