Posted under Tags
BUR #5634 has been approved by @evazion.
mass update mash_kyrielight_(cosplay) dangerous_beast -> mash_kyrielight_(dangerous_beast)_(cosplay)
create alias dangerous_beast -> mash_kyrielight_(dangerous_beast)
It never made any sense to me that this was a general tag.
(Not asking for an implication for now because mash_kyrielight_(senpai_killer_outfit) doesn't imply the main tag either)
I agree with it being a character tag, but could we not just use mash kyrielight (cosplay)? This is almost exclusively what we do with most other character costumes. At the very least I know it's what we do with the Azur Lane costumes.
If dangerous beast is Mash's outfit, then anyone wearing it is cosplaying as Mash, right? Having a separate cosplay tag for every individual outfit a character has creates tag bloat and over complicates tagging, when you could just use the character's base cosplay tag. We don't do things like souryuu asuka langley (plugsuit) (cosplay), as far as I know.
As usual, with fate it's handled differently.
This issue should probably be tackled in its own thread, given that it's a widespread issue, but I doubt it'll succeed because we'd have to manually alias every fate cosplay subtag to its main one whenever a new costume shows up, adding maintenance to a franchise that's already a huge pain in the ass.
nonamethanks said:
As usual, with fate it's handled differently.
This issue should probably be tackled in its own thread, given that it's a widespread issue, but I doubt it'll succeed because we'd have to manually alias every fate cosplay subtag to its main one whenever a new costume shows up, adding maintenance to a franchise that's already a huge pain in the ass.
I understand it for entirely separate servants, like I wouldn't want artoria pendragon (cosplay) being a tag for every single variant of Artora. But if it's the exact same character just wearing different clothes, I don't see why it should have it's own cosplay tag. Senpai Killer and Dangerous Beast are both just alternate costumes worn by Mash, neither are different people. Separate cosplay tags for Saber Alter and mysterious heroine x (fate), sure; BB Nurse getting its own cosplay tag, no.
As I've said in topic #18609/p2, which spawned this one, dangerous_beast became popular and common enough that it should be treated similarly to cat_lingerie, reverse_bunnysuit, and other meme_attire. A character wearing it doesn't necessarily mean that they are cosplaying mash_kyrielight.
So I think that it should remain a general tag.
MyrMindservant said:
As I've said in topic #18609, which spawned this one, dangerous_beast became popular and common enough that it should be treated similarly to cat_lingerie, reverse_bunnysuit, and other meme_attire. A character wearing it doesn't necessarily mean that they are cosplaying mash_kyrielight.
So I think that it should remain a general tag.
I've never fully agreed with this reasoning, the idea that an outfit stops belonging to a character because artists drew too many other characters wearing it. Dangerous Beast belongs to Mash. I don't care how much fanart of other servants wearing it there is.
blindVigil said:
I've never fully agreed with this reasoning, the idea that an outfit stops belonging to a character because artists drew too many other characters wearing it. Dangerous Beast belongs to Mash. I don't care how much fanart of other servants wearing it there is.
Not just other servants, it can appear in all kinds of situations and with all kinds of characters, including original ones. I think I saw it in some doujins that had nothing to do with the Fate franchise. And it's just an outfit, not an inherent part of the character.
We use general tags for articles of clothing and various outfits. I don't see why this one should be an exception.
MyrMindservant said:
Not just other servants, it can appear in all kinds of situations and with all kinds of characters, including original ones. I think I saw it in some doujins that had nothing to do with the Fate franchise. And it's just an outfit, not an inherent part of the character.
We use general tags for articles of clothing and various outfits. I don't see why this one should be an exception.
But it's still an outfit originally, and canonically only, worn by Mash. It makes no difference if fanworks depicting it have nothing to do with Fate.
We have plugsuit but still tag posts featuring Asuka's red plugsuit souryuu asuka langley (cosplay) because it doesn't matter how many people have been depicted wearing it in fanart, the red plugsuit is Asuka's plugsuit.
blindVigil said:
We have plugsuit but still tag posts featuring Asuka's red plugsuit souryuu asuka langley (cosplay) because it doesn't matter how many people have been depicted wearing it in fanart, the red plugsuit is Asuka's plugsuit.
To be fair, we do this thing for "special" outfits. Asuka is for 90% of the time in her plugsuit. Conversely, Mash is only depicted in that in a single artwork, like treat or treatment and the likes.
As for my personal opinion: I personally believe that outfit tags such as that should be gentags. The main reason is that the character itself doesn't change - one of the reasons why Fate chartags are such a mess is that the characters are physically and mentally different between their iterations - taking Artoria for example, Alter's skin is paler, while her Lancer depiction is more mature. Their differences can be told even without their outfits (post #2588915).
What put a wrench between all of this system are swimsuit tags - the characters are the same, but they wear a swimsuit. Since in-game they're character alts though, they have been treated as different characters in the tags. (An argument could be made for Mordred's swimsuit alt because she gets a tan, but that aside)
The male outfits, which you can play as, are only skins, so we have gentags like monte cristo selection, which would be virtually no different from an edmond_dantes_(swimsuit)_(fate) chartag.
My point is: alternate tags are different characters. You can tell apart the characters when they're completely naked. The only results *swimsuit*_(fate) nude yield can be told apart from the "original" character because of the setting, accessories, or alts (post #3940874, there's no way you can tell this apart from normal mordred). Otherwise, there's no way you could tell that is a different character.
My proposal would be to make all swimsuit tags gentags, and keep CE tags as gentags, but be more descriptive (dangerous_beast -> mash_kryelight_(dangerous_beast)). This could also fix the character tag bloating that other gachas are suffering because of the different outfits.
On a side note, i swear hoshiguma_yuugi_(promo) was a gentag, but i can't find any discussion about the change on the forums or discord.
blindVigil said:
Putting a character's name in a gentag honestly sounds really questionable as a solution. It's not really a "general" tag at that point, it might as well just be a character tag.
I mean, we have Saigyouji Yuyuko's fan design. But that aside, what would you suggest? "Monte cristo selection" feels very vague.
Username_Hidden said:
I mean, we have Saigyouji Yuyuko's fan design. But that aside, what would you suggest? "Monte cristo selection" feels very vague.
Okay, but that's different. It's definitely weird, but it's for a specific object, and not an entire costume. Though its name does look like it might be for an outfit.
And you're right, monte cristo selection is a bad tag, no one could ever guess what it was for from the name alone. But making it edmond dantes (monte cristo selection) (fate) just makes it look exactly like the hundreds of character tags we already have. Raising the question of why it's a general tag, or why all the others are character tags. It would look completely out of place having a growing number of psuedo-character tags filling up the gentag list.
I don't have any ideas for how to make it work as a gentag, and I agree with the sentiments evazion has outlined in previous threads, and would rather it be a character tag if it's going to be tagged at all.
Don't some of the characters have their own variations on the Dangerous Beast costume that no longer resemble Mash's? Or is it a fan only thing?
(Sorry, gave up on following canon Fate a long time ago.)
NNescio said:
Or is it a fan only thing?
Fan-only thing.
(Sorry, gave up on following canon Fate a long time ago.)
It doesn't have anything to do with canon which makes it even harder to tag them, consider them as promo artworks.
blindVigil said:
Raising the question of why it's a general tag, or why all the others are character tags.
Because it's not an actually different character.
Username_Hidden said:
Because it's not an actually different character.
So are hundreds of other alt-skin tags, but they are still character tags. The problem is that you can't just give a reason that isn't being applied to the majority of an ever growing list of tags and just expect that to settle the discussion. Most people who start asking questions aren't going to be satisfied with that.
blindVigil said:
So are hundreds of other alt-skin tags, but they are still character tags. The problem is that you can't just give a reason that isn't being applied to the majority of an ever growing list of tags and just expect that to settle the discussion. Most people who start asking questions aren't going to be satisfied with that.
They should have never been in the first place is how I see it. Now that they are though, there's no one solution that will satisfy everyone.
Astolfo said:
They should have never been in the first place is how I see it. Now that they are though, there's no one solution that will satisfy everyone.
The thing is, we've been making alt-skin character tags long before gacha games spiked in popularity. Yoko Littner has Yomako and Space Yoko, LoL has dozens of them, many of which are at least five years old iirc. There's probably dozens more examples. We were already on this road for a long time. I'm not sure which gacha game kicked started the recent trend (was it AL?), but when people started to notice, I don't recall there being a whole lot of push back. Not until Fate started doing it.
blindVigil said:
The thing is, we've been making alt-skin character tags long before gacha games spiked in popularity. Yoko Littner has Yomako and Space Yoko, LoL has dozens of them, many of which are at least five years old iirc. There's probably dozens more examples. We were already on this road for a long time. I'm not sure which gacha game kicked started the recent trend (was it AL?), but when people started to notice, I don't recall there being a whole lot of push back. Not until Fate started doing it.
I'd argue a difference between different outfits and different forms (eg. the difference between Saber Artoria and Lancer Artoria vs. Saber Artoria and swimsuit Archer Artoria) but I don't know enough about TTGL to know what's what there. Fair though.
Username_Hidden said:
Fan-only thing.
It doesn't have anything to do with canon
which makes it even harder to tag them, consider them as promo artworks.Because it's not an actually different character.
*checks*
Don't the Prisma trio have their own semi-official variations of that costume? (as depicted in post #2826732) Or are those called by a different name but fans call them "dangerous beast" (or "beast") because of the thematic similarity with Mash's?
NNescio said:
Don't the Prisma trio have their own semi-official variations of that costume? Or are those called by a different name but fans call them "dangerous beast" (or "beast") because of the thematic similarity with Mash's?
If you mean the one under illyasviel_von_einzbern cat_ears, that costume comes from one of the anime OVA, it's not related to dangerous beast.
