Tag discussion: christmas_cake

Currently, the tag christmas cake is used for images of "mature women with reference to either their age [usually 25+] or the crippling, desperate loneliness and depression which consumes their existence," in reference to Japanese slang (クリスマスケーキ).

However, doing some light research online indicates that, in Japan itself, the term has largely dissipated and become uncommon as a result of shifting trends, mainly the trend since the 90s of women increasingly remaining unwed, with the average age at first marriage circa 2009 being 28 for women, and 30 for men. Terms such as the wiki's mention of urenokori (売れ残り, うれのこり) have since become more common, though in other circles you might see Chinese terms such as sheng nu or 3S.

Additionally, having this tag occupied by outdated slang means that actual, genuine Christmas cake can't be tagged in the same fashion as strawberry shortcake, swiss rolls or birthday cakes. That's how the equivalent `christmas cake` tag on Pixiv is used.

With all this in mind, it would probably be worthwhile discussing what to do with the tag.

The tag description doesn’t seem to match the actual usage. Only did a quick look, but only two posts seem to actually reference the lonely mature woman definition.

I think the current definition might be better as a pool (if there is even enough images), while the tag would be best for the actual cake.

Yeah, now that you mentioned it, giving the tag a look-through, it seems that it is actually being used for actual christmas cake! Only post #3057940, post #854191, post #588798 and potentially post #478290, really properly fall under the slang definition.

There's likely those posts on Danbooru which fall under the slang definition, but lack the tag currently, but if the grand majority of these tagged posts are just actual christmas cake, it may be worthwhile to just course-correct and just make the tag about the cake.

EDIT: Went ahead and removed christmas cake from those four posts, and changed the Wiki to reflect its food-oriented nature.

NWF_Renim said:

...the tag would be best for the actual cake.

Damian0358 said:

...it may be worthwhile to just course-correct and just make the tag about the cake.

But what exactly is a Christmas cake? The cakes with this tag include strawberry shortcake (post #2222841) and Swiss rolls (post #2240595), so it would seem that we aren't using this tag for a particular type of cake. If the only thing these posts have in common is that they're Christmas-themed images that include cakes, I don't see why we can't just tag them christmas and cake.

Well, I'd like to turn christmas cake ambiguous, make up christmas cake (food) for the food, and christmas cake (slang) for "mature women with reference to either their age [usually 25+] or the crippling, desperate loneliness and depression which consumes their existence"

Sometimes, qualifiers required. Take a look at the black thunder one... This is the food, and this is the slang term for Ikazuchi.

EDIT: Scratch the slang.

iridescent_slime said:

But what exactly is a Christmas cake? The cakes with this tag include strawberry shortcake (post #2222841) and Swiss rolls (post #2240595), so it would seem that we aren't using this tag for a particular type of cake. If the only thing these posts have in common is that they're Christmas-themed images that include cakes, I don't see why we can't just tag them christmas and cake.

No, I'd say that there are several varieties I can think of that would qualify as distinctly Christmas-themed.

• "Merry Christmas" written on it - post #223040, post #3694529, post #1426899, post #1772327, post #2963730
• Christmas ornamentation on it
• Christmas tree - post #2576739, post #223040
• Santa - post #223040
• Holly - post #3694529, post #1772327
• Santa hat, Christmas flower - post #2581742
• Present-themed - post #3778726, post #2963730
• Candy-cane candle - post #3778726

iridescent_slime said:

It would seem that we aren't using this tag for a particular type of cake.

Tags such as post #86575, post #2955734, and post #2955736 aren't necessarily Christmas-themed, yet include Christmas cake.

The Pixpedia article on the matter effectively says that these are cakes that are in of themselves Christmas-coded, with "Santa Claus, reindeer dolls, and holly leaves", using "Fresh cream, bitter chocolate, powdered sugar, etc." to give the impression of snow. So perhaps the examples you named may not be proper examples of that, and may warrant the removal of the tag.

Travley said:

christmas_cake_(slang) for "mature women with reference to either their age [usually 25+] or the crippling, desperate loneliness and depression which consumes their existence"

But we had just explained that the slang itself is outdated and uncommon now, only really perpetuated outside of Japan at this point?

...the slang itself is outdated and uncommon now, only really perpetuated outside of Japan at this point?

Well, could have used christmas cake (slang) to turn pointless pool #10502 into this tag instead.

EDIT: So it will look like Ashigara + chirstmas cake slang tag search.

iridescent_slime said:

But what exactly is a Christmas cake? The cakes with this tag include strawberry shortcake (post #2222841) and Swiss rolls (post #2240595), so it would seem that we aren't using this tag for a particular type of cake. If the only thing these posts have in common is that they're Christmas-themed images that include cakes, I don't see why we can't just tag them christmas and cake.

What BrokenEagle98 said. I'm not sure how prevalent elsewhere, but at least for the images coming out from like Japan they seem to actually decorate the cakes with a clear Christmas theme and/or messaging much like we'd theme and decorate a birthday or wedding cake. I'd say the tag should be specifically reserved for these types of Christmas-themed cakes. Cakes that are merely a common inclusion for a Christmas dinner or party should stick to either cake or their appropriate specific cake tag that covers it and then simply tag Christmas for the image's theme.

Edit: An example from wikipedia on the Japanese Christmas-themed cakes: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/20171224_Nijiya_Market_in_San_Diego.jpg

Travley said:

Well, could have used that to nuke out pool #10502 as this tag instead.

EDIT: So it will look like Ashigara + slang tag search.

Whilst the use of the slang now is outdated, that pool itself seems to using it in the same way it was used back in the 80s and early 90s, or at least referencing it (at least for a good amount of the posts in the pool) - the following paragraphs are from "Doing Business with Japanese Men: A Woman's Handbook" by American authors Christalyn Brannen and Tracey Wilen, released in 1993.

The managerial-track career woman, kyaria uman, is still not a significant part of corporate Japan, but she does exist. The most visible females in the Japanese business environment, however, are the OLs ("office ladies") that exclusively fill the administrative and clerical positions. OLs and the kyaria uman dress completely differently. As a foreign businesswoman, you should always dress like the kyaria uman, never like the OL.

OLs enter the workplace in their early twenties and leave shortly after marriage to start a family. Japanese women almost invariably marry by the age of twenty-five. The current slang term for a single woman over twenty-five is "Christmas Cake"-which means that, like day-old holiday pastry, no one wants a "stale" bride. The social pressure to get married is enormous, and if the young working woman doesn't succeed on her own her office manager will probably take time during the working day to show her pictures of eligible bachelors who work for the company. She makes her choices, goes on arranged dates with one or more of the prospects, and reports her preferences to the boss and other concerned parties.

In addition, none of the posts in that pool had the christmas cake tag at all. So, in my opinion, it would be fine to keep it for that pool. If a pool for Christmas Cakes, as in the slang use, is made, then that pool and the theoretical new pool can just link to each other in their descriptions.

Damian0358 said:

The Pixpedia article on the matter effectively says that these are cakes that are in of themselves Christmas-coded, with "Santa Claus, reindeer dolls, and holly leaves", using "Fresh cream, bitter chocolate, powdered sugar, etc." to give the impression of snow. So perhaps the examples you named may not be proper examples of that, and may warrant the removal of the tag.

So it's analogous to birthday_cake then, in that it's not a particular type of cake but one that has holiday-themed decorations? I can live with having a tag for that, but it might be important to clarify this in the wiki, lest there be more instances of people misusing this tag for ordinary cakes in a Christmas setting.

Damian0358 said:

In addition, none of the posts in that pool had the christmas cake tag at all. So, in my opinion, it would be fine to keep it for that pool. If a pool for Christmas Cakes, as in the slang use, is made, then that pool and the theoretical new pool can just link to each other in their descriptions.

I really don't see why we need 2 pools for the same thing, we didn't make seperate pools for things like pool #8338 (Good Work Admiral!) and pool #10686 (Ship Class Reunion), if people don't want to see a specific copyright/character that would "dominate" the pool they can just use a - search.

Another option is moving the archetype to spinster. It's the most recognizable English-language equivalent, and there are no obvious conflicts. Out of the couple dozen posts that could be tagged, only one directly uses the phrase "christmas cake", so changing the name shouldn't be that much of a hassle.

Spinster could work, or even the tag Pixiv uses, urenokori, if we wanted to main the Japanese reference to it all, but here's the thing to consider now.

Only 3 or 4 posts that were under christmas cake appeared to reference that slang at all. While, as mentioned, it is likely that there are posts on Danbooru that fall under this archetype, but weren't tagged for it (there's likely candidates in office lady, for instance, or those chartags that were referenced in the Wiki previously, those being Koigakubo Yuri, Kuroi Nanako, and Yamanaka Sawako), you now have to have someone that's willing to either a) tag garden this theoretical new tag; or b) pool garden a theoretical new pool, if that's the direction chosen.