Posted under Tags
nonamethanks said:
If you mean the one under illyasviel_von_einzbern cat_ears, that costume comes from one of the anime OVA, it's not related to dangerous beast.
Huh, guess calling that "(Dangerous) Beast" is a fan name then. Thanks for the clarification.
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Any further input on this?
Should I continue my tagging quest on the 28 remaining pages of "mash_kyrielight dangerous_beast -cosplay -official_alternate_costume", or do I wait for the resolution on this first?
The idea is to add official_alternate_costume to pics of Mashu with DB outfit that don't currently have the tag; I'm excluding cosplay since it's not clear if somebody *else* using the outfit makes that qualify for the tag, since DB *is* an official alternate outfit but it's only official on Mashu, but the wiki doesn't make this explicit.
Or will that need its own forum topic and possible BUR? >_>
The bulk update request #5634 (forum #186992) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
To me the whole argument over whether something is an outfit or a separate character is just an argument over semantics. It's like saying that Batman should be a gentag because Batman is just a costume worn by Bruce Wayne, not a physically separate person. That may be true, but treating Batman as a gentag would be really confusing. The reason it's a chartag is because it's more character-like than gentag-like.
We went through this before with Ex-Keine from Touhou. Ex-Keine is just a variant of Keine with horns and green hair. At one point we made it a gentag (at my suggestion, even) on the basis that it wasn't really a separate character (topic #3561). We eventually reverted it back because treating it as a gentag was too confusing (topic #8454). So this isn't a new debate and it's not unique to Fate, it actually originated in Touhou and we actually did try the gentag approach before giving up on it.
The bulk update request #5634 (forum #186992) has been approved by @evazion.
evazion said:
To me the whole argument over whether something is an outfit or a separate character is just an argument over semantics. It's like saying that Batman should be a gentag because Batman is just a costume worn by Bruce Wayne, not a physically separate person. That may be true, but treating Batman as a gentag would be really confusing. The reason it's a chartag is because it's more character-like than gentag-like.
I agree with that, but there's to be said that we would also not tag bruce wayne, acting like bruce wayne, in a speedo as a different chartag.
Batman is an alter-ego, as such it makes sense to tag it as if it was a character of it's own.
We went through this before with Ex-Keine from Touhou. [...]
I think the same applies here, Ex-Keine is usually portrayed as an alter-ego. Not only that, but her physical appearance differs too.
In Dangerous Beast's case, it's just Mash in a skimpy outfit. It doesn't have any dialogue, only some flavour text like other Craft Essences.
I think the problem here is that people are trying to lump summer alts (which are just the characters in a swimsuit) in the same category as proper alts (again as example, cu_chulainn_alter).
If i'm missing something here, please do tell me.
Username_Hidden said:
I agree with that, but there's to be said that we would also not tag bruce wayne, acting like bruce wayne, in a speedo as a different chartag.
Batman is an alter-ego, as such it makes sense to tag it as if it was a character of it's own.
That, and all the skin tags are more like Batman_(classic), Batman_(Year_Zero), Batman_(jungle), Batman_(rainbow), Batman_(Zur-En-Arrh), Batman_(zebra), Batman_(Red_Son), Batman_(Trinity_Armor), Batman_(Justice_Armor), Batman_(Justice_Buster), Batman_(Hellbat_Armor), Batman_(Batwing_Armor), Batman_(Augmentation_Suit), Batman_(Trasher_Suit), Batman_(Stealth_Suit)... (ignoring all the variants of the "classic" look that basically just involve different cowl/cape lengths and logo colors).
Every single "alternate outfit" of a character, basically.
(More relevant/actually present examples would probably be all the barrier jacket forms of the Nanoha characters, or the more unique Touhou outfits from specific subseries.)
That said... Mash's outfit is unique enough for me to think it deserves its own tag. All the other generic swimsuit skins, on the other hand... fine, an argument can be make that people don't consistently tag cocktail dress for C̶o̶c̶k̶t̶a̶i̶l̶ ̶D̶r̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶T̶a̶i̶h̶o̶u̶ Forbidden Feast Taihou, but not tagging swimsuit for swimsuit "skins" is inexcusable.
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Provence said:
I still don't see why we should treat this tag different from any other skin tags in gacha games.
FGO isn't special.
In fact i want to extend this proposal to other copyrights who have followed FGO's steps (despite everyone saying "you shouldn't use FGO tagging as argument")
We already do it with many outfit tags, like, dunno, kita high school uniform or every other uniform tag.
Some of these are worn by multiple characters, while some are worn only by one character.
Either way, the "alternate costume = character tag" argument has only ever been done in regard of gacha games. I believe the first who started tagging outfits as characters, other than FGO, has been Azur Lane. Some gacha copyrights followed suit.
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NNescio said:
That said... Mash's outfit is unique enough for me to think it deserves its own tag. All the other generic swimsuit skins, on the other hand... fine, an argument can be make that people don't consistently tag cocktail dress for C̶o̶c̶k̶t̶a̶i̶l̶ ̶D̶r̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶T̶a̶i̶h̶o̶u̶ Forbidden Feast Taihou, but not tagging swimsuit for swimsuit "skins" is inexcusable.
I have never said we should remove them. They are extremely useful as tags. But as they are right now, they're polluting the charcount too much.
Username_Hidden said:
In fact i want to extend this proposal to other copyrights who have followed FGO's steps (despite everyone saying "you shouldn't use FGO tagging as argument")
We already do it with many outfit tags, like, dunno, kita high school uniform or every other uniform tag.
Some of these are worn by multiple characters, while some are worn only by one character.
Either way, the "alternate costume = character tag" argument has only ever been done in regard of gacha games. I believe the first who started tagging outfits as characters, other than FGO, has been Azur Lane. Some gacha copyrights followed suit.
To a certain degree, FGO and Azur Lane skins also present extra annoyances because the base character name is yoinked from real life, resulting in autocomplete tag collisions being far more likely than for other Gacha copyrights.
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Username_Hidden said:
I have never said we should remove them. They are extremely useful as tags. But as they are right now, they're polluting the charcount too much.
Personally I think all swimsuit skintags should be nuked. Unless there's something unique about that specific swimsuit costume.
NNescio said:
Personally I think all swimsuit skintags should be nuked. Unless there's something unique about that specific swimsuit costume.
Just to quote evazion from discord:
https://discord.com/channels/310432830138089472/710192137878241372/849564338682986496
evazion said ( — 06.02.2021):
these tags exist because people search for themthere are almost as many people searching for artoria swimsuit ruler as there are for school swimsuits
they get more searches than most actual swimsuit tags
Guaro said:
Just to quote evazion from discord:
https://discord.com/channels/310432830138089472/710192137878241372/849564338682986496
Well, that's technically not a swimsuit for one, despite Type Moon's (atrocious) naming. And even as playboy bunny suits go one can argue that it is still somewhat unique. Aaaand also it's technically not a skintag, but an alternate version/identity/alter-ego/whatever-timey-wimey-excuse-Type-Moon-thought-up of a character. And from my understanding that specific split-identityclone of Arturia has her own story event and subplot involving casinos or whatever nonsense (that will come up in comics or some art that depicts the plot), so IMHO she's a legitimate character in her own right.
Most of the craft essence swimsuits, on the other hand...
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Foxfire Ahri is 8 years old. LoL has been getting alt-skin tags for years. Some of them have backstory, like the KD/A skins, but mechanically they're just skins.
"At least EX-Keine looks different. She's basically an alter ego." She's an alt-color with horns.
"These specific outfits aren't unique enough to deserve being tags." And EX-Keine is? She's not a different person, she doesn't change her clothes. She just turns green, grows horns, and acts a little more aggressive.
This whole debate is just a lot of splitting hairs, while ignoring actual usage statistics. Arguing about who deserves to be a tag, based on how "different" or "unique" they are is a waste of time. We already have ample proof that using gentags for skins makes them almost invisible.
blindVigil said:
Foxfire Ahri is 8 years old. LoL has been getting alt-skin tags for years. Some of them have backstory, like the KD/A skins, but mechanically they're just skins.
Because those are just mentioned in some backstory blurb that nobody reads and nobody ever experiences in game anyway (unlike F/GO 'character'-specific events that occur as part of the plot). And retconned out in short order with how volatile LoL's canon is.
Not that I mind the LoL skin tags just existing, because they don't really cause any problems by dint of their nomenclature.
blindVigil said:
This whole debate is just a lot of splitting hairs, while ignoring actual usage statistics. Arguing about who deserves to be a tag, based on how "different" or "unique" they are is a waste of time. We already have ample proof that using gentags for skins makes them almost invisible.
That approach just leads to opening a can of worms to tagging EVERY SINGLE alternate outfit of EVERY SINGLE fictional character (Gachas SHOULDN't be special and be the only ones to get all the extra skintags). I mean, sure, we can rely on usage statistics and then nuke the less-used examples, but this just turns things into a popularity contests and leads to to popular series getting underrepresented even further (especially with all the extra tags increasing their visibility even more). And bad blood when their skintag for a less popular series get nuked.
(And gachas don't all get skintags for every single character skins either the moment they are released. It's just F/GO and the Chinese gachas. Cygames and DMM gachas don't get endless skintags.)
On some level it is like this; every character deserves their own chartag, but a character getting 6+ chartags , half of those some generic alternate outfit that one can pick out from a real-life garment store, is just excessive.
Before the whole gacha kerfuffle, chartags had to rely on canon information somewhat (because how else does one know a "character" is a "character"?). The rule of thumb was kinda whether a character's "altself" is distinct enough. As an example take, say, a younger and an older version of a character. If the older version is just the younger version growing up (and visibly appears to be so), they don't get separate chartags, because they are the same character. So Edward Elric doesn't get a separate tag for his older self. But Trunks gets one for Future Trunks because that's his alternate time-traveling self from a bad future despite just being an older-looking Trunks. (Note also that Future Trunks doesn't imply the "base" character, unlike most of the gacha skins. He is a distinct character).
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Now I'm not opposed to skintags per se. Most of the ones that are already up should stay because work have been put into them and they are useful in some capacity. What I am opposed to is the cavalier practice of creating new skintags whenever a new alternate outfit gets released for a gacha.
(Most irksome so far for me being Croissant_(seven_am)_(arknights))
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NNescio said:
But Trunks gets one for Future Trunks because that's his alternate time-traveling self from a bad future despite just being an older-looking Trunks. (Note also that Future Trunks doesn't imply the "base" character, unlike most of the gacha skins. He is a distinct character).
Well, that makes no sense. Future trunks should imply trunks. topic #19119
NNescio said:
That approach just leads to opening a can of worms to tagging EVERY SINGLE alternate outfit of EVERY SINGLE fictional character (Gachas SHOULDN't be special and be the only ones to get all the extra skintags). I mean, sure, we can rely on usage statistics and then nuke the less-used examples, but this just turns things into a popularity contests and leads to to popular series getting underrepresented even further (especially with all the extra tags increasing their visibility even more). And bad blood when their skintag for a less popular series get nuked.
Except that's not even remotely what I was referring to.
I'm talking about arguing to nuke all these tags, or turn them into gentags, despite the mountains of evidence evazion and NNT have provided showing that gentags are barely better than useless and chartags actually see consistent and reliable use.
On top of all the arguing about "this skin is too "generic", it can't have a tag, but that other skin is "unique", it should get a tag."
On some level it is like this; every character deserves their own chartag, but a character getting 6+ chartags , half of those some generic alternate outfit that one can pick out from a real-life garment store, is just excessive.
I dunno what clothing stores you go to that you could actually buy even a 10th of the outfits seen in AL/AK/Whatever. Some of the swimsuits maybe.
Now I'm not opposed to skintags per se. Most of the ones that are already up should stay because work have been put into them and they are useful in some capacity. What I am opposed to is the cavalier practice of creating new skintags whenever a new alternate outfit gets released for a gacha.
That's never going to work. There's no way we could just stop making alt-skin tags. We would be constantly deleting new tags and trying to explain to people that that new costume that has 100 posts in less than a week can't have a new tag despite the hundreds of identical pre-existing tags. And then inevitably we'd have to break this new asinine rule and make a tag for that other costume that got 1000 posts in less than a week because it's just too popular not to, while explaining to people that this is just an arbitrary exception and all those other costumes still can't have their own tags.
blindVigil said:
On top of all the arguing about "this skin is too "generic", it can't have a tag, but that other skin is "unique", it should get a tag."
Because skins, like every single "alternate outfit", of whichever copyright, whether gacha or not, should only be tagged when necessary instead of defaulting to "if it exists then it automatically get tags".
A whitelist, not a blacklist, so to speak.
blindVigil said:
I dunno what clothing stores you go to that you could actually buy even a 10th of the outfits seen in AL/AK/Whatever. Some of the swimsuits maybe.
The swimsuits, the cocktail dresses, some of the formal wear, sportwear...
But principally the swimsuits because the others might be inconsistently tagged while swimsuits should always be tagged swimsuits (barring dumb naming conventions like calling something that isn't a swimsuit a "swimsuit" like Artoria's).
blindVigil said:
That's never going to work. There's no way we could just stop making alt-skin tags. We would be constantly deleting new tags and trying to explain to people that that new costume that has 100 posts in less than a week can't have a new tag despite the hundreds of identical pre-existing tags. And then inevitably we'd have to break this new asinine rule and make a tag for that other costume that got 1000 posts in less than a week because it's just too popular not to, while explaining to people that this is just an arbitrary exception and all those other costumes still can't have their own tags.
Working totally fine for the Cygames/DMM gachas like Idolmaster, Kantai Collection, Granblue Fantasy and Umamusume. For years. Though granted some of the specific skins probably need their own "chartags", but that should be done on a case-by-case basis instead of defaulting to "new tag whenever a new skin gets released including for cases when there's no official name set in stone yet".
Working fine for all the alternate outfits for anime and manga and other game copyrights, for that matter.
It's a bandwagon effect that started from F/GO then to Azur Lane then to most other Chinese gachas. A few people started doing so then everyone else followed. Previously, chartags/alt characters/etc. where mostly only created when necessary instead of being immediately slapped on the moment a new skin popped.
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