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I feel like Danbooru is good in tagging, quality and "professionalism", but Gelbooru and Sankaku have definitely more content, despite being tagged in a worse manner (especially the latter).
All of them have ups and downs, I'm on Danbooru just because it's not just focused on porn like other sites.
But yeah, this discussion is off-topic. Let's go back on discussing what to do.
I'm too tired to debate this, but you clearly knew the context of which I was speaking within -- I was saying that those sites better handle **the responsibility of archiving paywalled content**, as per Dysprosium's comment.
Within the context of Danbooru's tagging system? Hell yeah it sucks. Of course it sucks. Those kinds of things were never built into the system because that's not what people go there for. Danbooru is a gallery, not a piracy site. Of course we have more fine-grained control over what posts are tagged and what not. On yiff and sites like it, it's just a matter of knowing which creator you want rewards from and literally copypasting their name or patreon id in.
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Danbooru is a gallery, not a piracy site.
It might not be our primary purpose, but Danbooru is definitely also a piracy site. We don't own any of the art on this site and trying to convince each other with pats in the back that it's not the case won't change the truth. The vast majority of the content under doujinshi, game cg, scan etc is pirated, as said before. That's ~117k posts, aka 2% of the site's posts, compared to paid rewards, which are actually an order of magnitude lower (0.2% of the site's content). All the stuff sold at Comiket, Reitaisai etc that is subsequently reuploaded nowadays is also available via places like DLSite & co, and reuploading it "robs" an artist of income in the same way that uploading patreon rewards does.
It might be a hard pill to swallow given how much of that is touhou and other content around which this site is centered, but ignoring it while crying piracy for paid rewards is nothing short of hypocrisy.
Just for the record, we have:
This isn't even considering the ones who are unsourced, since uploaders often prefer to leave the source field blank than write exhentai/yande.re on it.
At the end of the day, most japanese artists view Danbooru in the same way they might see some shitty reposting site like funnyjunk or 9gag, it makes no difference for them whether we have their paid content or just anything in general, as seen by how many artists are banned without even having a single paid reward, simply because this is an English site and they don't care to hear reasoning.
Mass banning a tag certainly won't improve our standing in the community, especially since we're already seen as the better alternative, when sites like Gelbooru actively refuse to remove content unless you hit them with a DMCA.
The status quo has worked perfectly fine so far, I don't see the point of changing it given that no other site like Danbooru has done such a proactive move of this scale, and it'll just create headaches for us given that we'll become more liable if we take on trying to police the uploaded content to this level (especially if the horrible idea of making policing them mod+ happens, as we have one and a half active mods on good weeks).
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skylightcrystal said:
So when they do that the image ceases to be a paid reward and become fine to upload. I fail to see what the problem is here. And it's far better to allow the artist to decide when (and if) to make an image freely available than for us to slap some arbitrary time limit that will be earlier than some artists and later than others.
I forgot to reply to this, but:
As it works right now, posts are just tagged paid_reward with no regard of whether they become free at a later date or some artist doesn't care about reposts (hews, etc). The tag was never supposed to be extremely accurate. It can be compared to tags like commission - a good amount of posts are tagged, but there's an unspecified, possibly very large amount of other posts that lack it because like the other informative meta tags it was never supposed to have 100% coverage - it's simply impossible due to the nature of the tag.
And there is a massive amount of paid contents currently not tagged that came from yande.re. A good portion can be found under height:>3000 source:*yande.re* -scan -paid_reward or height:>3000 source:none -scan -paid_reward. There's currently no way to tell for sure unless you go through every single post of each artist's patreon/fantia/enty/etc to verify, since yande.re as said before doesn't care as much as we do about sourcing images. And of course you wouldn't be able to be 100% sure unless you had access to all their paid posts, but you'd HAVE to be 100% sure since now we're talking about actually completely getting rid of these posts instead of just setting them for gold+, so there'd be no room for mistakes.
.grey said:
There.Are.
Better.
Sites.
feline lump said:
There are significantly more active and comprehensive sites for archival of paid rewards, to the extent that Danbooru not hosting them wouldn't jeopardize their existence online.
Now this is strange.
I have to wonder, despite being so against the idea of paid rewards being distributed on Danbooru, some of you seem quite keen on the existence and knowledge behind obtaining them outside of Danbooru. Does the anti-piracy morality of some of these Danbooru mods only extend so far as within Danbooru? If you truly believed how wrong it is to re-upload paid content on Danbooru, why are you so okay with it on third party sites, even advocating their usage, over Danbooru? If you know about them, shouldn't you be outing these sites to the public to expose them? Telling the artists about the existence of these sites? Get them DMCAed? Fight the good fight, as some of you are so keen on doing on Danbooru?
Or do you just want to feel less guilty about using Danbooru for some reason?
Do you feel less guilty obtaining pirated content outside of Danbooru, or letting said third-party sites exists unchallenged?
If the end goal is to simply restrict Danbooru to its detriment, just so some mods here can feel better about using Danbooru, I suppose that's that. If the morality against pirated content only goes so far within your own community circle, I wonder just how much you actually believe in it.
If you feel me attacking your beliefs is a bit too personal, it's these beliefs that are being pushed onto Danbooru in the first place. I think it's relevant, and I'm genuinely baffled by the selective morality against paid content being uploaded "here", but not "anywhere else."
What's making Danbooru so much more special than these other sites to warrant "special moral treatment?" Is it a feeling of moral superiority?
Is Danbooru only the beginning? Will you start chasing these third-party sites next, as is the moral duty? Or are you satisfied with just Danbooru being the good boy?
.grey said:
Danbooru only keeps images; a lot of paid rewards you might be seeing are coming from PSD/clip files, which we absolutely don't handle.
We also handle .mp4s, although up to a size limit.
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Now this is strange.
I have to wonder, despite being so against the idea of paid rewards being distributed on Danbooru, you seem quite keen on the existence and knowledge behind obtaining them outside of Danbooru. Does the anti-piracy morality of some of these Danbooru mods only extend so far as within Danbooru? If you truly believed how wrong it is to re-upload pirated content on Danbooru, why are you so okay with it on third party sites, even advocating their usage, over Danbooru? If you know about them, shouldn't you be outing these sites to the public to expose them? Telling the artists about the existence of these sites? Get them DMCAed? Fight the good fight, as some of you are so keen on doing on Danbooru?
Or do you guys just want to feel less guilty about using Danbooru for some reason?
Do you guys feel less guilty obtaining pirated content outside of Danbooru, or letting said third-party sites exists unchallenged?If the end goal is to simply restrict Danbooru to its detriment, just so some mods here can feel better about using Danbooru, I suppose that's that. If your morality against pirated content only goes so far within your own community circle, I wonder just how much you actually believe in it.
If you feel me attacking your beliefs is a bit too personal, it's these beliefs that are being pushed onto Danbooru in the first place. I think it's relevant, and I'm genuinely baffled by the selective morality against paid content being uploaded "here", but not "anywhere else."
What's making Danbooru so much more special than these other sites to warrant "special moral treatment?" Is it a feeling of moral superiority?
@Dysprosium Man, you are... just irritating. This is inflammatory as hell.
I keep saying it, but yes I'm against paid rewards on Danbooru because I just don't think it's the right site for it, and yet you keep egging on with these kinds of remarks. People that know where to find it can and will be able to find it, I'm absolutely sure. You're looking at one of the dirty pirates that spends over $100 USD a month for this kinda stuff. Is that a lot among several creators? Probably not, but I feel like I'm being put on the spot here.
So, you know what? You're right. Let's just continue to upload paid rewards like who cares. Just for you, I might even challenge the status quo for a single day. And I know you winning this will make you more happy than it will me, so so be it.
Nothing ever changes on this site anyway. I need a break.
EDIT: Actually, you know what I disagree with most of all? That "banned content" is gated behind a $20 membership. If it were all free, I would have absolutely 0 qualms about uploading it. But sue me for thinking that charging to see "banned" paywall content is wrong, right?
EDIT 2:
The status quo has worked perfectly fine so far, I don't see the point of changing it given that no other site like Danbooru has done such a proactive move of this scale, and it'll just create headaches for us given that we'll become more liable if we take on trying to police the uploaded content to this level (especially if the horrible idea of making policing them mod+ happens, as we have one and a half active mods on good weeks).
I wanted to point out that I still disagree with it -- see below. And I've changed my mind about danbooru not being a "piracy" site, because with that evidence, you're right. It absolutely is.
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This is going into a separate post because I know someone's trying to pull an Emperor Palpatine on me, but if I have to sum it up, I want to just get this shit straight. I've already elaborated a lot on my position in forum #168815, but this is just so people stop trying to mangle my words or make me question my morals just so they can see me break.
When you go to sites like yiff, you literally don't have to pay anything to download content en-masse, and it is within their rights to ignore any takedown requests (whether informal requests or formal DMCA filing notices). On **danbooru**, when an artist's content either gets selectively banned or entirely banned, you can just pay a measly $20 membership fee and view all of that content you *would* have had to pay for or view on another site, paywall piracy site, yandere or otherwise.
Do you get what I'm saying here? Either we're straight piracy, or we try to moderate it and keep things chill as they are. The only reason that the banned system even exists is just for a damn **facade**! We're deceiving creators and **selling** our users a membership to their paid content!
That I refuse to ever think is okay. It absolutely isn't. E-H doesn't charge a damn membership to view unlisted content, why do we?
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I think evasion's proposed rules will work fine, really. Maybe make a different tag or status just to handle it easier, and make a short list somewhere of artists who would be exceptions.
Most of the paid rewards have some free version available anyway, and if the current system leads to most users not finding art from some prolific artists (including some official art), it's probably detrimental to Danbooru as is, so I think it's reasonable to change it - slight as it may be.
As distasteful as I might find it to still be offering paid memberships to view existing paid rewards, I'm also in favor of evazion's proposal of at least banning future paid_reward uploads (if only for the fact that such middle ground appears to be the limit in terms of what evazion is willing to enforce).
Here's how it's going to work:
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How does this apply to "paid previews" which aren't free, but also aren't the full-resolution paid rewards distributed by the artist? (Most of moisture_(chichi)'s "paid rewards" are actually this, paid previews, the actual rewards are like 2x the resolution).
CodeKyuubi said:
How does this apply to "paid previews" which aren't free, but also aren't the full-resolution paid rewards distributed by the artist? (Most of moisture_(chichi)'s "paid rewards" are actually this, paid previews, the actual rewards are like 2x the resolution).
Isn't that still basically just a paid reward?
CodeKyuubi said:
How does this apply to "paid previews" which aren't free, but also aren't the full-resolution paid rewards distributed by the artist? (Most of moisture_(chichi)'s "paid rewards" are actually this, paid previews, the actual rewards are like 2x the resolution).
If it can be freely accessed (i.e. no paywall) it's not a paid reward.
This can't be abused, right?
People maliciously adding paid_reward to stuff won't get it banned in post, right?
The expected conditions look quite logical, although now it all comes down to indicating and checking the source of the picture. Without it, there is a risk of catching a ban if the picture is from a paid source after reposting from another site (for example, yandere).
I can already see how some users will try to bypass the ban with the first warning by downloading the image first to another site without specifying the source (imgur, yandere, etc) and specify this download as the source for danbooru.
Probably, it will be necessary to pay attention to the source of the image, including reconciliation of the publication time on different sites. Perhaps, based on this, a list of prohibited sources will be compiled where the rights of the authors are clearly violated by downloading paid rewards.
____
Of course, this is only the option I have proposed, which is partly already provided through comparison with the publicly available free version of the work. So let's look into the future with an eye to the past.
Jigsy said:
This can't be abused, right?
The possibility is always there for potential abuses. But as evazion had said (or implied), this is meant to discourage the uploaders themselves from applying the tags and letting the approval staff handle the tagging because the "paid reward" tag would carry a lot more weight with these amendments. Although based from experience, such time lags between upload and application of tag means anyone with fast hands would catch these uploaded paid rewards and hit the "view full size" button before it gets "hidden" by the proposed tag system.
evazion said:
...
- Existing paid rewards won't be banned. They will only be banned if the artist requests them to be banned.
- Suspected paid rewards can be reported in the post ban thread (topic #10525).
...
- If the artist themselves later releases the work for free, it can be unbanned.
- If the artist says their work is okay to share, but doesn't actually release it themselves, then it will stay banned.
On this note, what about instances like Hews where they put the fullres versions on patreon within 2 weeks to a month of pixiv/twitter publication and they already said beforehand that they're fine with that? Would it still need to be routed to the post ban thread too? (because that's going to be somewhat time-consuming if someone uploaded any of these works under these circumstances and we'd have to deliberate them one-by-one)
ArcieA said:
On this note, what about instances like Hews where they put the fullres versions on patreon within 2 weeks to a month of pixiv/twitter publication and they already said beforehand that they're fine with that? Would it still need to be routed to the post ban thread too? (because that's going to be somewhat time-consuming if someone uploaded any of these works under these circumstances and we'd have to deliberate them one-by-one)
Based on this point,
evazion said:
- If the artist says their work is okay to share, but doesn't actually release it themselves, then it will stay banned.
if the fullres works in question are behind a paywall, I'd say yes, unless they themselves publicly release said works.
ArcieA said:
The possibility is always there for potential abuses. But as evazion had said (or implied), this is meant to discourage the uploaders themselves from applying the tags and letting the approval staff handle the tagging because the "paid reward" tag would carry a lot more weight with these amendments. Although based from experience, such time lags between upload and application of tag means anyone with fast hands would catch these uploaded paid rewards and hit the "view full size" button before it gets "hidden" by the proposed tag system.
This system is not to discourage tagging paid rewards as paid rewards, the intent is to discourage people from uploading paid rewards at all. Uploading a paid reward without tagging it is a punishable offense, uploading a paid reward at all is a punishable offense if it can reasonably be proven that either of these things were done intentionally. We do not want people not tagging paid rewards, we don't want them being uploaded at all.
As evazion said, you can only cry ignorant so many times before it stops being accepted as an excuse.
On this note, what about instances like Hews where they put the fullres versions on patreon within 2 weeks to a month of pixiv/twitter publication and they already said beforehand that they're fine with that? Would it still need to be routed to the post ban thread too? (because that's going to be somewhat time-consuming if someone uploaded any of these works under these circumstances and we'd have to deliberate them one-by-one)
If you mean posting something to pixiv/twitter and then later posting a larger res version of it to patreon as a reward, then I would assume the original, lower res image would be acceptable to upload, and wouldn't be a paid reward for fairly obvious reasons, but uploading the larger res version released on patreon would not be allowed.
That's what I would assume, anyway. Doesn't matter if the artist says it's okay though, according to this:
•If the artist says their work is okay to share, but doesn't actually release it themselves, then it will stay banned.
•Posts that are on Patreon but are free to the public aren't paid rewards.
evazion said:
Here's how it's going to work:
- Uploading paid rewards will be against the rules.
- If you upload a paid reward, you will be warned the first time, then banned the second time.
- If you use throwaway accounts to upload paid rewards, you will be banned.
- If you deliberately upload paid rewards without tagging them, you will be banned. I know you can't always tell if something is a paid reward. There will be tolerance for this. But I don't want to see uploaders, especially builders, uploading obvious paid rewards and thinking they can get away with it by pretending they didn't know.
- If you are a builder, approver, or mod and you break these rules, you will be demoted. I stress this because I know some users won't agree with this and will try to test the system.
- Banned paid rewards will only be visible to Approver-level users.
- For those who aren't familiar with how Danbooru works, approvers are essentially our janitors. They're staff members in charge of approving, deleting, and banning posts. The list of approvers is here.
- Existing paid rewards won't be banned. They will only be banned if the artist requests them to be banned.
- Suspected paid rewards can be reported in the post ban thread (topic #10525).
- Posts will only be banned if we're reasonably sure it's a paid reward. If there's an unsourced post from a known Patreon artist, and it's an uncensored or unusually highres alternate version of a free post, then we can be reasonably sure it's a paid reward.
- If there's reasonable doubt something is a paid reward, it won't be banned.
- If you can provide a source proving a post isn't a paid reward, it won't be banned.
- If the artist themselves later releases the work for free, it can be unbanned.
- If the artist says their work is okay to share, but doesn't actually release it themselves, then it will stay banned.
- Posts that are on Patreon but are free to the public aren't paid rewards.
- Doujins, scans, game CGs, and other such things won't be treated as paid rewards. Only things currently tagged paid reward will be considered paid rewards.
- If a post tagged is paid reward by the uploader, it will automatically be banned on upload. Yes, this means people will stop tagging their uploads. That's going to happen anyway.
- Users can check the post ban log for transparency into what is being banned.
- These rules will go into effect on Monday (2020-07-06).
- The terms of service will be rewritten to include the new rules.
- The upload rules will be moved to a separate upload rules wiki.
- Some of the other upload rules will be revised at the same time.
- I had hoped to change the rules gradually so we wouldn't have too many changes at once, but it seems that's not an option now.
Kinda weird that future paid rewards will be accessible only to Approvers. I mean, if current paid reward won't be banned, and future ones will, what will happen to those paid rewards posts after got banned by mods/janitors? Just stay in the Danbooru database or will be deleted completely in later time? If it's the former, then it's not much different with current situation, because only privileged ones will be able to access it.
Sorry if my question is dumb. I am just a casual poster here and not frequently visiting this site like you guys do. This is my first time seeing a topic this deep on this site.
