unimply miko -> japanese_clothes

BUR #5467 has been rejected.

remove implication miko -> japanese_clothes

We have constantly argued against nontraditional miko being implied to miko, because miko implies japanese clothes.
On light of
-The aforementioned discussion
-miko constantly being misused (miko touhou brings 4000+ results, most of them should be tagged as nontraditional miko)
-Half of nontraditional_miko being used along japanese clothes (nontraditional_miko japanese_clothes brings almost 10k posts)
I think the best course of action is to unimply miko to japanese clothes. People will then be able to search traditional mikos through a miko japanese_clothes search, although another option would be to make traditional miko.

In my opinion miko should be used when a character is either wearing a miko outfit of whatever kind or attending shrine duties. If they're a nontraditional miko, then at least some other miko element should be present, like a gohei or similar. Or something that generally makes you go "yeah that's a miko".

That's just moving the issue of mistaggings to another tag. If people can't tell the difference between miko and nontraditional miko what makes you think they'll be able to distinguish between traditional and fictional Japanese clothes?

nonamethanks said:

That's just moving the issue of mistaggings to another tag. If people can't tell the difference between miko and nontraditional miko what makes you think they'll be able to distinguish between traditional and fictional Japanese clothes?

I'd remake the miko tag to include any kind of girl wearing a miko outfit or doing miko duties. The tag isn't "miko outfit" (although miko outfit is aliased to miko), but "miko". So i think it should rather reflect the job itself rather than the aesthetic.

Saying that nontraditional miko shouldn't be tagged Japanese clothes is basically impossible. It means you can't use hakama or any other tag that implies Japanese clothes with nontraditional miko. It means a bunch of Japanese clothing items listed in the Japanese clothes wiki can't actually imply Japanese clothes, because they might be used with nontraditional outfits.

Furthermore, we don't have this split for other tags. We don't say that Chinese clothes can't be used for nontraditional china dresses, for example.

There are plenty of nontraditional mikos that are still wearing Japanese clothes, like the entire Kancolle Kongou class.

Nontraditional miko should just imply miko, and if people want only traditional mikos then they can use -nontraditional_miko. You're never gonna be able to convince everybody that a miko wearing a short skirt isn't actually a miko because it's not "traditional."

The issue for why it was created is because you can have the same thematic colors of a miko without having any traditional Japanese clothing making up the outfit though. Hakurei Reimu tends to be the biggest example of this, but if the outfit doesn't contain any traditional Japanese clothing why should it be forced to then be tagged Japanese clothes?

edit: Additionally comparing a "nontraditional" China dress to nontraditional miko is a bad comparison. Miko is a uniform/outfit tag, like the maid or police uniform tags, while china dress is a specific garment. A miko outfit is composed of several garments and has a general color appearance and pattern appearance. If you modified and changed the garment of a China dress it'd literally no longer be a China dress, but as Miko is an outfit and pattern you can swap out the garments that compose the outfit, and as long as the pattern is the same we'd still recognize it as a Miko outfit.

Nontraditional Miko was created because you can swap out all the traditional Japanese garments that compose the Miko outfit and replace them with non-Japanese garments of a similar pattern and still recognize the overall outfit as a "miko outfit." Given that the Miko tag is implicated to the Japanese clothes tag and the outfit doesn't necessarily have to be composed of any actual Japanese clothes, it means that there are images being mistagged and filling up the Japanese clothes tag that actually do not depict any Japanese clothes.

NWF_Renim said:

Nontraditional Miko was created because you can swap out all the traditional Japanese garments that compose the Miko outfit and replace them with non-Japanese garments of a similar pattern and still recognize the overall outfit as a "miko outfit." Given that the Miko tag is implicated to the Japanese clothes tag and the outfit doesn't necessarily have to be composed of any actual Japanese clothes, it means that there are images being mistagged and filling up the Japanese clothes tag that actually do not depict any Japanese clothes.

Exactly why nontraditional miko should imply miko and miko shouldn't imply japanese clothes. If it's recognizable as a miko, even when not containing any traditional elements, then it's a miko. Trying to say otherwise, when the names don't make it clear that one is mutually exclusive with the other, and nobody reads the wikis, just results in mistagging, made worse by an implication that isn't always correct. If you want the tags to be distinct, the most sensible way is with a traditional miko tag.

Individual clothing articles can imply japanese clothes, but it doesn't make sense for an entire outfit to imply it when parts can be swapped out without changing the overall feel of the outfit.

I suppose if the miko -> japanese_clothes implication is causing frequent issues with Japanese_clothes being implicitly mistagged when a nontraditional miko gets mistagged miko, then perhaps it should be removed. Most "proper" traditional miko should be tagged hakama and kimono (standing in for kosode) anyway, which will by themselves autoimply Japanese_clothes. And if a miko outfit can't be visually discerned enough to distinguish the hakama or kosode, then perhaps it shouldn't be implying Japanese_clothes in the first place.

+1 on the unimply. It seems bad form to have a job imply clothing, or really anything other than another job. Let clothing imply clothing. If one is truly wearing Japanese garb, then it will most likely be implied by one of the other clothing tags. If not, then it's likely that it probably shouldn't be tagged with miko.

Yeah, i changed my vote. I like the idea of unimplying japanese_clothes from miko and I would be on board of nontraditional_miko implying miko after that.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

I'm not sure if there's anything else to discuss, are we waiting for evazion's verdict?

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 60 days.

The bulk update request #5467 (forum #185653) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

Well, despite the discussion, the vote was split +9/-9 so the consensus wasn't clear to me. My opinion is that it's strange to say you can have a nontraditional miko outfit without a single shred of Japanese clothes.

We went through this before with the school swimsuit tag. We wanted nontraditional school swimsuit to imply school swimsuit, so we had to remove the school swimsuit -> one-piece swimsuit implication. This resulted in massive mistagging from people forgetting to tag school swimsuit with one-piece swimsuit manually. The same thing will happen to miko if it doesn't imply Japanese clothes, people won't know or won't remember to tag it manually.

I'm not sure why we even have this traditional vs. non-traditional distinction for mikos. When I look at Japanese clothes, I see plenty of other outfits that aren't very traditional either. For some reason, miko is the only tag where we care about this distinction. We don't make a distinction between traditional nun outfits and slutty non-traditional nun outfits. We don't make distinction between traditional maids and slutty non-traditional maids. So I'm not sure why we do it for mikos.

For me the easiest thing to do would be to let nontraditional miko imply miko, and say that Japanese clothes encompasses any kind of clothing based on traditional Japanese clothes.

I think there's worth in a "traditional outfit" tag (not singular pieces of clothing), mainly because if you're trying to look for some specific clothes then you can find them. As it is right now though, miko fails it's purpose of being exclusively about traditional miko outfits. It's quite polluted with non-traditional mikos.
If converting miko from a clothing tag to a "role" tag doesn't work, then is there any proposed alternative to fix this issue?

Gonna bring this topic back up because i'd like to do a bit of gardening.
Should pics where hakurei reimu is doing shrine duties (for example cleaning her shrine, post #4216077) not be tagged as miko if she isn't wearing traditional clothes?
Her wiki also calls her a miko, but later mentions how she's wearing non-traditional clothes. Should the tag be removed to prevent mistagging?