Donmai

Borders and frames

Posted under Tags

7nik

We have the border tag for images with a border along its sides. There are tags for different border colors and patterns, though only the former implement the border tag.
Also, we have the picture frame tag applied to the frame of picture (object) in an image. I guess it applies to framed inner images as well, e.g. post #3100696, post #1363400.

And, finally, the frame tag but its wiki says

Used when an image appears to be bordered by a photo frame and/or matte.

Can also be used when a photograph depicted within the actual image is held within a frame

The first case could make it to be a certain type of border tag if not the matte. But the second case (and putting the tag to any type of border) turned the tag into the scrapyard of the two tags above.

In additional, there are some unclear tags:
windowboxed - what is the difference from border and color_border?
Tags framed and framed image even don't have wiki.

My own thoughts:
Use the border for solid colors and simple patterns while the inner shape of the border is rectangular.
The picture frame leave as is.
Use frame for images framed by a complex (lace, film, heart) border or detached frame (post #4149385).

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7nik

ion288 said:

I suggest moving frame to framed image as it is slightly more intuitive that its the whole image that is framed.

Yeah, sounds nice.

ion288 said:

Arent windowboxed generally a lot thicker than border?

Then it'd better name it thick border.
Maybe tag borders of different widths, which don't match with image aspect ratio, as windowboxed? post #4176105, post #3207952, post #3242987

Also:

Should be a simple round/oval frame (post #4098691) tagged as the border? what about rough post #1878388, post #1845467, post #2950163, or tilted post #2928052, post #2627721?

Sometimes picture frame frames a major part of the scene: post #4078572, post #4195631, post #4097024, post #3956454, post #4177857, post #3875604 Maybe tag them as empty picture frame?

Scans (post #4200640, post #3176578, post #3176543) often have some sort of border with a text, should it be tagged as border or frame?

post #3194377, post #3193838, post #3191666 counts as a framed image?

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nonamethanks

I don't agree with merging them, it'd make it impossible to find them given the amount of monochrome borders in comparison (not that it isn't already hard given mistags).
A lot of the posts under frame are just normal borders, imo that tag should be for actual complex frames, not just a white border like post #4216933.

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7nik

nonamethanks said:

I don't agree with merging them, it'd make it impossible to find them given the amount of monochrome borders in comparison (not that it isn't already hard given mistags).

We can make framed image an umbrella tag for them and do not add any of them in ambiguous cases.

Anyway, we need more opinions and at least somebody's answers to the questions above.

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BrokenEagle98

When I think of image borders, I think of something that is relatively thin compared to the image. At some point it stops becoming a border and starts being something like a picture mat (Wikipedia: Mat), though we can call it frame.

I'm just spit-balling an idea, but it should be a border when all of it's sides are something like less than 5-10% of the smallest image dimension.

I'm not expecting user's to measure an image every time they upload, but once someone gets a general idea of the different sizes, it should be easy enough to eyeball it. I'm leaning more towards 10% myself, but that can be debated.

Then have something like the following for a tagging system:

  • Borders:
  • Frames:
    • COLOR_frame
    • PATTERN_frame
    • simple_frame
    • uneven_frame (when there are 2 differently-sized groups of opposing sides)
    • mismatched_frame (when there is 1 group or less of matching sides)
    • outside_frame (when an inner object crosses the inner border of the frame)
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7nik

I'm just spit-balling an idea, but it should be a border when all of it's sides are something like less than 5-10% of the smallest image dimension.

Too tricky.
*looks at absolute border thickness of the previews*
For me, they are nearly the same and quite close to post #3328190.

simple_frame??

For a physical picture, I'd say the frame goes around the picture and is easily detachable, while the border goes along the inside of the edge and is applied to the canvas.
But I don't have any good idea of how to apply it to digital images.
The more I think about how to distinguish them the more I prefer merging.

So, borders are relatively thin, filled with one color or pattern, without special decorations of corners or mid sides. Can be detached from the edge or multilayer.
Frames are either thick (mat/matte) or highly decorated, may have different decorations of corners and mid sides. Also can be detached from the edge.
Likely any round/oval (post #4098691), rough (post #2920690), tilted (post #2928052) ones should be tagged as the frame.
For mat/matte I'd say it should be thicker than those two examples. Maybe, on small preview, wide than the cursor.
And not sure whether mat/matter should be the type of frame or border.

Updated

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nonamethanks

My proposal:

  • alias windowboxed to border
  • split picture frame and frame cleanly into two tags, one for frames inside the picture, another for frames around the picture. Only question is, what to name each tag, because right now they kind of mix into each other
  • imply the frame tag (or its equivalent if we decide to change its name) to border
  • use frame for complex borders, that is, anything that is not a simple monochrome border. Shape doesn't count, so rough (post #1878388), oval (post #3158777) and similar borders still use border instead of frame
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7nik

I'm ok with this proposal.

So, action to do:

Do we need such tags as detached_border, uneven_border (when borders have different thickness), and empty_picture_frame?

Updated

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evazion

Unbreakable said:

I was actually considering suggesting aliasing it to black border (since most pillar and windowboxes are black) but aliasing it to the general border tag is probably better.

I would agree with this but there's still too much mistagging even after I tried to clean windowboxed up.

nonamethanks said:

My proposal:

  • alias windowboxed to border
  • split picture frame and frame cleanly into two tags, one for frames inside the picture, another for frames around the picture. Only question is, what to name each tag, because right now they kind of mix into each other
  • imply the frame tag (or its equivalent if we decide to change its name) to border
  • use frame for complex borders, that is, anything that is not a simple monochrome border. Shape doesn't count, so rough (post #1878388), oval (post #3158777) and similar borders still use border instead of frame

I generally agree with this, except I don't know about implying framed to border. Normally border is only for simple solid color borders. The fact that we have all these <color>_border tags suggests that border is meant only for solid colors.

The other thing is that if we're going to call it framed, then we should probably rename border to bordered too.

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7nik

I already hardly thought about distinguishing between the border and frame. And came to the conclusion that there must be some umbrella tag. Maybe make the umbrella tag framing (couldn't find a third word to framing/bordering) and rename framed to traditional/classic framing (though I afraid people will confuse it with picture frame).

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