Newhalf implying Futanari

BUR #6345 has been rejected.

remove implication newhalf -> futanari

"Newhalf" has always been a term that has referred to transsexuals specifically. "Transsexual" specifically means that the person has changed or is changing their sex. Futanari are considered their own sex that naturally exist in pretty much any "canon" that has them.

I understand that this would make it a bit more frustrating for people to blacklist since they would have to blacklist at least 2 tags instead of 1 to avoid girls with penises, but I don't believe that should be used as an excuse. By falsely equating the 2 tags to help people blacklist any and all pictures of--essentially--people with both breasts and penises, it litters the futanari tag for people that want to search for that specifically. Searching futanari -newhalf wastes a search term needlessly and falsely when basic users only have 2 search terms to begin with.

Please don't lock this thread claiming it should be part of the tagging irl transgender thread as I was specifically told to make a new thread for this topic if I wanted to make this vote.

+1, based on recent issues and discussions this implication is causing.

Prior threads:

topic #17369
topic #19046

evazion's latest stance:

forum #191931

I'm not sure whether this ruling is "hard" enough to preclude reopening this vote in the first place, but for what it's worth, I am not aware of anyone specifically complaining about having to blacklist newhalf in the 10+ years it was not implicated. The very closest I can find outside of these threads is the conversation on post #2819550. Though evidence to the contrary is welcome.

To quote mongirlfan on the other thread: "Futanari are girls that magically grew a dick, while Newhalf are boys that grew boobs."
The problem is that the vast, vast majority of pics tagged newhalf are not in fact "boys that grew boobs" but rather "girls who grew both a penis and a pair of testicles (and may or not may not have lost their vagina in the process).
Most people simply use newhalf to mean "futa with balls and no visible pussy" so separating newhalf from futa would first require massive gardening if we really want newhalf to be faithful to its real-life definition. By that point it might be more practical to simply nuke the tag when it causes more problems than it's worth it.

I don't want to get tangled into this discussion, i just want to propose a solution that could please both sides.
What about something like:
Futanari -> futa_without_balls
Newhalf -> futa_with_balls
And turn futanari into an umbrella tag that encompasses with balls, with vagina, and with both balls and vagina?

Lobuttomize said:

I understand that this would make it a bit more frustrating for people to blacklist since they would have to blacklist at least 2 tags instead of 1 to avoid girls with penises, but I don't believe that should be used as an excuse.

Personally speaking, "newhalf" is a confusing and not a particularly intuitive tag name. I doubt people who just casually use Danbooru would even learn of such a tag. They would probably be confused on why the blacklist feature isn't working.
(For reference, I learnt it through the multiple discussions on the forums)

Username_Hidden said:

What about something like:
Futanari -> futa_without_balls
Newhalf -> futa_with_balls
And turn futanari into an umbrella tag that encompasses with balls, with vagina, and with both balls and vagina?

Newhalves don't have a pussy, so that's never going to work. We have full-package futanari for that reason.

The point stands that for every single post where a newhalf is facing the viewer you have to rely on canon to know the character has a vagina or not, because they're visually indistinguishable from a futanari.

Removing this implication will just make it even worse like it was before, where people kept reverting each other because of random artists suddenly deciding that their OC is one or the other, despite not changing the design one bit.

Username_Hidden said:

I don't want to get tangled into this discussion, i just want to propose a solution that could please both sides.
What about something like:
Futanari -> futa_without_balls
Newhalf -> futa_with_balls
And turn futanari into an umbrella tag that encompasses with balls, with vagina, and with both balls and vagina?

Personally speaking, "newhalf" is a confusing and not a particularly intuitive tag name. I doubt people who just casually use Danbooru would even learn of such a tag. They would probably be confused on why the blacklist feature isn't working.
(For reference, I learnt it through the multiple discussions on the forums)

I was thinking it could be listed as a "similar tag" or something in the futanari wiki

Absolutely +1.
I'm an avid futanari enjoyer and I do not like this equation between my fantasy and transgenderism, a real life thing. It's uncomfortable and not what I come here for.

Username Hidden said:

Personally speaking, "newhalf" is a confusing and not a particularly intuitive tag name. I doubt people who just casually use Danbooru would even learn of such a tag. They would probably be confused on why the blacklist feature isn't working.
(For reference, I learnt it through the multiple discussions on the forums)

Wait, what does this refer to?

TheGoodRrat said:

Absolutely +1.
I'm an avid futanari enjoyer and I do not like this equation between my fantasy and transgenderism, a real life thing. It's uncomfortable and not what I come here for.

Wait, what does this refer to?

If we separate Newhalf from Futanari there are going to be tons of people who had previously been filtering futanari results getting smacked with pictures that to them look functionally no different from what's on their blacklist and possibly trying to add the tag.

Elfaleon said:

If we separate Newhalf from Futanari there are going to be tons of people who had previously been filtering futanari results getting smacked with pictures that to them look functionally no different from what's on their blacklist and possibly trying to add the tag.

This is why the dickgirl solution that was proposed before would be the best of both worlds IMO. It allows people who don't want to see any of it to blacklist both tags at once (and it's rather intuitive for them), it's only one search for people who want to see both and one search with no newhalf for futanari-only people like me. What were the arguments against that solution?

To repeat myself twice:
I think the whole "magically grew a dick" line is being focused on too much. This is why it was removed from the wiki. It does not matter what the character was born. What matters is what is in the individual image.

It feels like the issue people have with it isn't tag usability or anything to do with the site, but an issue with nomenclature and/or some form of politics.

TheGoodRrat said:
I'm an avid futanari enjoyer and I do not like this equation between my fantasy and transgenderism, a real life thing. It's uncomfortable and not what I come here for.

And this quote right here absolutely proves that it is not a matter of tag usability to the supporters of this BUR. It's a matter of outside politics and naming convention.

Newhalf is currently the tag being used for futa with no pussy. Full stop. On Danbooru, it has nothing to do with trans people. If the issue you take with the tag is political or "newhalf means something specific on Wikipedia", the solution is not to deimplicate it.

Veradux said:

Newhalf is currently the tag being used for futa with no pussy. Full stop. On Danbooru, it has nothing to do with trans people. If the issue you take with the tag is political or "newhalf means something specific on Wikipedia", the solution is not to deimplicate it.

Then perhaps removing the explanation from the wiki:

A Japanese slang term for a pre-op or non-op male-to-female transexual. Also known as "shemale" (シーメール).
The word "newhalf" was originally used for referring a male who had begun to transition to female but kept her lower body the same; literally a "new half".

Would help. Even if that's completely factual, this makes it seem like a "political" tag rather than a purely visual one and is the main reason why I dislike the tag.

Then the question becomes: do we want to go the way of e621 and start using a terrible and obscure name like "gynomorph" that has no relation to real life to avoid triggering people on both sides? Because that's about the only way this "controversy" can end, and it's a terrible solution.
Both sides will be angry but at least they'll be angry at the same thing instead of at each other.

Either that, or people man up and stop getting angry at words.

The biggest problem with separating them is that if we tag what we see, there's a very, very large number of actual futanari art that will become newhalf, because the vagina just isn't visible in a lot of them. Futanari is the default assumption because it's vastly more common.

I don't think the people arguing in in favor of newhalf being completely separate would be happy with a huge swath of futanari art suddenly showing up there just because of an unfortunate camera angle.

I don't think newhalf is a particularly good tag unless it's redefined to be tagged on things that "would be futa except that we can see explicitly that there's no vagina."

kozaki.saya said:

The biggest problem with separating them is that if we tag what we see, there's a very, very large number of actual futanari art that will become newhalf, because the vagina just isn't visible in a lot of them. Futanari is the default assumption because it's vastly more common.

I don't think the people arguing in in favor of newhalf being completely separate would be happy with a huge swath of futanari art suddenly showing up there just because of an unfortunate camera angle.

I don't think newhalf is a particularly good tag unless it's redefined to be tagged on things that "would be futa except that we can see explicitly that there's no vagina."

I also don't think newhalf is a good tag because I think it requires more knowledge than what you get from a picture. Futanari should be seen as an assumed sex if the character has [female] breasts and male genitalia, testicles or not. Tagging by sex should be male/female/futanari/reverse futa or whatever it's called on here/transsex, with transsex being the one requiring some context in the image to tag it as such.

Not to sound accusatory, but I'm curious; how many of the people that voted on this actually like futanari?

@Lobuttomize said:

Not to sound accusatory, but I'm curious; how many of the people that voted on this actually like futanari?

I like futanari, but the fewer genitalia visible, the better; ideally zero. I would prefer newhalf to be nuked and to just use futanari -pussy instead. I downvoted because although the first paragraph is somewhat true, I disagree because it's been in use in the JP art community for over 11 years to refer to more than just "trans women"; language evolves, and a new Wiktionary definition should be added appropriately; it wouldn't make sense to rename the tag if it were kept unless it were more plain to understand. I also believe over 99% of futanari artwork is untaggable newhalf due to the angle usually making it ambiguous, further reinforcing why I think being able to search for newhalf is almost useless.

Lobuttomize said:

I also don't think newhalf is a good tag because I think it requires more knowledge than what you get from a picture. Futanari should be seen as an assumed sex if the character has [female] breasts and male genitalia, testicles or not. Tagging by sex should be male/female/futanari/reverse futa or whatever it's called on here/transsex, with transsex being the one requiring some context in the image to tag it as such.

Not to sound accusatory, but I'm curious; how many of the people that voted on this actually like futanari?

I haven't voted yet, but I *really* like futa stuff, and I kinda like the "newhalf" stuff (aesthetically, I don't have a dog in the game as to any other associations it has) too. But as e? said, currently the only usable definition we have for newhalf that doesn't involve divining information from elsewhere is "futanari -pussy".

kozaki.saya said:

The biggest problem with separating them is that if we tag what we see, there's a very, very large number of actual futanari art that will become newhalf, because the vagina just isn't visible in a lot of them. Futanari is the default assumption because it's vastly more common.

I don't think the people arguing in in favor of newhalf being completely separate would be happy with a huge swath of futanari art suddenly showing up there just because of an unfortunate camera angle.

I don't think newhalf is a particularly good tag unless it's redefined to be tagged on things that "would be futa except that we can see explicitly that there's no vagina."

You're looking at it backwards. Futanari should be the default tag and newhalf should be applied when you can verify that there's no vagina. Which you say at the end anyway. That's how things used to work.

Frankly I feel that the motivation for this change was ridiculous, arguing that because people blacklist futanari that newhalf should be lumped under it so they automatically blacklist that too at the expense of accurate tagging. Now that this implication has been made things have been made unnecessarily convoluted, especially when it comes to something like having a newhalf fucking a man in an image, which gets tagged as futanari due to the implication, and so you get posts like post #2421577 where it's tagged both futa_with_male and newhalf_with_male at the same time, which makes no sense at all. Meanwhile post #4517443 is tagged both newhalf and futanari yet only gets the newhalf_with_male tag, despite having the same content. Never mind that Felix is just a crossdresser and they're tagged as newhalf there because the artist drew them with breasts, making it even sillier for it to be tagged futanari. Oh, and Felix's image is also tagged as otoko_no_ko at the same time, so the whole thing is a mess of contradictory tags because no one seems to understand what to tag things as anymore. I don't know why everything had to become so damn convoluted for the sake of not causing an inconvenience to the people who don't want to see futanari images yet find adding the newhalf tag to their blacklist as well too arduous a task.
Hell, let's also throw post #232431 in there too, since it's got a futanari fucking a newhalf in it. Searching "newhalf futanari" won't do you any good anymore since the implication was made, so the only way to find a post with this content is to search for futa_with_newhalf and hope it got tagged as such. And in the reverse, if you wanted to search for futanari content without newhalf content, you have to now specify "futanari -newhalf", whereas if you want to search for newhalf content without futanari content, you can't search for "newhalf -futanari" anymore, instead you would have to search for the wholly unintuitive "newhalf -futa_with_newhalf" combination. Surely this all makes sense, right?
Also, here's a post of shidou_mariya being tagged not just as otoko_no_ko but also as newhalf and thus futanari despite that Mariya is a crossdressing guy who pads his bra and thus should not be considered a newhalf. The newhalf tag was added years ago and was already an issue that went unfixed, but with the implication being created it also got futanari added to it recently which made it wrong on another account. I had a laugh when I saw lolin86's 12 year old comment there.

The point of all this is that mistagging is absolutely rampant in regards to these tags and the change to make newhalf tied to futanari only creates further confusion and nonsense tag combinations like those above, and some of those nonsense tag combinations have no real solutions if the tag implication remains. Are people going to insist that futanari should just mean "looks feminine but with a penis" instead of "has both a penis and vagina"? Then newhalf_with_male and futa_with_male become completely redundant, since the latter is no longer dictating that there's a vagina involved like it used to. If one wants to keep the meaning of futa_with_male separate to newhalf_with_male by specifying that the futa defined here has a vagina, then suddenly the futa_with_male tag has a different definition of futa to the actual futanari tag since its revision. This stuff is a nonsensical tagging nightmare now and that's before even bringing gender identity politics into it as seen in other threads.

SSJG said:

Most people simply use newhalf to mean "futa with balls and no visible pussy" so separating newhalf from futa would first require massive gardening if we really want newhalf to be faithful to its real-life definition. By that point it might be more practical to simply nuke the tag when it causes more problems than it's worth it.

Let's be real here, much of the problem is because this tag implication was made in the first place, and now all the tags that got fucked up as a result of it have to be unfucked. I can't fathom how these problems weren't foreseen before the change was made.

Lobuttomize said:

Not to sound accusatory, but I'm curious; how many of the people that voted on this actually like futanari?

On the flipside, it certainly does feel like the opposition to undoing the implication largely comes from people who simply dislike futanari and don't want to see it at all, other people's preferences for coherent tagging around futanari be damned.

Anonymaster said:

Newhalf has always been a tag that's been misused more often than not. It seems it was originally meant for canonical newhalves like Poison, but people used it for futas with balls because, again, most people simply don't care about the arbitrary difference between types of dickgirls. I would agree with your points if the tag had a better usage history, but at this point I think the options are either extreme gardening (and tighter rules on its usage) or nuking.
By the way, I fixed some stuff in the posts you linked. It's true that many were mistagged, but not for the reasons you cited.

Now my argument has always been that people using tags wrong should be corrected, not encouraged. But with these tags as they currently stand, it's hard for even me to be clear on how they should be differentiated with futanari's new definition. Arguing that people don't care about the differences in types of dickgirls is amusing, since if anything that was another reason to have the overarching dickgirl tag; the people who don't care would've been able to use that while the people who do care could tag and search via the more nuanced terms. Yet still that proposal was rejected.

As for you updating those posts, adding futa_with_futa to post #232431 just laughably demonstrates how bad the tagging situation is right now. futa_with_newhalf is the tag showing what it actually is: a futa fucking a newhalf, and yet with futanari being turned into that parent tag it's now futa_with_futa too, despite only one of them actually being the futa. The usage is contradictory; it can't be both futa_with_newhalf in the sense that it's a dickgirl with a penis and balls and vagina (the futa) + a dickgirl with penis and balls and no vagina (the newhalf), while at the same time being futa_with_futa in the sense that it's a dickgirl with a dickgirl. Those two tags are applying clearly different and inconsistent meanings of futanari. This is not something that was a problem before futanari's definition was revised to suit the tag implication being created.