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Artoria Pendragon Standardization

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blindVigil

BUR #7444 has been rejected.

create alias saber -> artoria_pendragon_(fate/stay_night)
create alias saber_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_alter)_(fate)
create alias saber_lily -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_lily)_(fate)

Previous/Related threads: topic #19339 topic #19344 topic #17356 As well as probably a dozen more. Hopefully this will be the last.

"Saber" is ambiguous, both inside and outside of Fate. It's unintuitive for searching, where the original Sabers don't even show up with the rest of her variants in autocorrect, but do show up next to multiple Nero aliases.

  • (Fate/Stay_Night) qualifier to separate the most basic form from the parent tag.
  • (Saber_Alter) qualifier because, unlike most servants, Artoria has multiple Alters, which themselves have their own variants. Just (Alter) feels too easy to be misconstrued as a parent tag for all of them, and otherwise just isn't clear at a glance who specifically it's for, which will only get worse as they inevitably release more Artoria Alters.
  • (Saber_Lily) qualifier mostly for safety, as while there's only one Artoria Lily now, nothing's stopping them from releasing more, leading to the same potential problems the Alters have.
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blindVigil

Astolfo said:

One of those cases where there are several options that could work; I think they could live as (alter)_(fate/stay_night) and just _(lily)_(fate), but overall this functions well enough and is consistent enough.

My understanding of the situation is that so many Fate characters appear in multiple medias, and all of them eventually show up in FGO in some form, that it's basically a Touhou Situation where it's preferable to just tag them (fate) unless it's necessary to do otherwise, as well as just wanting shorter tags. The main reason we've gone back on this for some characters is because of conflict created when we did away with the (all) qualifiers. Saber Alter doesn't have this conflict, so (fate) is preferable and as consistent as Fate tags can hope to be.

Also, we should probably handle Santa Alter, Saber Lion and Sader as well.

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Astolfo

Yeah, that's fair - like I said, I can see valid reasons to go either way; you could say that "other Artoria Alters exist" is a conflict of some kind that justifies _(fate/stay_night) but at the same time it's probably easier for everyone to just have _(fate) as much as possible.

Santa Alter -> I'm 99% certain in game she's called "AltriaArtoria Pendragon (Santa Alter)" so artoria_pendragon_(santa_alter)_(fate) works as a tag, her class doesn't matter here (unlike swimsuits where it's a necessary qualifier).

Also yes and yes for Sader and Saber Lion, I don't see any reason for those not to be fine.

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blindVigil

nonamethanks said:

I think it's stupid to change sader just for the sake of it when it's a fan-made name.

I don't really disagree, but no one has said anything about it. I'm fine with removing it if enough people are against that.

If the other two are fine, I'll give Sader her own BUR, and I'll be fine with whatever results from that.

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Astolfo

Yeah Sader can stay as it is too. I just brought it up because I've seen numerous cases of unambiguous one word tags get qualified for the sake of either consistency or "potential ambiguity" but it can definitely stay as is.

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evazion

Consider all the Artorias:

I feel like we're overthinking this. Not everything can easily fit into the Artoria Pendragon (X) (Fate) format. I doubt people would want to have Artoria Pendragon (Mysterious Heroine X) (Fate), for example. At a certain point you have to accept that Fate is an inconsistent franchise so not all of our tags are going to be perfectly consistent either.

My issue with Artoria Pendragon (Fate/stay night) is that Saber includes alternate outfits from Fate/Zero, Fate/Hollow Ataraxia, and Fate/Extra. So right away you have to explain that even though the tag is called Artoria Pendragon (Fate/stay night), it's not limited to Fate/stay night and not every post with it should be tagged Fate/stay night. Saber isn't great but Artoria Pendragon (Fate/stay night) isn't without its own problems.

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blindVigil

Would reversing it to an artoria_pendragon_(fate/stay_night) -> saber utility alias be better, then? Because I still feel that it's incredibly silly that THE Artoria Pendragon, the first to be added to FGO, the current biggest entry point for new fans to the series, doesn't even show up when you type "Artoria" into the search bar.

Saber, Saber Alter, Santa Alter, and Saber Lily are really the only one's I'm interested in, since as far as I know, they're all called "Artoria Pendragon" in FGO. I'm not interested in doing anything to the Mysterious Heroine offshoots, since I'm pretty sure that's what they're called in all of their appearances. Sader is a fan name, so there's no reason to mess with it, and unless Saber Lion is called something else in official appearances, it can stay as is as well.

How much worse can the copyright tagging for Fate really get? It already appears completely random, characters like Mordred (fate/apocrypha) being tagged Fate/apocrypha, Fate/grand_order, or neither, depending on the whims of the uploader.

NNescio said:

Good point, changing vote. Either Saber_(Fate) or Artoria_Pendragon_(Saber)_(Fate) then?

I'm totally fine with Artoria_Pendragon_(saber)_(fate) but I was sure we had already tried that and too many people were against it.

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blindVigil said:

BUR #7449 has been rejected.

create alias santa_alter -> artoria_pendragon_(santa_alter)_(fate)
create alias saber_lion -> artoria_pendragon_(saber_lion)_(fate)

Additional tags to change, as per above.

I support the santa alter change, but i'm unsure about saber lion.

Astolfo said:

Oh, I also remembered Master Artoria is a thing too, hahaaaa. Stay as it is? Change to Artoria_Pendragon_(Master)_(Fate)?

Can't we leave weird offshoots like those two and, to a lesser extent since it's a third party, sader, like that?
I think it would be akin to ex-keine or ex-rumia, everyone knows who they are, no need to overthink it.

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