Renaming Spy x Family character tags.

BUR #5707 has been approved by @evazion.

rename tasogare_(spy_x_family) -> twilight_(spy_x_family)
create alias loid_forger -> twilight_(spy_x_family)
rename ania_(spy_x_family) -> anya_(spy_x_family)
rename yoru_briar -> yor_briar
create alias yor_forger -> yor_briar

Updating tags to reflect how names appear in official Viz releases.
Twilight's real name is unknown as of yet. He uses the codename Twilight and the alias Loid Forger for his spy mission. My impression is that most of the fanbase knows and refers to him as Loid, but since this isn't his real name I'm hesitant to make it the primary tag.
Similarly, Yor Briar is currently assuming the name Yor Forger for her respective undercover mission, and I suspect most would search for her via the latter tag.

Agreed.
In particular, keeping Tasogare (spy_x_family) as the primary just feels... jarring, as the setting is basically "East Germany but with the serial numbers filed off".

Similar names (one or two Japanese words acting as a codename or title) generally get translated (instead of transliterated) if the character isn't Japanese and the setting has practically no trace of overt Japanese culture. See most of the original doujin that get uploaded here (other than some 'well-known' terms like "maou", or if there's no convenient translation that doesn't wind up sounding 'weird').

The only one that I have issue with is changing Ania to Anya - though Anya is how her name appears in official Viz releases, in the Japanese original her name is rendered as Ania, the Polish form.

Given the attention to detail Endou generally puts in his work (to the point where it was requested that certain names be romanized a certain way when MangaPLUS was doing the translation in-house, generally aligning it with how he was romanizing [Loid over Lloyd, Yor over Yoru, Forger over Folger]), there's likely a specific reason for this. Even Ania was used for a number of chapters in English, before switching back to Anya, presumably a case of relenting. Aliasing Anya to Ania though would be fine.

Damian0358 said:

The only one that I have issue with is changing Ania to Anya - though Anya is how her name appears in official Viz releases, in the Japanese original her name is rendered as Ania, the Polish form.

Given the attention to detail Endou generally puts in his work (to the point where it was requested that certain names be romanized a certain way when MangaPLUS was doing the translation in-house, generally aligning it with how he was romanizing [Loid over Lloyd, Yor over Yoru, Forger over Folger]), there's likely a specific reason for this. Even Ania was used for a number of chapters in English, before switching back to Anya, presumably a case of relenting. Aliasing Anya to Ania though would be fine.

Hmm. Since that's the case, I'll second the alias (in your suggested direction of Anya -> Ania) instead of renaming. As well, probably also alias the others instead of renaming? (but in the same direction as the proposed renames) In case anyone wants to search for them under their old 'names'.

Who are these characters? The wikis don't explain. They should at least provide some basic context and links to external wikis. It's hard for me to judge what to do here when I have to do a bunch of outside research before I can understand who you're even talking about.

The Loid versus Lloyd thing sounds like the same situation as Nasu insisting on Altria instead of Artoria. Just because a creator insists on something doesn't automatically mean we'll follow it. I'm inclined to say just keep it simple and do whatever the official Viz release does.

As far as codenames versus real names (or assumed names, as it seems to be in this case), my general stance is that we should use whatever the fanbase normally uses to refer to the character.

evazion said:

Who are these characters? The wikis don't explain. They should at least provide some basic context and links to external wikis. It's hard for me to judge what to do here when I have to do a bunch of outside research before I can understand who you're even talking about.

The Loid versus Lloyd thing sounds like the same situation as Nasu insisting on Altria instead of Artoria. Just because a creator insists on something doesn't automatically mean we'll follow it. I'm inclined to say just keep it simple and do whatever the official Viz release does.

As far as codenames versus real names (or assumed names, as it seems to be in this case), my general stance is that we should use whatever the fanbase normally uses to refer to the character.

The characters have undergone several names changes (due to a change in translator, plus an authorial request in between that was honored by the first translator). The characters also have a 'cover identity' business going with their names, so there's a further vagueness over their names. This has led to the fanbase being split on what names to use.

Anyways, I will attempt to... elaborate this as best as I can.

Currently (2021-06-07), the names used by the Viz translation (the ongoing official translation, this can be checked by going through the first three free chapters on Viz-Mangaplus) are:
Twilight: Code name ("spy name", basically) of the 'father' character. Real name unknown. Not a superhero identity either with different costumes, so a separate chartag would be inappropriate.
Loid Forger: Assumed name ("cover identity") of the 'father' character. This is what nearly everybody in-universe calls this character, other than his "spy colleagues".
Anya: Name of the 'daughter' character.
Yor Briar: Maiden name of the 'mother' character.

Some other 'official' names:
Yor Forger: On paper, Yor is 'married' to Loid, so she assumes the name "Yor Forger".
Anya Forger: On paper, Anya is 'adopted' by Loid, so she assumes the name "Anya Forger".

More names that are probably irrelevant because most fans don't use them:
Thorn Princess: Yor's code name when acting as an assassin. Fans don't usually call her this, because they know her real name.
Subject 007: Anya's previous name when she was an experimental subject for some black-ops project. Fans don't usually call her this, because well, "Anya" is a better name and also her 'current' name.

The issue is that they have the whole 'cover identity' going on (so the last name Forger is still kinda shaky), so even fans who agree on using the Viz translations will split on whether to:
1. Call the 'father' "Twilight" or "Loid Forger"
2. Call the 'mother' "Yor Briar" or "Yor Forger"
3. Call the daughter just "Anya" or "Anya Forger"

(for 'official' community stuff like wiki articles. Otherwise most people prefer Loid/Yor/Anya because they are shorter.)

The approach chosen by NinjaPope for Danbooru tags is:
1. Call the 'father' Twilight_(spy_x_family). Alias Loid_Forger to Twilight_(spy_x_family).
2. Call the 'mother' Yor_Briar. Alias "Yor_Forger" to "Yor Briar".
3. Call the daughter just Anya_(spy_x_family). No need to alias Anya_Forger, because presumably autocomplete will make it apparent.

This is, IMHO, the most robust, as this would mean their chartags would remain intact even if the "Loid Forger" identity gets compromised or discarded later and they assume new 'cover names'.

There are also some other issues to consider. Because of the frequent retcons (of spellings) and a lot of hearsay on what happened, I am not entirely sure of the order or particulars of events that transpired, and I cannot substantiate these claims due to all the changing that was going on, but from my understanding:
1. The series translation was first done in-house by Mangaplus. This was an official translation. There were... some number of name changes early on that I'm not sure about, but perhaps the direct transliteration Tasogare was introduced then.
2. The first 'stable' set of names they went with are Lloyd, Yoru, and Anya. With Folger as the surname. And Twilight as the code name.
3. "Anya" got changed to "Ania" after one of the manga pages depicted a placard over the 'daughter's room with her name written as "Ania".
4. Translator then somehow changed "Ania" back to "Anya".
5. Author reached out to Translator and got their names changed to Loid, Yor and Ania. With Forger as surname, and Twilight unchanged. At this point, the flashback pages and previous chapters were a total mess, with numerous different spellings of the characters' names.
6. Viz took over Mangaplus and switched over to another translation team.
7. Viz-Translator #2 kept most of the names, but changed "Ania" back to "Anya". Author allegedly complained a lot or something (because they allegedly intended the 'daughter's name to use the Polish spelling) but they continued with the change.
8. Viz-Translator slowly 'retcons' previous pages over time to gradually change everything to the new naming scheme.
9. Throughout all this, English letter names in the JP version uses Loid/Yor/Ania.

As you can see... the whole thing is a big mess, leaving the fans... rather divided on what names to use. Though generally most people agree with the final Viz set of names, other than splitting on Ania vs. Anya. This is chiefly because of well, all the switching back-and-forth between the two spellings. There were also hearsay that the author really wanted to spell it as "Ania", that the author had some specific reason for picking the Polish spelling "Ania" that might possibly mean something in the story or have some thematic allusion, etc. etc.

Though... in the end, if I were to speculate, I would say that more and more people have generally switched over to the all-Viz spelling over time, so there's that.

So... yeah, whole thing is a mess, and the fans are still divided. That said, NinjaPope's suggestion should be the most robust going forward.

Edit: Typo on Yoru's name (repeated Yoru Briar twice).

NNescio said:

There are also some other issues to consider. Because of the frequent retcons (of spellings) and a lot of hearsay on what happened, I am not entirely sure of the order or particulars of events that transpired, and I cannot substantiate these claims due to all the changing that was going on, but from my understanding:

As someone who has been reading from the start, I can share what the actual timeline is:
1. Spy x Family debuts on Shonen Jump+ and MangaPLUS with a simultranslation - as Spy x Family hadn't yet been licensed out to anyone, the in-house translation team over at MangaPLUS handles it for now (2019-03-25); whoever made tags probably just went the lazy Japanese route and used Tasogare to be safe, instead of Twilight (who is Loid Forger)
2. Up to Chapter 10, the names used for the characters were Lloyd Folger, Yoru Briar/Folger, and Anya Folger. Up to that point, however, Loid Forger and Yor Briar/Forger had already appeared in the Japanese original, at minimum twice each (though one instance each was changed in the English version, that being the marriage certificate in Chapter 3)
3. According to an anonymous source, the mangaka wasn't satisfied with the discrepancy, and thus MangaPLUS got word from higher up that they needed to correct this, which they did (2019-07-28); this leads to the first name divide between fans
4. Chapter 10 is also when Ania first appears in both the Japanese original and the English translation (though, if I recall correctly, it could also be Chapter 11 when Ania is first used in English, as the placard on this page from #10 was actually changed in the English release to say Anya, but there were chapters that used Ania as her name in English; the MangaPLUS-translated chapters are still floating around, so this could be checked)
5. VIZ Media officially licenses Spy x Family for English-speaking markets, after a month of rumors spreading (2019-09-20); the original MangaPLUS-translated chapters end up getting replaced, for the most part, with VIZ's translation by the release of the next chapter [14], with only it and the previous one still being the in-house version (2019-09-22)
6. Chapter 14 is also when Ania gets changed back to Anya, reason completely unknown (so an in-house change back, hence my speculation on the mangaka relenting, as I believe no statements were made about the change back; the only known instance of the mangaka complaining is with Loid and Yor's names being wrong)
7. By the release of the following chapter [15], the VIZ translation has fully replaced the in-house one, VIZ fully in swing of translating the manga (2019-10-06), continuing to use Anya in place of Ania, but otherwise retaining the changes to Loid Forger and Yor Briar in English as requested by the mangaka
8. Throughout all of this, in the Japanese original, the names used are Loid/Yor/Ania Forger

Folks have grown most accepting of Loid's change, given its use in the period and other associated meaning; Yor's name has largely been accepted, though some folks think Yoru sounds more Eastern European, given her brother is called Yuri, but the author did romanize it as Yor; the Ania/Anya issue remains the biggest one, though folks have generally accepted the use of Anya in English, but realizing that the fact the author chose Ania in the Japanese original likely has some deeper reasoning, which could potentially cause issue later on for the translators. But yeah, since then, folks have come to terms with the names.

And NinjaPope's suggestions would indeed be the most robust going forward, at least once the BUR has it so 'Anya' aliases 'Ania' instead, just as a precautionary move.

Damian0358 said:

As someone who has been reading from the start, I can share what the actual timeline is:
1. Spy x Family debuts on Shonen Jump+ and MangaPLUS with a simultranslation - as Spy x Family hadn't yet been licensed out to anyone, the in-house translation team over at MangaPLUS handles it for now (2019-03-25); whoever made tags probably just went the lazy Japanese route and used Tasogare to be safe, instead of Twilight (who is Loid Forger)
2. Up to Chapter 10, the names used for the characters were Lloyd Folger, Yoru Briar/Folger, and Anya Folger. Up to that point, however, Loid Forger and Yor Briar/Forger had already appeared in the Japanese original, at minimum twice each (though one instance each was changed in the English version, that being the marriage certificate in Chapter 3)
3. According to an anonymous source, the mangaka wasn't satisfied with the discrepancy, and thus MangaPLUS got word from higher up that they needed to correct this, which they did (2019-07-28); this leads to the first name divide between fans
4. Chapter 10 is also when Ania first appears in both the Japanese original and the English translation (though, if I recall correctly, it could also be Chapter 11 when Ania is first used in English, as the placard on this page from #10 was actually changed in the English release to say Anya, but there were chapters that used Ania as her name in English; the MangaPLUS-translated chapters are still floating around, so this could be checked)
5. VIZ Media officially licenses Spy x Family for English-speaking markets, after a month of rumors spreading (2019-09-20); the original MangaPLUS-translated chapters end up getting replaced, for the most part, with VIZ's translation by the release of the next chapter [14], with only it and the previous one still being the in-house version (2019-09-22)
6. Chapter 14 is also when Ania gets changed back to Anya, reason completely unknown (so an in-house change back, hence my speculation on the mangaka relenting, as I believe no statements were made about the change back; the only known instance of the mangaka complaining is with Loid and Yor's names being wrong)
7. By the release of the following chapter [15], the VIZ translation has fully replaced the in-house one, VIZ fully in swing of translating the manga (2019-10-06), continuing to use Anya in place of Ania, but otherwise retaining the changes to Loid Forger and Yor Briar in English as requested by the mangaka
8. Throughout all of this, in the Japanese original, the names used are Loid/Yor/Ania Forger

Folks have grown most accepting of Loid's change, given its use in the period and other associated meaning; Yor's name has largely been accepted, though some folks think Yoru sounds more Eastern European, given her brother is called Yuri, but the author did romanize it as Yor; the Ania/Anya issue remains the biggest one, though folks have generally accepted the use of Anya in English, but realizing that the fact the author chose Ania in the Japanese original likely has some deeper reasoning, which could potentially cause issue later on for the translators. But yeah, since then, folks have come to terms with the names.

And NinjaPope's suggestions would indeed be the most robust going forward, at least once the BUR has it so 'Anya' aliases 'Ania' instead, just as a precautionary move.

Thanks for the clarification.

Anyhow, wrote up wikis for all 3 chars. Not sure how we're to go forward with 'Anya' vs "Ania'. "Anya" would be the easiest for consistency ("keep it simple", as evazion noted), I suppose. In any case, the wikis will have to be further edited if the name changes go through.

Had to use a lot of 'quibble' quotes though, because otherwise a lot of the terms aren't quite... technically right, and explaining would require too many words and risk spoiling more than otherwise necessary.

The bulk update request #5707 (forum #187461) has been approved by @evazion.