Bridget (GG Strive) gender

baconmeh2 said:

I didn't read shit here, but what if you just made a tag for Guilty Gear Strive's Bridget? It'd be like how you separate joseph_joestar and joseph_joestar_(young)

I'm just now realizing I don't actually know why we separated him like that, instead of just using the copyright tags to distinguish the designs like we do with any other character. He has a distinct design in every part he appears in, adding battle tendency/stardust crusaders/diamond wa kudakenai to a joseph joestar search should find exactly which appearance you wanted. The only one of his tags that needs to exist is joseph joestar (tequila) assuming joseph_joestar crossdressing isn't sufficient.

Unlike Joseph, Bridget doesn't really look any different in Strive, just a different outfit. Making a separate character tag just to avoid any real solutions to a problem that's been building for years doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

blindVigil said:

I'm just now realizing I don't actually know why we separated him like that, instead of just using the copyright tags to distinguish the designs like we do with any other character. He has a distinct design in every part he appears in, adding battle tendency/stardust crusaders/diamond wa kudakenai to a joseph joestar search should find exactly which appearance you wanted. The only one of his tags that needs to exist is joseph joestar (tequila) assuming joseph_joestar crossdressing isn't sufficient.

It's separated like that for multiple reasons. That's how the character is referred to by mostly everyone who is into Jojo: Young Joseph/Old Joseph/Tequila Joseph. And there are posts that might feature the Young Joseph design but have nothing to do with Battle Tendency at all, like pool #7242 or post #2166492 for example. Or even posts where Old Joseph is in the tequila disguise. It's objectively more efficient for searchbility having Joseph's umbrella tag.

About Bridget, I don't see too much of a problem if the Strive design gets tagged as 1girl (if there's no bulge or exposed genitals), but there will probably be lots of edit wars.

Personally I'm strongly in favor of the creation of proper tags for trans characters and/or the expansion of transgender to use for characters that are trans in general. Trans characters exist, people are going to keep making them, and the issue isn't going to just disappear under the rug for people who want a dismissive genital-based solution. If people don't want to see trans characters, they can blacklist them.

testingmmmmm said:

The only reason we are considering this is because the planets have aligned and now her canon gender matches her character design.

Does it? I thought the character still had a penis, and the whole debate is because now they use female pronouns.

In any case, I don't have a good solution for this issue. otoko no ko is one of those tags were we actually tag what we know rather than what we see, but on the other hand it's a fetish and people ARE looking for crossdressing men who would pass as women when they're searching for this tag. Further fragmenting the gender tags seems like the worse option because it would just mean we're tagging a different thing that's not in the picture, instead of actually fixing the problem of canon tagging.

Look at post #5473900's tagging history and you'll see what I mean. Do we want to remove random obviously women from 1girl and move them to 1transboy or something just because canon says so? That's retarded.

nonamethanks said:
Does it? I thought the character still had a penis, and the whole debate is because now they use female pronouns.

[...]

Do we want to remove random obviously women from 1girl and move them to 1transboy or something just because canon says so? That's retarded.

It seriously comes off like you just want to be transphobic. I'm out.

I don't want to touch the SFW side of things, but what about the nsfw part when penis is shown? Does that still count as 1boy or what?

ziin1234 said:

I don't want to touch the SFW side of things, but what about the nsfw part when penis is shown? Does that still count as 1boy or what?

Nothing has been decided so far, but yes, this is more about the SFW part of things. If there's any hint of genitals just tag what you see.

user_15128 said:

It seriously comes off like you just want to be transphobic. I'm out.

I don’t want to assume they’re being transphobic themselves, but it does come off as giving in to transphobes. It’s essentially saying “Gee, we’d love to do trans people a solid, but if we do then all the transphobes will get angry at us so sorry”. Is that really the message we want to get across? Are we just going to say it’s ok to be transphobic here?

Yes, the site is built for the majority of users, not for a subset of special snowflakes who think insulting the opposite side of an argument means they're winning. Drop the name-calling and stick to actual arguments.

alfredo_jones said:

I don’t want to assume they’re being transphobic themselves, but it does come off as giving in to transphobes. It’s essentially saying “Gee, we’d love to do trans people a solid, but if we do then all the transphobes will get angry at us so sorry”. Is that really the message we want to get across? Are we just going to say it’s ok to be transphobic here?

We're trying to figure out how, if possible, to update our tagging policies in a way that doesn't overcomplicate a user's ability to search for visually (keyword there) simple things. Being trangender is almost never visually identifiable. From a purely tagging perspective, it's extraneous information that's rarely present in a picture unless it's a focal point of the image.

Absolutely no one has said anything about transphobes being angry except for the people accusing others of transphobia.

blindVigil said:

We're trying to figure out how, if possible, to update our tagging policies in a way that doesn't overcomplicate a user's ability to search for visually (keyword there) simple things. Being trangender is almost never visually identifiable. From a purely tagging perspective, it's extraneous information that's rarely present in a picture unless it's a focal point of the image.

Absolutely no one has said anything about transphobes being angry except for the people accusing others of transphobia.

I understand where you’re coming from and I’m in no way accusing anyone of being transphobic. I just wanted to point out that there could be unintended side effects depending on how we choose to go about this.

nonamethanks said:

Does it? I thought the character still had a penis, and the whole debate is because now they use female pronouns.

In any case, I don't have a good solution for this issue. otoko no ko is one of those tags were we actually tag what we know rather than what we see, but on the other hand it's a fetish and people ARE looking for crossdressing men who would pass as women when they're searching for this tag. Further fragmenting the gender tags seems like the worse option because it would just mean we're tagging a different thing that's not in the picture, instead of actually fixing the problem of canon tagging.

Look at post #5473900's tagging history and you'll see what I mean. Do we want to remove random obviously women from 1girl and move them to 1transboy or something just because canon says so? That's retarded.

Nobody knows if Bridget has a penis in Strive. But it shouldn't matter if she does.

Strive Bridget says she's a girl.

If that offends you, just pretend she's flat chested.

It matters if someone is beating their meat to yuri and they find post #3782399 because some genius decided that they're both women, or they're searching for 1girl seductive_smile and find post #5573960.
If other people's sexual preferences offend you, feel free to make your own site where there is no tagging logic and everything goes.

nonamethanks said:

It matters if someone is beating their meat to yuri and they find post #3782399 because some genius decided that they're both women, or they're searching for 1girl seductive_smile and find post #5573960.
If other people's sexual preferences offend you, feel free to make your own site where there is no tagging logic and everything goes.

Ah, I see we're going with "why don't you leave and make your own site?" now.

GG

nonamethanks said:

It matters if someone is beating their meat to yuri and they find post #3782399 because some genius decided that they're both women, or they're searching for 1girl seductive_smile and find post #5573960.
If other people's sexual preferences offend you, feel free to make your own site where there is no tagging logic and everything goes.

Isn’t this what we have blacklists for?

Btw, it seems that Bridget only comes out as a girl in the bad arcade ending. Is that something to take into consideration?

alfredo_jones said:

Isn’t this what we have blacklists for?

What tag would you blacklist, though?

Sebbafan said:

Btw, it seems that Bridget only comes out as a girl in the bad arcade ending. Is that something to take into consideration?

No, that doesn’t change the character’s background/lore, which is what this is about.

 
We’re an image gallery and images are mostly visual, which is why “tag what you see” works well most of the time. Most of our userbase also expects to get results that look like what they searched for. However, a probably small but vocal part of our userbase also want to do the probably ethically correct thing of tagging characters the way they identify, which is the exact opposite of what the aforementioned majority expects. Unfortunately, that issue can’t be ignores, which becomes very obvious if you’re watching certain incorrect tag combinations. It’s not very fun to switch on your PC and be greeted with another 100 posts tagged 1girl 1boy solo since the day before because some user looked at a bunch of thumbnails and thought either

• “This character looks obviously (fe)male but is not tagged 1girl/1boy. Let me fix that.” or
• “This character identifies as boy/girl but is not tagged as such. Let me fix that.”

Especially with the surging popularity of otoko no ko characters in recent years, ignoring the problem is not sustainable in the long run.

Considering that most of our userbase can only tell a character’s gender visually and expects to get exactly what they searched for, I’m inclined to stay with the visual approach to avoid things like the examples given by nonamethanks:

It matters if someone is beating their meat to yuri and they find post #3782399 because some genius decided that they're both women, or they're searching for 1girl seductive_smile and find post #5573960.

But we also need some kind of tag(s) that basically says “yeah, we know the boy/girl tag is technically incorrect, but that’s what works best for an image gallery like this”. This would also give users the ability to search for characters that are visually indistinguishable from a boy/girl but identify differently. I considered something like female presenting male/male presenting female but that’s generally for clothing and won’t help with cases like Bridget dressing in female clothing but shoving their bulging crotch into the viewer’s face. Suggestions for tags welcome.

kittey said:

But we also need some kind of tag(s) that basically says “yeah, we know the boy/girl tag is technically incorrect, but that’s what works best for an image gallery like this”. This would also give users the ability to search for characters that are visually indistinguishable from a boy/girl but identify differently. I considered something like female presenting male/male presenting female but that’s generally for clothing and won’t help with cases like Bridget dressing in female clothing but shoving their bulging crotch into the viewer’s face. Suggestions for tags welcome.

Isn't that just otoko no ko/reverse_trap? I suppose it is distinguishable if they're naked/show covered genitals, but if we end up making those tags they would just be the equivalent of otoko_no_ko rating:g/reverse_trap rating:g.

People have already suggested three different solutions thus far:

• Use the character's canon gender only on SFW posts where they are visually indistinct.
• Create *transgirl and *transboy counter tags.
• Create a single blanket transgender tag, possibly reworking transgender to fit this.

All of these solutions will either avoid newly showing NSFW posts to people entirely or create simple options for people to blacklist. It would also be helpful to have options for people who actually want to search for this content.

nonamethanks said:

Isn't that just otoko no ko/reverse_trap? I suppose it is distinguishable if they're naked/show covered genitals, but if we end up making those tags they would just be the equivalent of otoko_no_ko rating:g/reverse_trap rating:g.

I was thinking of characters that are visually indistinguishable from a boy/girl even with their genitals are (basically) visible, e.g., have a character with breasts and pussy showing but lore says they identify as male, or even something like a character with wide, hairy chest and a bulging crotch canonically identifying as female.

Going with my example of Bridget dressing in female clothing but shoving their bulging crotch into the viewer’s face + identifying as female, would you tag that as 1boy otoko_no_ko (ignoring the canonical gender) or 1girl reverse_trap (ignoring the bulging crotch)?