Cleanup or merge: wizard_hat, witch_hat

Edit: changed title to better reflect content of discussion

- Original post: -
Aliasing wizard_hat -> witch_hat.

Reason: Visually the same thing.

I'd argue about the presence or lack of a rim, but none of those feature a rimless one.

T5J8F8 said: I'd argue about the presence or lack of a rim, but none of those feature a rimless one.

Mima's sorta is.

I'd say just edit those that have a brim to witch_hat.

Just looking around there does seem to be a few different styles.
Brimless: post #148502, post #330151
Straight Brimmed: post #416241, post #176362, post #165546, post #159668, post #323382
Downward Brimmed: post #341126, post #239281, post #260582, post #272691, post #278533 (male wearer in this post).

NWF_Renim said:
I'd say just edit those that have a brim to witch_hat.

Lillet from Grimgrimoire is a witch and her hat has no brim...I don't want anything to happen to my witch_hat search =P

post #405799

I don't see where I said to mess with those currently tagged witch_hat, merely meant that we could neatly clean out the wizard_hat tag (all but 1 has a brim) and potentially use it for something else.

Additionally is Lillet Blan really a witch? I thought she was a wizard/sorcerer. Wikipedia says she wants to become a "great sorceress," while the English game manual says that she wants to become a "great magician."

NWF_Renim said:
I don't see where I said to mess with those currently tagged witch_hat...

You suggested editing wizard_hats that have a brim to witch_hat -- but witch_hat currently also contains brimless hats. If you use the presence of a brim as the criterion to admit posts into witch_hat, that seems to imply that (conversely) brimless hats under witch_hat should be moved out. Hence PoringSmasher's concern.

It does seems logical to me to make a distinction between brimmed and brimless hats, though sifting through 2500+ witch hats will be quite an undertaking. Mass editing using character names to filter posts might help, but there are always exceptions (e.g. post #412558).

On the other hand, I'm just as perfectly content to just lump all these hats under one tag -- which is why I proposed the alias in the first place.

Also, magician's_hat is also relevant, though that's just a small handful of brimmed hats that I think we all can agree should fall under witch_hat.

r0d3n7z said:
You suggested editing wizard_hats that have a brim to witch_hat -- but witch_hat currently also contains brimless hats. If you use the presence of a brim as the criterion to admit posts into witch_hat, that seems to imply that (conversely) brimless hats under witch_hat should be moved out. Hence PoringSmasher's concern.

Well seeing as the only post under wizard_hat that is brimless is one depicting Mima. Out of her 169 posts only one is tagged witch_hat and in that one she's not wearing her normal hat, I think it was a good criterion.

I find a problem with your alias though. Witch general implies the character is female, if there is a wizard depicted who is male how would someone label their hat? If we're going to merge the two, then I'd say that a gender neutral tag be more appropriate, since few people would actually use witch_hat to describe the hat of a male wizard.

Right now the only results for witch_hat male are male characters who are either genderswaps or crossdressing as a witch.

Not really of use, but google image search of witch hat and wizard hat would suggest that "wizard hat" is more general. It included images that were both brimmed and brimless, while witch hat results seemed all brimmed.

While LotR has taught me that "witch" can be gender-neutral, the movies have also put forth that wizard hats can have a brim (much as it screws with Gandolf's massive eyebrows).

T5J8F8 said:
Gandolf

LotR has taught you nothing.

...shit! Prolly mixing it up with some similarly-named VG character (one of the PS2 CVs, I believe).

"I put on my robe and witch hat" doesn't have the same ring to it. I'm for keeping them separate.

I know I'm happy for 'em, but what about an implication, wizard_hat as a subset of witch_hats?

Because shouldn't it be the reverse? witch_hat being a subset of wizard_hat.

Just because one tag has a ton more images than another doesn't by default make it the logical dominate tag. If that was true we'd have had ninja aliased to kunoichi instead of the reverse long ago.

Ok, seems the most agreeable solution proposed so far is to do away with wizard_hat entirely and edit all the brimmed ones into witch_hat, except post #365497 which simply loses the wizard_hat tag. No alias or implication.

witch_hat will thus cover pointy, conical hats that are fairly tall, may be rigid or floppy, brimmed or brimless (to accommodate lillet_blan and eruka_frog), and usually black or dark-colored. Gender of the wearer doesn't matter -- which isn't a big problem anyway, since as already observed, there are really few males wearing witch hats, most of which are crossdress/genderswap.

I'll make the edits in a day or two if there are no further issues by then.

The magician's_hats have been taken care of.

Related: yugioh witch_hat look very different from the rest. Untag?

I don't like the idea of connecting the two at all, they are complete distinctly different hats.

Why do we want to connect them to begin with, other than through both being implicated to "hat"?

I'm also against merging them, though I don't feel super strongly about it. I think keeping the semantic differences between the two might be useful.

r0d3n7z said:
except post #365497 which simply loses the wizard_hat tag. No alias or implication.

Why untag it? I don't see any reason to untag it, especially since wizard_hat really does go with the design of the hat. Mima's hat imo would fit perfectly under a wizard_hat tag, especially because it has a pattern on it.

r0d3n7z said:
witch_hat will thus cover pointy, conical hats that are fairly tall, may be rigid or floppy, brimmed or brimless (to accommodate lillet_blan and eruka_frog), and usually black or dark-colored.

I'll argue again against including brimless. The stereotypical witch hat is brimmed, you're only including brimless not because of the hat but because of the wearer of the hat. If it wasn't known that the character was a "witch" then you wouldn't have any argument that hat itself was a witch's hat, because by itself the hat alone does not give off enough impression that it is a witch's hat. In the majority of the images of Eruka_Frog and all of the images of Lillet_Blan could you honestly say that "that's a witch's hat" if you took the character out of the picture? The answer would be "no."

Oh man...I had somehow forgotten Eruka, that would have sucked. I'd still say hers is a witch hat though, easily. Not just because she is for sure a witch, but it's got that unnatural look, well, the "frog face" I mean.

So wizard's hats need to look natural? I think I'd be happier with the brimless = wizard, brimmed = witch distinction. Sure you get swap-over, but you would also if you merged wizard hats into witches.