Blouses/Shirts

We have collared blouse, shouldn't that be rolled into collared shirt? On that topic, there are various tags such as white blouse, black blouse etc, white_tank_top, and white_crop_top. It seems to me like these are all taking the form of a white shirt and that a combination of white shirt + crop_top or a given garment would provide what is sought. I think all forms of *blouse should be aliased to a the *shirt version as well as for crop_tops and tank_tops.

Further, on the topic of blouses, the wiki gives us this definition:

A blouse is a loose-fitting upper garment that hangs loosely ("blouses") over the wearer's body. The main difference between a blouse and a shirt is that a shirt can be tucked into the clothes, whereas a blouse is designed to hang outside the clothes.

It's not clear to me at all that this is how the tag is being used. Most images with the tag are not loose-fitted and casually-styled. post #3193386 or post #3146780 are in line with my perception of what a blouse is, however most of the time posts tagged with blouse just include the shirt portion of a sailor uniform/serafuku. It seems to me the tag is overly saturated right now. Wikipedia's entry goes a bit further, including that "the term has been used to refer to a shirt which blouses out or has an unmistakably feminine appearance" which I believe we should include as well in some form. The article is worth checking out.

Tank tops (and camisoles) have been discussed over at topic #15524 and I agree it makes more sense to have those in a separate category instead of lumping tank tops together with shirts. Also I have no idea why we even have a white crop top tag, that sounds totally unnecessary.

Why does a blouse have to be casually-styled? And where does it say that it should be? Serafuku tops are (usually) technically blouses, so it's entirely understandable that people would tag them as such, although I've never used the tag for them as I believe it would just overwhelm it to include them. It would be rather arbitrary to state that blouses used as the top halves of serafuku can't be included, though, so perhaps it would be better if I/we did? They can always then be excluded with -serafuku.

I agree with unbreakable regarding tank tops and camisoles.

White crop top does seem pointless, though.

Just remember, that any COLOR_ITEM tags that get migrated to COLOR_shirt would by necessity also have to imply that ITEM -> shirt, since most of the COLOR_shirt tags implicate the shirt tag.

Unbreakable said:

Tank tops (and camisoles) have been discussed over at topic #15524 and I agree it makes more sense to have those in a separate category instead of lumping tank tops together with shirts. Also I have no idea why we even have a white crop top tag, that sounds totally unnecessary.

If not shirt, do you have another tag idea that would behave similar to legwear and other such tags? I don't agree with the assessment a camisole or tank top are not a type of shirt, I believe they are. It seems to me that color_shirt + camisole would be just as sufficient as color_legwear + pantyhose and various other tags.

As far as white crop top sure the particular tag may not be appropriate, but how else should it be tagged? It can't just be removed, for then we'd not be able to indicate colors of crop tops. Crop top + white_shirt would solve this matter, or do you suggest another generalized tag?

And let's look at a few other generalized tags:

• legwear covers kneehighs, over-kneehighs, thighhighs, pantyhose, and socks
• neckwear alisas include bowties, neckerchiefs, ascots, neck ribbons, and neckties (although the wiki appears to be inaccurate)
• eyewear cover monocles, glasses, goggles, and various other "eyewear"

In all of those cases different similar though distinctive items are treated as the same kind of thing for specifying color and other attributes, similar to how a shirt relates to a cami and other tags, I don't see what makes them so distinct they can't be handled the same way socks and pantyhose are and other examples despite being more dissimilar. One caveat here would be while the above we don't have a "legwear," "neckwear," or "eyewear" tags as such words aren't used in normal parlance, the word shirt is and so I suggest implications as well from camisole, blouse, crop_top, tank_top, t-shirt, etc. to shirt.

skylightcrystal said:

Why does a blouse have to be casually-styled? And where does it say that it should be? Serafuku tops are (usually) technically blouses, so it's entirely understandable that people would tag them as such, although I've never used the tag for them as I believe it would just overwhelm it to include them. It would be rather arbitrary to state that blouses used as the top halves of serafuku can't be included, though, so perhaps it would be better if I/we did? They can always then be excluded with -serafuku.

I don't know whether they should have to be casually-styled per se but it appears closely associated with casualness. Following the current definition, loose-fitting suggests a casual attire. Using Wikpedia's phrasing of "unmistakably feminine appearance" further suggests a girly, less formal, and fashionable/trendy look. Looking to the phrasing of "blouses out" and "blouses over" seems to be self-referencing or arcane language, "blousing" appears to either reference loose folds or old peasant attire. A typical shirt part of a seifuku and other uses of blouse don't appear either casual or involving loose-fitting or folding garments.

BrokenEagle98 said:

Just remember, that any COLOR_ITEM tags that get migrated to COLOR_shirt would by necessity also have to imply that ITEM -> shirt, since most of the COLOR_shirt tags implicate the shirt tag.

Sure, I'd like to discuss a bit before making any request but blouse -> shirt and other implications would be included

+1, especially in regards to stuff like tank_top_lift

chinatsu said:

As far as white crop top sure the particular tag may not be appropriate, but how else should it be tagged? It can't just be removed, for then we'd not be able to indicate colors of crop tops. Crop top + white_shirt would solve this matter, or do you suggest another generalized tag?

And let's look at a few other generalized tags:

• legwear covers kneehighs, over-kneehighs, thighhighs, pantyhose, and socks
• neckwear alisas include bowties, neckerchiefs, ascots, neck ribbons, and neckties (although the wiki appears to be inaccurate)
• eyewear cover monocles, glasses, goggles, and various other "eyewear"

&

chinatsu said:

Sure, I'd like to discuss a bit before making any request but blouse -> shirt and other implications would be included

I think generalizing the color tags is a decent idea, as you point out with the examples here. "Shirt" still seems too specific though, as tank_tops and perhaps blouses or camisoles aren't really prototypical "shirts" to most people, as people are mentioning here.

As with the very generic "legwear", "neckware", "eyewear", etc, I'd suggest we go with a similarly generic "COLOR_top" . That'd feel appropriate with pretty much any upper body garment. I'd probably keep the COLOR_jacket tags separate though, as that feels like it should remain different category.

This would also probably necessitate breaking the -> shirt implications, which should be fine I think.

There is the tag frilled shirt collar which states in its wiki that the tag can apply to dresses, blouses, or other articles of clothing that aren't shirts.

忍猫 said:

There is the tag frilled shirt collar which states in its wiki that the tag can apply to dresses, blouses, or other articles of clothing that aren't shirts.

I'd say that one should probably have been just frilled collar, except that that tag already exists for something else. Looking at what's supposed to be in frilled collar, I'd say it ought to have been frilled choker or something along those lines (which *also* apparently exists). Not sure if it's worth moving things around for that though, by the post counts all three of these seem fairly well established, though the latter two seem mostly synonymous.

On the other hand, I see some miss-tagging in there too, so apparently the distinction between these isn't perfectly clear.

Shinjidude said:

&

I think generalizing the color tags is a decent idea, as you point out with the examples here. "Shirt" still seems too specific though, as tank_tops and perhaps blouses or camisoles aren't really prototypical "shirts" to most people, as people are mentioning here.

How so

As with the very generic "legwear", "neckware", "eyewear", etc, I'd suggest we go with a similarly generic "COLOR_top" . That'd feel appropriate with pretty much any upper body garment. I'd probably keep the COLOR_jacket tags separate though, as that feels like it should remain different category.

This would also probably necessitate breaking the -> shirt implications, which should be fine I think.

Suppose this COLOR_top choice was taken, what garments would it apply and not to? A sweater, a jacket, or a coat would all be considered "topwear," thus diluting the color tags entirely. Say a character wears both a white camisole and a pink jacket, it will be tagged thusly: camisole jacket pink_top white_top; now if you use combination tags like pink_top sweater or pink_top blouse it will be totally deluded. With the color_shirt option, we don't have this problem, a pink camisole isn't competing with a shirt, blouse, tank top, etc., whereas jackets are typically worn in combination with such garments.

How would we distinguish jackets, sweaters, with the top option? With the shirt option this is already done as those garments lack the same shirtniness that camis, blouses, tank tops, etc. share.

chinatsu said:

How so

I'm referring to Unbreakable and BrokenEagle98's comments above, along with the comments in topic #15524 and topic #12487 linked from it. I tend to agree with Hillside Moose in forum #111371.

Suppose this COLOR_top choice was taken, what garments would it apply and not to? A sweater, a jacket, or a coat would all be considered "topwear," thus diluting the color tags entirely. Say a character wears both a white camisole and a pink jacket, it will be tagged thusly: camisole jacket pink_top white_top; now if you use combination tags like pink_top sweater or pink_top blouse it will be totally deluded. With the color_shirt option, we don't have this problem, a pink camisole isn't competing with a shirt, blouse, tank top, etc., whereas jackets are typically worn in combination with such garments.

How would we distinguish jackets, sweaters, with the top option? With the shirt option this is already done as those garments lack the same shirtniness that camis, blouses, tank tops, etc. share.

I mentioned above that I would exclude by definition jackets (or coats or other outerwear) in a *_top tag. People don't refer to outerwear as a "top" anyway, as they are normally removed indoors or worn in combination (as you say). Tops are generally continuously worn as part of one's wardrobe for the day. The Wikipedia articles for "Outerwear" and "Top (clothing)" correspond to the categories I'd feel we should use to delineate the difference between "top" and and "jacket"/"coat"/etc.

The combo tags would continue to work as they should, as the jacket would be excluded. Your example would get tagged camisole jacket pink_jacket white_top, and both garnments would be differentiated. If someone was wearing two tops, say, this get-up (almost impossible to search for on Danbooru currently, btw), we wouldn't be able to differentiate between a pink outer crop_top and a black inner tanktop, but I think that's a tad too granular to worry about. I wouldn't consider either of the tops here as something I'd tag as "shirt" generically.

The definitions for "sweater", "tank top", etc also typically don't call them shirts.