I"m very disappointed by NNT's stance here. "Tag-what-you-see" should NOT be applied to a real person (e.g. in this case Natalie Mars, who, no matter what you think, identifies as a woman). No amount of "oh but she doesn't fit MY standards of femininity" applies, because this is a real person (albeit drawn).
This isn't "but it doesn't fit our standards", this is "being a decent human being".
tl;dr Real-life transgender women should not be tagged as men. Same for vice-versa.
This isn't "but it doesn't fit our standards", this is "being a decent human being".
Just saying two things. Keep accusing people of anything you don't agree with like racism or being transphobic won't help your case. Second: Arguing with "being a decent human being" won't get you so far on a website were loli gangrape images are getting uploaded daily.
Can you at least give any argument, why it's better to tag those characters as the opposite sex? Keep in mind that even the transgender tag states, that we tag by biological sex, not gender idendity. We are an image hosting website and should use the best way of tagging, not the best political or "being a decent human being" way of tagging.
On danbooru we tag sex, not gender. I think danbooru is a visual gallery and if we have to make exceptions and tag on canon it's going to quickly become an untouchable mess. You only have to look at the tag edits to see what I mean.
post #4656301 looks nothing like a woman. The character has a dick, balls, no breasts and no vagina. It's not a 1girl by danbooru definition. The post has no difference to any random post under crossdressing otoko_no_ko anal. If we start making specific exceptions then I can only see this descend into chaos as everyone wants their special OC tagged as a random gender. This is the same argument that led to post #1786727 being tagged as yaoi because the artist insists that the character is a boy despite looking like any other random futanari, or post #2574744 as 1girl.
If we *really* want to tag these specific characters as the opposite gender then at minimum we need a meta wiki that lists all of them, but I can't see this ending in any other way than an endless warring over tags because everyone disagrees on gender vs sex. I can only see this work on the very specific case of real people, and even in that case it's always going to descend into tag warring as people don't know or don't care about the real person.
Note that this is very different from crossdressing, where you can SEE the dick if the character is naked. This is a case of a character that looks like a boy, has sex like a boy, but is a girl because the person it's based on wants to be called a girl.
See it from the perspective of the average user who only comes here to fap to porn: do they want to see two dudes having anal sex if they search for 1boy 1girl? f I wanted to look at that I'd search for yaoi or 2boys anal, except that with your proposal I wouldn't be able to see that specific post because...??? I certainly can't see anyone searching for yaoi and wanting to see some random canon-tagged paizuri.
It doesn't though, was changed 10 days ago, apparently.
I admit I could've done a little more to that wiki and that other users picked up my slack for it.
But, yes, we tag neither gender identity nor birth sex.
We tag what's in the dang image. post #2689108 was once tagged 1boy transgender otoko_no_ko male_futanari crossdressing. That's insane and shouldn't be happening.
We tag what's in the dang image. post #2689108 was once tagged 1boy transgender otoko_no_ko male_futanari crossdressing. That's insane and shouldn't be happening.
This change makes sense to me. I only think the transgender wiki should make it more clear to not tag gender idendity.
We tag what's in the dang image. post #2689108 was once tagged 1boy transgender otoko_no_ko male_futanari crossdressing. That's insane and shouldn't be happening.
For the last time: That's a fictional character. I accept the ruling on that issue.
I don't think making a special rule for real people makes sense. If tagging by visual elements in an image for a fictional character makes for the most logical course, why wouldn't that also be the case for real people as well? Danbooru's aim isn't to protect people's feelings, hence why we allow controversial themes like politics, it's to make cataloguing and searching for images as easy as possible. Tagging contrary to what is seen would go counter to that.
I think the biggest issue here is the newhalf to futanari implication, because it doesn't feel appropriate to tag Natalie Mars from post #4656301 as futanari. At least that's what is causing this discussion. Like I said in topic #18871, Futanari are girls that magically grew a dick, while Newhalf are boys that grew boobs. By definition, Newhalf is a lot closer to Otoko no ko than futanari, however, appearance-wise they are smilar to futanari, which lead to the newhalf to futanari implication in topic #17369, essentially treating Newhalf as a subset of Futanari. Still, I agree with NNT, tag what you see is still important and we should be objective as possible.
I think the biggest issue here is the newhalf to futanari implication, because it doesn't feel appropriate to tag Natalie Mars from post #4656301 as futanari. At least that's what is causing this discussion. Like I said in topic #18871, Futanari are girls that magically grew a dick, while Newhalf are boys that grew boobs. By definition, Newhalf is a lot closer to Otoko no ko than futanari, however, appearance-wise they are smilar to futanari, which lead to the newhalf to futanari implication in topic #17369, essentially treating Newhalf as a subset of Futanari. Still, I agree with NNT, tag what you see is still important and we should be objective as possible.
Even if newhalf was a separate tag, the point is that the post in question would not qualify for that tag either, as at the very least there have to be breasts for the character to be a newhalf, otherwise there's no real difference between newhalf and otoko no ko.
If one of the most notable real-life transgender porn stars doesn't meet our tagging criteria for transgender people, that represents a problem with our tag definitions, not real life.
Even if you want to argue that our definition of newhalf is strictly based on the Japanese definition, you can easily go to Google and find newhalf porn stars without breasts. It's just enforcing a hard line where there is none.
Gender identity is a can of worms we really don't want to open. If we do, all of these posts will look like this. Is this the future you want?
There's a reason we've always sticked to "tag what you see".
As I said I'm not completely opposed to making a specific exception only for real life people, but it won't change a thing. People will keep changing the tags and the exception will only be in paper, because frankly I doubt many people who come here to masturbate to anime gay porn care about any of this. Again, if you're searching for futanari/"normal" newhalf you probably don't want to see the average gay porn you'd find under yaoi.
(And adding an exception means there'll be a list of characters to which the existing rules apply in reverse. Good luck making sense of that whenever someone starts edit-warring. I sure as hell am not going to go look at IRL gay porn whenever someone decides a character is being misgendered)
The horror at how confused everything is. For me, this is only necessary to designate visible signs. Even the newhalf tag instructs to look at the context, not the image itself. Remember how the German politician defined 40 genders? There are references to over 70 (!) Genders. It will be a tagging nightmare if you consider all the options.
Only the key tags could be highlighted: Main sex (male, female, asexual); Visible gender with gender, if required, as male_ (gender); It will allow you to search and filter, but will not break the search by the main sex attribute. Generally accepted, well-established terms that can be identified by visible signs or that reveal ("spoilers") the description of the character; For mixed traits (male and female organs, obscure appearance), use the ambiguous gender tag, as "ambiguous gender". This set creates redundancy of tags, but allows you to exclude the listing of all genders. I understand that the option is controversial, so just take it only as my opinion.
If there really are users on Danbooru who care about this and will throw tantrums about it, I think it would be best the reviewers simply avoid approving images of "IRL transgender people".
For arguments' sake, tagging images based on the known and declared gender of a real person would not necessarily apply since they're being drawn by somebody else. The artist can draw a real person any way that they want with or without malice in doing so. More food for thought: tagging based on actual gender (instead of visual sex) would be useless in the face of gender fluidity
I admit I could've done a little more to that wiki and that other users picked up my slack for it.
But, yes, we tag neither gender identity nor birth sex.
Correct. Otherwise we would still tag this Zombieland character as 1boy.
But I'm only repeating myself: Danbooru is website that tags visual aspects. That means we tag the phenotype of characters and the affiliated tags. In cases like the post in the OP, there is otoko no ko which seems to me like a gender tag.
In other words, formulated as a question: Don't we already have all the tags necessary to tag such images?
well imma say, i have a folder in my pc with otoko_no_ko stuff, and i would hate to search for this and find a futa for example (because she was born a man and became a woman before some surgery) i want to see some soft yaoi (like astolfo or felix) for real ppl, there is some ppl that dont know that the person in question is transgender, if i make some ella hollywood draw, but i dont know she is trans, i just saw one photo of her, idk, on instagram and decided to make something, she identifies as a woman but was born a guy, but should i put the tag 1boy? no, that just show we must tag what we see
