The difference is that only Danbooru "staff" will be able to see them, for database purposes. Before that, people could just pay to get access to them.
Posted under General
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Kinda weird that future paid rewards will be accessible only to Approvers. I mean, if current paid reward won't be banned, and future ones will, what will happen to those paid rewards posts after got banned by mods/janitors? Just stay in the Danbooru database or will be deleted completely in later time? If it's the former, then it's not much different with current situation, because only privileged ones will be able to access it.
Something has to be on site so that the duplicate check can happen and prevent people from reuploading the same images. It's restricted to approvers so that there's enough people able to fix mistakes, while at the same time not giving any incentive for uploading those posts because they'll never get a high score or be seen by many people.
Imo it should have been restricted to builders since that's not something you can buy, but the hand was forced so this is the result.
feline_lump said:
So that means an artist can request that their posts be banned, but effectively can't unban their own posts?
Pretty sure this is specifically talking about the auto ban of paid rewards, not bans in general, it's saying an artist has to release it for free at some point for it to be unbanned, just saying it's okay to share their paid rewards isn't good enough. Whether or not this extends to a personal message to the web master I'm not sure, though, but I doubt many artists would bother doing that.
Pretty sure this is specifically talking about the auto ban of paid rewards, not bans in general, it's saying an artist has to release it for free at some point for it to be unbanned, just saying it's okay to share their paid rewards isn't good enough. Whether or not this extends to a personal message to the web master I'm not sure, though, but I doubt many artists would bother doing that.
If an artist specifies that paid rewards are OK to share (implying they won't file a post takedown request), and someone goes to the trouble of proving that, why not unban the posts at that point?
That's the rule evazion decided on, I assume it's somehow simpler that way, rather than making exceptions.
If I had to guess, making exceptions like that means that paid rewards from those handful of artists have to be manually unbanned every time they're uploaded because of the autoban, that or bans are all handled manually. It also complicates the "warning followed by ban" punishment of uploading paid rewards, since if you make such exceptions you can't punish people for it. As well as it could give other users the misconception that all paid rewards are okay to upload, and would require constantly explaining to people the actual rules for them, having a list on hand for artists that are exceptions, and just generally adding even more claims of ignorance by users who are trying to bend the rules.
Admittedly leaving all the current paid rewards alone carries some of these same problems, especially since it looks like people are trying to upload as many of them as they can before the new rules take effect, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. I still think this is better than doing nothing.
If an artist specifies that paid rewards are OK to share (implying they won't file a post takedown request), and someone goes to the trouble of proving that, why not unban the posts at that point?
Because the ban will apply to all posts tagged with paid_reward on upload, so there'd have to be someone constantly monitoring a list of artists to unban them manually. It's not feasible. A whitelist is not realistic either because artists might change their mind at any time (and they have in the past), and we'd be relying on information out there that might not even be up to date anymore.
The point of the old system is that it was up to each artist to contact us in order to get their posts banned, which is exactly how DMCA works. Acting proactively brings an endless amount of problems, some of which you're now discovering yourself. It's why big platform like facebook and google always lobby against it, and why sites like Gelbooru, which claim not to allow paid rewards, never go through with it. It's a mess to have to deal with.
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If I had to guess, making exceptions like that means that paid rewards from those handful of artists have to be manually unbanned every time they're uploaded because of the autoban, that or bans are all handled manually. It also complicates the "warning followed by ban" punishment of uploading paid rewards, since if you make such exceptions you can't punish people for it. As well as it could give other users the misconception that all paid rewards are okay to upload, and would require constantly explaining to people the actual rules for them, having a list on hand for artists that are exceptions, and just generally adding even more claims of ignorance by users who are trying to bend the rules.
This is one reason why codifying a paid reward whitelist into the system itself would be a good idea. It would be the most efficient way of automatically handling this situation while signalling to users which specific artists are exceptions. It makes sense if such unban requests are delayed until an automatic system like this exists, though.
Acting proactively brings an endless amount of problems, some of which you're now discovering yourself. It's why big platform like facebook and google always lobby against it, and why sites like Gelbooru, which claim not to allow paid rewards, never go through with it. It's a mess to have to deal with.
Everything about Danbooru is a chore if you're not passionate about it. Maybe it's not your thing, but processing post whitelist requests sounds totally fine by me.
It's not a matter of it being a chore, it's a matter of a whitelist having to always be up to date immediately, which is impossible because we can't read minds.
No one is asking for a whitelist, or indeed any part of Danbooru, to be updated the nanosecond someone puts something on the internet. If blanket banning paid rewards is the norm, maintaining a whitelist to the best of our ability does no additional harm and allows members to access more content.
feline_lump said:
No one is asking for a whitelist, or indeed any part of Danbooru, to be updated the nanosecond someone puts something on the internet. If blanket banning paid rewards is the norm, maintaining a whitelist to the best of our ability does no additional harm and allows members to access more content.
No need to create use cases with a white list.
In addition to the fact that the artist can change his mind about the distribution of paid works, other situations are also possible. Some options:
- The artist allowed to share the paid work, but he was not aware of the intent of its distribution. However, he is against the spread of work on sites like this. Those. You can share with a friend, but you can’t share. This can only be implied without an open announcement. As a result, the author sees a loss of income and is forced to look for a source of work leakage, and may even refuse to publish works.
- Due to a misunderstanding between the user and the artist, a feeling of having permission was created, but in fact it was not there. This may be due to communication problems in different languages, or for other reasons.
- The artist could forget about his approval.
- The artist talked with a specific user and he was allowed to publish the work, but in the end, permission from something was accepted by other (all) users.
- -_- These are just a few possible reasons and it’s impossible to take everything into account. Including forces moderators (etc.) to check approval and prohibition at the same time to decide the priority of an action.
In this case, you may need a storage system for evidence of permission to publish. False permissions and erroneous permissions in general from other users are not excluded. This is too expensive if the site is not going to sue the artists. Yet banning is easier than allowing.
In this case, you may need a storage system for evidence of permission to publish. False permissions and erroneous permissions in general from other users are not excluded. This is too expensive if the site is not going to sue the artists. Yet banning is easier than allowing.
The type of system being proposed is one where users are allowed to submit whitelist requests, so naturally the requests would be logged somewhere on-site, like in a forum thread. No additional expense needed.
I would hope mods have enough common sense not to approve any requests based on hearsay or unverifiable screencaps. The site errs on the conservative side for a lot of things, after all. This is mostly considering artists that have apparently publicly granted permission for their paid rewards to be reposted; a scenario that was mentioned earlier in the thread.
I've been sort of following this topic since I've noticed there kind of seems to be what I can only describe as a run on paid content for about the past month and wondering what was up with that (cause I don't typically see the exact same paywall content uploaded multiple times and being upvoted very noticeably to the point where it's kind of overtaken the whole popular feature from actual new artwork that isn't sometimes months or even over a year old) followed it to the feedback forum to find kind of unsurprisingly it's because it's been coming up on what is now the final day it'll be allowed.
Realistically it seems like about the best way to handle it going forward and while as a Gold Member I've appreciated being able to view some of this content (not why I bought the gold account, just wanted the extra tag search options and perks and to contribute) it doesn't really sit well with me that some of these artists legitimately don't want it uploaded here and are possibly being cheated out of being able to use their work in a preferred commercial sense.
Like it's basically just simple respect for the artist and their wishes on how their work is intended to be used and I have no problem with that being restricted going forward (especially since again it's being abused so noticeably hard at the moment it actually is what led me to look into if something was going on on the forum and what the word on it was) and can understand not wanting to put in insane man hours finding and deleting all past exampled up banned artist content unless they make a particular request.
Like sometimes I get the vibe from the overall anime/otaku community that a lot of people just really couldn't care less about copyright and the wishes of content creators and will even go out of their way to infringe upon it as a sort of dare (I swear that's my feeling on what I described as the "run on paid content" above, but that apparently stops tonight) so actually quite glad to see the site admins don't play it that way here.
That's it, good stuff basically and sorry for the overly longish post.
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Kaioshin_Sama said:
Like it's basically just simple respect for the artist and their wishes on how their work is intended to be used
It's absurd for any of us to try and claim the moral high ground here when we've all been using, without complaint, a site that permits doujins, scans, etc; and outright ignores the requests in artist's bios not to reupload their work. The legal basis for this decision is perfectly understandable, the moral argument is not. Copyright infringement of paid physical works is just fine and dandy, but if the same content happens to be sold online, now that's crossing the line? How is that anything but pure hypocrisy?
Prinz_Poigen said:
It's absurd for any of us to try and claim the moral high ground here when we've all been using, without complaint, a site that permits doujins, scans, etc; and outright ignores the requests in artist's bios not to reupload their work. The legal basis for this decision is perfectly understandable, the moral argument is not. Copyright infringement of paid physical works is just fine and dandy, but if the same content happens to be sold online, now that's crossing the line? How is that anything but pure hypocrisy?
I don't know what you mean, I've heard plenty of people complain about the site.
Prinz_Poigen said:
It's absurd for any of us to try and claim the moral high ground here when we've all been using, without complaint, a site that permits doujins, scans, etc; and outright ignores the requests in artist's bios not to reupload their work. The legal basis for this decision is perfectly understandable, the moral argument is not. Copyright infringement of paid physical works is just fine and dandy, but if the same content happens to be sold online, now that's crossing the line? How is that anything but pure hypocrisy?
It is very possible for morality to exist in shades of grey, life is rarely ever black-and-white.
CodeKyuubi said:
It is very possible for morality to exist in shades of grey, life is rarely ever black-and-white.
So what makes it not okay to upload paid_reward works but okay to upload everything else that @Prinz_Poigen mentioned?
Sanctity said:
So what makes it not okay to upload paid_reward works but okay to upload everything else that @Prinz_Poigen mentioned?
Nobody said it was okay, just not feasible to stop.
OOZ662 said:
Nobody said it was okay, just not feasible to stop.
The rules says it's okay since you are allowed to upload that kind of content. And why is it more feasible to stop paid_reward upload versus the others?
If this site was 100% against piracy and respecting the wishes of artists, then there are several categories of uploads that would need to be banned. What I don't understand is what makes the paid_reward category so different than the rest that it is the only one banned.
As a side note: while I don't agree with the rule being made, I am glad that it is banning future uploads rather than purging everything.
Sanctity said:
The rules says it's okay since you are allowed to upload that kind of content. And why is it more feasible to stop paid_reward upload versus the others?
If this site was 100% against piracy and respecting the wishes of artists, then there are several categories of uploads that would need to be banned. What I don't understand is what makes the paid_reward category so different than the rest that it is the only one banned.As a side note: while I don't agree with the rule being made, I am glad that it is banning future uploads rather than purging everything.
If Danbooru was 100% against piracy and for respecting the wishes of artists it wouldn't even exist. That's the point. Lines need to be drawn somewhere or Danbooru is just another sketchy hentai repository. A lot of users, or at least very vocal ones, don't agree with paid rewards being uploaded, for various reasons that have already been detailed in this thread.