Still -1 to using true names for f/sn, f/ha and f/z characters. It just sounds dumb no matter how you put it - nobody ever calls them that way.
Posted under Tags
ckretaznman said:
saber --> artoria pendragon or artoria pendragon (fate/stay night) or artoria pendragon (fate)
saber alter --> artoria pendragon alter or artoria pendragon alter (fate)
saber lily --> artoria pendragon lily or artoria pendragon lily (fate)
Artoria Pendragon is limited to Fate only so there's no need to add _(fate) at the end.
ckretaznman said:
archer --> emiya or emiya (fate/stay night) or emiya (fate)
There are two kinds of Emiya recognized in FGO, so archer --> emiya (fate/stay night) I think.
ckretaznman said:
lancer --> cu chulainn (fate/stay night)
lancer (fate/prototype) --> cu chulainn (fate/prototype)
Should we add cu_chulainn_(fate)_(all) to refer Caster Cu or Proto Cu or Alter Cu?
ckretaznman said:
berserker (fate/prototype fragments) --> jekyll and hyde (fate)
I think there should be separate tags for henry_jekyll_(fate) and edward_hyde_(fate)
ckretaznman said:
assassin of black --> jack the ripper (fate/apocrypha) or jack the ripper (fate)
+1 to assassin of black --> jack the ripper (fate/apocrypha), since there are the other Jack the Ripper from Strange Fake.
nonamethanks said:
Still -1 to using true names for f/sn, f/ha and f/z characters. It just sounds dumb no matter how you put it - nobody ever calls them that way.
FGO players think otherwise. Calling them by class name is complicated.
nonamethanks said:How exactly is it complicate to call characters by the same name they've had (and they've been known for) for the past decade?
Please don't take it out of context. I said in the first line that it definitely applies for FGO players (even if OG Saber is still often called as Saber)
sakuraka_ama said:
Please don't take it out of context. I said in the first line that it definitely applies for FGO players (even if OG Saber is still often called as Saber)
My question was more of an open one, not directed to you. But let's be honest, if the problem was as simple as changing everything to true names then there wouldn't have been 11 pages of discussion about this so far.
If we want to use true name, then why have the lord_el-melloi_ii tag? His real name is waver_velvet, let's just make the tag waver_velvet_(older) or waver_velvet_(prisma_illya), and implicate it to the previous one. After all El Melloi is not just the F/GO character, he appears in Prisma Illya too before F/GO, and he takes his name from his old teacher after the end of Fate Zero. In fact let's also name his servant version zhuge_liang_(fate/grand_order) and implicate it to the above, so we can have three different character tags for a single character.
Let's also move rider_(fate/zero) to alexander_(fate/zero), since he's the same character as alexander_(fate/grand_order) but older, to go with the F/GO naming conventions. Or, since both are in fate/grand order, we could call the latter iskandar_(fate/grand_order) or iskandar_(fate/grand_order)_(younger).
While we're at it we'll move archer to emiya shirou (older) (alternate universe) since that's his full true name. Then we'll take any depiction of emiya with saber in avalon and tag it emiya shirou (older) (alternate universe) (realta nua).
Do you see where I'm going with this?
The current system is broken, and using classes names for series that immediately discard them is the best way, yes, but applying the same exact rule to very different parts of a franchise from different decades is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Absolutely nobody who ever spent more than five minutes browsing about the Fate franchise has ever had trouble remembering who Saber or Berserker were in F/Z or F/SN. If they are confused by trying to search for berserker, do you really think they'd search for heracles_(fate/stay_night)?.
The whole point of the problem is that you cannot apply this paradigm to F/GO anymore because there are too many of them. Even in Fate/Apocrypha there's two for each class in a single series, and they barely use their class names. This was never the case in the original series.
By the way, "considering majority opinion, multiple advantages of true names, and the lack of good arguments supporting the old system, the site should go with true names.", which was stated some posts ago, is a ridiculous statement, and you don't even need to look at the number of pages of pure discussion this topic has had and the divisive results of the global poll (in which "use true names" lost over the sum of those who wanted class names) to discard it immediately.
Updated
Combining those two choices doesn't work. One side (class names for everything) seemingly doesn't care about the tag snarl, while the other (class names for Stay Night/Apocrypha/Zero) is interested in preventing spoilers. I sympathize with the latter group, but FGO has pretty much destroyed the concept of True Names being a spoiler. And the former group's wishes would only further complicate the rat's nest of servant tags.
Just because these two similar but quite different choices combined outnumber the winner doesn't negate the fact that it's still the majority vote overall.
WatcherCCG said:
Just because these two similar but quite different choices combined outnumber the winner doesn't negate the fact that it's still the majority vote overall.
I'd agree with you if the true names side won the absolute majority, but that was not the case. In an equal sense, even though true names "won", not enough people overall preferred them over class names. That's why I said "divisive" - there's no real winner unless you want to be pedantic on either side.
You're combining two choices that look similar, but are not the same thing. One side just wants to continue this doomed snarl of using classes as tags, in a slowly growing pool of servants. The other is more interested in preventing genuine spoilers from the mainline works. People on the staff have admitted in this thread that switching to true names would be simpler for everyone, despite misgivings on spoilers, and Grand Order makes the spoiler claim ring extremely hollow.
Updated
nonamethanks said:
Still -1 to using true names for f/sn, f/ha and f/z characters. It just sounds dumb no matter how you put it - nobody ever calls them that way.
This. Plus fate/extra and fate/extra ccc for mostly same reasons. Not only their original names are spoilers, characters from Extra are called by their class names in the original game and consequently are much more well known that way.
nonamethanks said:
By the way, "considering majority opinion, multiple advantages of true names, and the lack of good arguments supporting the old system, the site should go with true names.", which was stated some posts ago, is a ridiculous statement, and you don't even need to look at the number of pages of pure discussion this topic has had and the divisive results of the global poll (in which "use true names" lost over the sum of those who wanted class names) to discard it immediately.
Yeah, it's not only ridiculous, it is blatantly false. There is no majority support for this, neither there is consensus (another false statement some people make about this topic).
Opinions were rather divided. Particularly, if we look back in this thread, admins that manage aliases/implications did not support changing all tags to true names. Hillside Moose was against true names for pre-GO characters, NWF Renim was neutral, and Type-kun was for true names but only when they do not involve spoilers.
Another part of that statement, "multiple advantages of true names, and the lack of good arguments supporting the old system" is extremely one-sided and just factually wrong. Using true names for all characters does have some advantages, but it also introduces a whole host of problems. And arguments in support of the currently functioning system were presented multiple times in this topic.
WatcherCCG said:
Combining those two choices doesn't work. One side (class names for everything) seemingly doesn't care about the tag snarl, while the other (class names for Stay Night/Apocrypha/Zero) is interested in preventing spoilers. I sympathize with the latter group, but FGO has pretty much destroyed the concept of True Names being a spoiler. And the former group's wishes would only further complicate the rat's nest of servant tags.
Not only it does work, it works quite well. The fact that our current tag system functions properly, except for occasional mistagging by few newbies (which is not something unique to this series/copyright), is a clear proof.
And F/GO can not destroy something that does not belong to it.
Not everyone plays or cares about F/GO, some people even intentionally avoid it (there are several reasons to do so). What's more, there are many times more people who get introduced to Fate franchise via anime/manga/novels, rather than mobile gacha game.
Changing all character tags to true names would be both confusing (characters are more well known by the names they were called in their original works) and harmful (due to spoilers) for people that don't play F/GO.
Edit:
WatcherCCG said:
People on the staff have admitted in this thread that switching to true names would be simpler for everyone, despite misgivings on spoilers, and Grand Order makes the spoiler claim ring extremely hollow.
Another false statement. Admins that manage tags were mostly against using true names for all characters. To be exact, 1 was against (forum #135478), 1 neutral (forum #135535), 1 for true names but only when there are no spoilers (forum #136253).
And I have already explained above why F/GO does not invalidate the spoilers issue. It's a mobile gacha game, even among dedicated Fate series fans many don't play it or care about it. And when we look at more casual crowd, various Fate anime/manga/novels are many times more well known.
Updated
I would suggest splitting this effort into two phases: first fix all the post-F/Z stuff. There is plenty of work to be done there and it may take months before it all gets ironed out. The poll results also indicated this was the compromise most users wanted.
In the second phase we can re-examine the Stay Night/Ataraxia/Zero games and re-evaluate the sentiment for switching to true names for those characters.
I think the most painful part of the current setup is characters from Fate/extra, Fate/apocrypha, and Fate/grand order. Almost no one uses the class names to identify these characters and they should be prioritized.
Regarding qualifiers, I would suggest just sticking to _(fate) unless there's a compelling reason to use another one to disambiguate. When a character shows up in multiple properties, they usually maintain the same appearance, unless they switch to a different class in which case the class can be used as a qualifier.
I will concede to Albert's logic here. Pushing the VNs aside for the time being is probably the most efficient thing to do going forward. But I will not budge on my point that Stay Night has been out for years, and the notion of protecting spoilers is, due to its age and what Grand Order has done, moot. I suppose we'll resume that debate once the Extra/Apocrypha/GO servants are all sorted out, however.
…OK. Let's go through this chronologically.
nonamethanks said:
If we want to use true name, then why have the lord_el-melloi_ii tag? His real name is waver_velvet, let's just make the tag waver_velvet_(older) or waver_velvet_(prisma_illya), and implicate it to the previous one. After all El Melloi is not just the F/GO character, he appears in Prisma Illya too before F/GO, and he takes his name from his old teacher after the end of Fate Zero. In fact let's also name his servant version zhuge_liang_(fate/grand_order) and implicate it to the above, so we can have three different character tags for a single character.
Well, lord el-melloi ii is a good tag because that is the name that he goes by in the next stage of his life. He does appear in different franchises, but they are largely the same character. Somebody who is an expert magus with super long hair and a spiffy scarf. Sometimes he wears a suit. In fate/grand order the real Kong Ming stopped by, gave his powers to lord el-melloi ii and then went traveling to the zone of nobody cares; meaning that lord el-melloi ii is just lord el-melloi ii with some servant-level powers. There are not enough differences to make a new tag.
Now, since you brought up fate/kaleid liner prisma illya, note that the emiya shirou there has different experiences than the one from fate/stay night, but both are under the same tag because there isn't enough of a difference for the tags to be separate. Then came a new emiya shirou who is different both visually and character-wise and because of that there is an emiya shirou (prisma illya) tag. If there is an important enough difference to make to differentiate characters, then we'll make tags for it.
nonamethanks said:
Let's also move rider_(fate/zero) to alexander_(fate/zero), since he's the same character as alexander_(fate/grand_order) but older, to go with the F/GO naming conventions. Or, since both are in fate/grand order, we could call the latter iskandar_(fate/grand_order) or iskandar_(fate/grand_order)_(younger).
Fun fact: Alexander is the official name of his younger self while the Iskandar is the official name of his older self. So we don't really need to have iskandar_(fate/grand_order)_(younger) because that's already solved with the alexander (fate/grand order) tag. That's why you should look over my suggestions … that I made … in my previous post.
nonamethanks said:
While we're at it we'll move archer to emiya shirou (older) (alternate universe) since that's his full true name. Then we'll take any depiction of emiya with saber in avalon and tag it emiya shirou (older) (alternate universe) (realta nua).
Do you see where I'm going with this?
There's a reason why I made a whole post about what names to change, because I wanted to have a discussion about how to change the names. If you want to make the tag emiya shirou (older) (alternate universe), then you can make that your suggestion. You seem to be imagining that danbooru's tagging system for fate_(series) characters is an be-all end-all decision set in stone. We can get to the point of suggesting emiya shirou (older) (alternate universe) (realta nua), but sometimes we can just say, "Hold on. How many images involve this particular character? What is the visual difference if there is any? Is it important enough to make a different tag? Is it possible to just tag it with emiya_shirou archer_(cosplay)?" It's not that big of a deal.
nonamethanks said:
The current system is broken, and using classes names for series that immediately discard them is the best way, yes, but applying the same exact rule to very different parts of a franchise from different decades is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
Absolutely nobody who ever spent more than five minutes browsing about the Fate franchise has ever had trouble remembering who Saber or Berserker were in F/Z or F/SN. If they are confused by trying to search for berserker, do you really think they'd search for heracles_(fate/stay_night)?.
The whole point of the problem is that you cannot apply this paradigm to F/GO anymore because there are too many of them. Even in Fate/Apocrypha there's two for each class in a single series, and they barely use their class names. This was never the case in the original series.
Yes, I do expect people to search for true names at this point in time. I would also posit that "nobody who has spent more than five minutes browsing the fate_(series)" would look at the tags that have saber, lancer, lancer (fate/zero), gilgamesh, karna (fate), etc. and they'll be thinking, "This is very convoluted". In any case, this seems to be an argument about how people should refer to the characters in conversations, not an argument for a tagging system.
nonamethanks said:
By the way, "considering majority opinion, multiple advantages of true names, and the lack of good arguments supporting the old system, the site should go with true names.", which was stated some posts ago, is a ridiculous statement, and you don't even need to look at the number of pages of pure discussion this topic has had and the divisive results of the global poll (in which "class names for f/sn, f/ha and f/z" barely won over true names) to discard it immediately.
So the reason why there are a good number of pages on this topic is because we have to spend a lot of time repeating arguments to each other, but, to reiterate, there is a "lack of good arguments that support using class names for the old system". It's even worse if you just try to keep it only on fate/stay night, fate/hollow ataraxia, and fate/zero because now you're suddenly saying no other fate_(series) is important and should be denounced. Last time I checked, "Use true names for everything" had 44% of the vote, while "Use class names for only Fate/stay night, Fate/hollow ataraxia, and Fate/zero, but true names for everything else" had 34% of the vote. Last time I also checked, 44 is a bigger number than 34. Do you want to check the results again? Or did you mean the previous survey question? Looking over those results, I see "Keep using class names" has 37% of the vote while "Switch to using true names" has 62% of the vote. Just in case you didn't know, 62 is a bigger number than 37. The second question in particular probably applies more to the discussion than the third one, and that has almost twice the support. The "divisive results" you are claiming simply do not exist because the majority of voters wants to use true names instead. This isn't the United States Electoral College where having less votes still gives you the win.
So, I guess the question is:
Do you seriously think that lying is going to help?
nonamethanks said:
If we want to use true name, then why have the lord_el-melloi_ii tag? His real name is waver_velvet, let's just make the tag waver_velvet_(older) or waver_velvet_(prisma_illya), and implicate it to the previous one. After all El Melloi is not just the F/GO character, he appears in Prisma Illya too before F/GO, and he takes his name from his old teacher after the end of Fate Zero. In fact let's also name his servant version zhuge_liang_(fate/grand_order) and implicate it to the above, so we can have three different character tags for a single character.Let's also move rider_(fate/zero) to alexander_(fate/zero), since he's the same character as alexander_(fate/grand_order) but older, to go with the F/GO naming conventions. Or, since both are in fate/grand order, we could call the latter iskandar_(fate/grand_order) or iskandar_(fate/grand_order)_(younger).
Adding to ckretaznman's explanation, we do have how to tag: character wiki here, and let me quote the specific line for all of us to read.
Alternate identities, genderswaps, and other derivatives
If a character has alternate identities or forms which are visually distinct, these are tagged as well. Use the official name, or if there is none, the agreed-upon fan referent.
So we have lord_el-melloi_ii, waver_velvet, iskandar_(fate) and alexander_(fate) because they are visually distinct and they do have official name.
The bulk update request #1246 (forum #134237) has been approved by @albert.
MyrMindservant said:
I remember you. I remember you using VNDB's ratings to have a popularity contest between some of fate (series)'s action-oriented games. VNDB… Rating system… Action games… Popularity contest… I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself. Here is a Wall Street Journal article. I want you to read the article, tell us what it is about, specify how and why fate/grand order is referenced, and then tell us what conclusion you can derive out of that. Answer correctly and maybe you might actually make a good argument someday. Not here though.
nonamethanks said:
But let's be honest, if the problem was as simple as changing everything to true names then there wouldn't have been 11 pages of discussion about this so far.
You see? The reason why the discussion has lasted 11 pages is because people keep repeating resolved arguments.
Awesome, Jeanne's bulk request got approved. I'd say we're almost done with the separate tags.
What's the general consensus on these three particular tags? I personally believe they should be separate without implications because they're not one and the same.
tohsaka_rin
ishtar_(fate/grand_order)
ereshkigal_(fate/grand_order)
mj1234 said:
Awesome, Jeanne's bulk request got approved. I'd say we're almost done with the separate tags.
What's the general consensus on these three particular tags? I personally believe they should be separate without implications because they're not one and the same.
tohsaka_rin
ishtar_(fate/grand_order)
ereshkigal_(fate/grand_order)
The reason people want a supertag to search for them all at once is that visually there's no difference between them save for the costume. Sure, they're three different personalities, but you can't really tell that from the average picture, and people just want to search for the same "visual" character at once. You could do an OR search but imo it's just a matter of time before new Rin clone characters are released in the game, and a single umbrella tag is far easier to use.
Same reason why matou sakura is implicated by parvati (fate/grand order).
ckretaznman said:
...
You really need to take a chill pill and stop assuming that everyone that disagrees with you has ulterior motives or is being dishonest/dumb. If you keep arguing like that most other users will simply ignore your posts and discard your arguments.
I never said there shouldn't be a supertag or umbrella tag. Those who prefer to look up the same alternatives with one tag can do so, but there are people who also would like to look up a specific character separated from different variants.
What I meant by "without implications" is that there should be one umbrella tag for those three characters with three separate tags. So searching for Tohsaka_Rin wouldn't give you Ishtar or Ereshkigal, but if you searched for Tohsaka_Rin_(all), all three would be included.