At the moment, there's no standard on how to deal with fanart of popular fanworks. This is going to be mainly a touhou-centric thing i believe, although other copyrights may apply.
All of these examples have accompanying Pixiv tags and fanworks uploaded on Danbooru. What should the standard for them be? I'd personally be in favour of making a copyright tag for them, that way when artists add the respective tag on pixiv it pops out in Danbooru's translated tag lists.
It seems that lesser/old copyrights get the copyright tag treatment (maybe because they pass under the radar?), while the newer ones get the pool treatment? I think a consensus should be reached.
If they are significant enough that they get their own fanart they should get a copyright tag. We've done the same for arai-san mansion too recently. The main series has its own pool so that it can be read sequentially, and every other derivative work gets the copyright tag to distinguish it from generic kemono friends fanwork.
pool #5530 is a series on itself, does it have any fanart? For pool #5040, if it's truly references to a specific video then they should get their own tag (something like "osana reimu").
Partially related, but I am reminded of when I asked whether contests should get tags or pools (topic #17355), as a tag would allow them to make use of "Other Names", to make it easier to connect them to their (hash)tags on other websites.
For fanart of popular fanworks, the real popular ones are likely to have (hash)tags indicating that they are based on a given work (the Osana Reimu pool even including the relevant Pixiv tag, while heartattack provided the tag for Tenco's Story), and if they've gotten popular enough to warrant such a tag, then to me it would make sense to give them a corresponding copytag (it'd make more sense than giving one to contests, since contests don't necessarily add/change anything about the given copyright, while fanworks might).
Of course, if pools had their own equivalent of Other Names, that might change the discussion somewhat, but they don't.
Tags are free. There is no harm in creating copyright tags for popular fanworks. Ganbare Douki-chan is another example of something that started as a pool by a single artist then grew into a copyright.
After this BUR passes, i'm gonna make a separate BUR for
alias koishi_komeiji's_heart_throbbing_adventure -> Komeiji Koishi No Dokidoki Daibouken
All the ones i could find at the moment. Tentative tag names, please don't approve as is.
Since the english version is an unofficial title of a fanwork, maybe the japanese tag name for KKHTA is better than the english name. On the other hand, noone knows it's original japanese name in the western fandom, so i'm not sure if this is gonna be a case similar to The Legend of Zelda et similia. Looks like Tag Dream has only been translated on Danbooru, so i'm not sure whether to change it's name to the japanese one. Same reasoning as above applies. Tenco's Story is going to need some manual gardening, since it's fanworks have not been previously grouped up.
I feel like this is going to make a mess with all the various copyright tags in the long run if not kept in check. Maybe adding a _(fanwork) modifier could help distinguish fanwork tags from official ones? (See also: topic #17506)
So why are we doing this again? I really don't get Why we're doing this unless we want more confusion as it's going to get a massive amount of copyright tags and devalue the pool system as this is extremely arbitrary as how much fanart results in making a new copyright tag
But we have examples of something popular with large amounts of fanart getting a pool dedicated to it with the "Touhou - Tag Dream Tribute" pool pool #1174
Why not just make more pools instead?
Or are we going to throw away pools entirely as the entire "Make every fanwork a copyright" just creates more confusion with works with many entries (and Touhou already has an godawful issue of fan works being mistaken for official works...).
I guess we'll put daily comics as their own copyright then since we have things like Touhou - Hang in There Kogasa-san (Mizuki Hitoshi) pool #2420 which has more than 180 pages of updates (with standard search settings) or Touhou - 4koma (Tani Takeshi) pool #2983 which has 3283 images (165 pages of pool) as of this post and thus must be more worthy of a copyright tag than the tiny as pools mentioned earlier.
Just put the older popular fanworks into the pool system as standardization. Pools exist for a reason.
After all this just reeks of a person who wants their favorite fanworks getting favorable treatment. I'm firmly against it.
After this BUR passes, i'm gonna make a separate BUR for
alias koishi_komeiji's_heart_throbbing_adventure -> Komeiji Koishi No Dokidoki Daibouken
Since the english version is an unofficial title of a fanwork, maybe the japanese tag name for KKHTA is better than the english name. On the other hand, noone knows it's original japanese name in the western fandom, so i'm not sure if this is gonna be a case similar to The Legend of Zelda et similia. Looks like Tag Dream has only been translated on Danbooru, so i'm not sure whether to change it's name to the japanese one. Same reasoning as above applies. Tenco's Story is going to need some manual gardening, since it's fanworks have not been previously grouped up.
I think the English names for KKHTA and Tag Dream should the main tags. As you said, no one in the west actually knows their original Japanese titles, this is the first time I've even seen the Japanese title for KKHTA. The pool has been named "Koishi Komeiji's Heart-throbbing Adventure" since the beginning, using the Japanese title now is just going to confuse people. Aliasing the JP titles to the EN titles should be good enough.
I guess we'll put daily comics as their own copyright then since we have things like Touhou - Hang in There Kogasa-san (Mizuki Hitoshi) pool #2420 which has more than 180 pages of updates (with standard search settings) or Touhou - 4koma (Tani Takeshi) pool #2983 which has 3283 images (165 pages of pool) as of this post and thus must be more worthy of a copyright tag than the tiny as pools mentioned earlier.
Do those two comics even get fanart? That's the whole point of this thread. Fanworks that are so popular and recognizable that other artists have produced a healthy amount of fanart of the fanworks. Mizuki's comic is just a self-insert diary, nothing about it is really recognizable, and the only thing unique to Tani's series is the tall Yukkuris, which weren't even created by him in the first place.
Several fanworks already have their own copyright tags, not just within Touhou. Plenty of Touhou fan games have copyright tags, as well as the Touhou fanimes, I believe. I guess we should just nuke all of those?
Pools are meant for two things: series meant to be read in a specific order (because of the failings of the parent/children system) or artbooks/similar ordered releases, and concepts that don't have a truly objective definition and would end up with users warring over their addition and removal to posts (like the various Adorable pools).
In both of those cases, not using pools would be inferior to using them. Those daily comics you mentioned are exactly that, comics, so they get a pool because it allows one to read them in the order they were created.
Fanworks about other fanworks fit into neither of the above categories, so they should be tags, because as evazion said tags are free. They are meant to be the default way to categorize pictures on danbooru, and have a number of advantages pools don't. One example that immediately comes to mind is copytags:1 and similar applications.
After all this just reeks of a person who wants their favorite fanworks getting favorable treatment. I'm firmly against it.
Just to defend myself on this - i never heard of half of these fanworks before, and the other half i don't particularly care about them. (Also i asked if we could also convert copytags in pools)
nonamethanks said:
They are meant to be the default way to categorize pictures on danbooru, and have a number of advantages pools don't. One example that immediately comes to mind is copytags:1 and similar applications.
Which is useless for series which have more than 2 or 3 copytags under each post, such as fate_(series) or fire_emblem. Copytag bloat is a thing that has already started to set foot into Danbooru, and it may be best to start thinking on how to keep it in check.
+1 Tags are significantly better in many ways that have already been mentioned.
Besides those, they are also technically more advantageous, since tag information resides on the post, whereas pool information resides separately, which can cause delays on pool/post searches. Pools also start to get clunky the larger they get, which places a limit on how large they can grow. Additionally, pools are not as easy or straightforward to edit as tags, which hinders gardening efforts. Finally, pools lack an other_names field, which makes it impossible (mostly) to translate the terminology used on other sites for those taggable concepts.
About the only advantage of pools is that they are orderable. That's it. The thing about subjective tags being made into pools was more of a compromise to avoid debates on which information is savable (objective, taggable) and which information is not (subjective, poolable).
TL;DR Basically, we should be using tags whenever possible.
Changed KKHTA's tag to it's english name for ease of search.
Username_Hidden said:
I feel like this is going to make a mess with all the various copyright tags in the long run if not kept in check. Maybe adding a _(fanwork) modifier could help distinguish fanwork tags from official ones? (See also: topic #17506)
An option would be to add the artists' names to the copyrights, similar to how we deal with OCs.
