Voted for true names for everything except F/SN, Ataraxia and Zero. Honestly, that seems like a best option, given that in main series, real identities are crucial plot devices.
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BrokenEagle98 said:
What's the statute of limitation on spoilers...? <_<
Voted yes to everything besides #1
In general there isn't a statute of limitations on this site. There are exceptions though, which is usually when preventing it is just such a massive headache that we kind of just give up on it.
Personally I have no real issues with seeing spoilers, though I have no problems with protecting against them if that's what people want.
I voted true names for everyone. This late in the game, searching for info on any Servant is going to get you their true names. And now, knowing true names ahead of time doesn't really spoil anything. I suppose it used to be a big deal (of sorts) back when FSN was new and associations to historical figures weren't so easily guessable (and weren't there series-specific reasons why Servants couldn't reveal their true names all willy-nilly?), but that impact (and potentially importance) of finally figuring out who is who is now gone.
The only thing I'd let go is if it was decided that FSN/Ataraxia/Zero Servants' names were left as is (i.e. class names). I would suspect at least 95% of people now would know specifically who I was talking about without having to mention true names if I brought up Saber, Archer, Rider, etc. in a conversation. Since for a lot of us, that's all we knew them by for years before their true names were revealed. But I don't mind either way.
Considering we have emiya_alter now, why not?
True names because:
1) Tagging images is less confusing.
2) Most characters in the Fate stories reveal their true names almost immediately after introduction, making class names rather pointless.
3) The creators build upon established information, assuming that they know all the spoilers already.
4) The tag artoria_pendragon_(all) exists, which is a true name that reveals who the face of the franchise is, which defeats the point of tagging an image as saber or the like.
5) fate/grand order exists and is the most popular installment in the nasuverse, so maybe try not to ignore it?
The only game that actually works with the hidden identities and true name themes is fate/extra. I suppose I would support the idea of changing saber_extra to just saber, however fate/extella exists as the far more popular property in that sub-series and that reveals every and all identities.
Fate/Extra and Fate/Extra CCC need to be added to the list alongside F/SN, Ataraxia and Zero. True names are spoilers in them too.
Also, using a pool to decide this is not a good idea. Popular public opinion is frequently different from the logically best solution. And I really hope that pool has some protection against vote stuffing/manipulation.
Flandre5carlet said:
Seconding willsolvit in regards to the spoiler issue. I generally voted in favor of keeping spoilers protected - whatever the end consensus is, we absolutely should keep spoilers out of tags regardless of how long it's been.
Absolutely this. We should not force people that care about spoilers to leave Danbooru or blacklist the whole fate_(series) just because few users here consider some tags confusing.
Fremy said:
Considering we have emiya_alter now, why not?
Because it's a character from Grand Order and images associated with older parts of the franchise don't feature him. If someone is checking F/SN or Fate/Zero posts, he won't see that tag. Users can also blacklist fate/grand_order and avoid all the mess and spoilers it brings.
ckretaznman said:
True names because:
1) Tagging images is less confusing.
2) Most characters in the Fate stories reveal their true names almost immediately after introduction, making class names rather pointless.
3) The creators build upon established information, assuming that they know all the spoilers already.
4) The tag artoria_pendragon_(all) exists, which is a true name that reveals who the face of the franchise is, which defeats the point of tagging an image as saber or the like.
5) fate/grand order exists and is the most popular installment in the nasuverse, so maybe try not to ignore it?The only game that actually works with the hidden identities and true name themes is fate/extra. I suppose I would support the idea of changing saber_extra to just saber, however fate/extella exists as the far more popular property in that sub-series and that reveals every and all identities.
1) That's subjective. I don't find the current tagging to be confusing.
2) Not true. Servant's true names in F/SN, Zero, Extra and some other games/novels are treated as spoilers by the work itself.
3) Not always true. This is different for each game/novel in the series.
4) This is just one case and that tag was only added because there was a strong practical necessity for it.
5) Fate/Grand Order is not even near to being the most popular. F/SN, Zero and Extra are much more well known among the general anime/manga/LN community. F/GO is only popular among relatively small subset of the community.
F/SN is getting new anime adaptations even now. The first Heaven's Feel movie will premiere in cinemas fairly soon and I'm sure that it will be watched by many times more people than there are F/GO players.
Fate/Extra is also getting an anime adaptation in 2018.
Also, Fate/Extella is not the most popular in the sub-series. It looses to original Fate/Extra by an order of magnitude if not more. Even Fate/Extra CCC is considerably more popular.
For example we can look at numbers of users that voted for each of them at VNDB: Fate/Extra - 1034 votes total, Fate/Extra CCC - 153 votes total, Fate/Extella - 108 votes total. Of course, VNDB doesn't represent the whole playerbase, only a portion of it, but it can be used as a sample.
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MyrMindservant said:
1) That's subjective. I don't find the current tagging to be confusing.
That is, until one character tag is used to refer to more than one character, the issue that FGO will introduce to Danbooru's tagging practices if we decide to just stick with class names. Just the Saber class in FGO alone is gonna net you like 10 characters or more.
MyrMindservant said:
1) That's subjective. I don't find the current tagging to be confusing.
Confusion is bound to happen when you have tags such as saber, altera (fate), saber (fate/prototype), bedivere, elizabeth bathory (brave) (fate), fergus mac roich (fate/grand order), frankenstein's monster (swimsuit saber) (fate), julius ceasar (fate/grand order), gawain (fate/extra), gilles de rais (fate/grand order), le chevalier d'eon (fate/grand order), miyamoto musashi (fate/grand order), saber of red, saber extra, saber bride, sakura saber, saber alter, saber lily, rama (fate/grand order), ryougi shiki, saber of black, and saber (fate/extra ccc fox tail). This isn't even all the clones. These are only Saber class servants. The tags aren't consistent, some of them reveal true names and others don't. Sometimes you have to know the original fate_(series) work that that the character comes from and other ones don't. It may not be confusing to you because you might only search for Artoria images for your waifu collection or whatever, but to everyone else the current tagging system is kind of a hassle.
MyrMindservant said:
2) Not true. Servant's true names in F/SN, Zero, Extra and some other games/novels are treated as spoilers by the work itself.
OK. fate/zero reveals every true name except for berserker (fate/zero) by the end of the first battle of the story. fate/stay night reveals every true name but saber, archer, and kind of caster and rider almost immediately. Regardless, that still doesn't change the fact that identities are revealed willy nilly. And also, gilgamesh. Explain why his true name is OK while the other names aren't. Why can't his name be golden archer or archer (fate/zero)? Shouldn't we avoid spoilers? In fact, doesn't his appearance in fate/stay night constitute a spoiler? Should we tag gilgamesh's black and white attire as a spoiler?
MyrMindservant said:
3) Not always true. This is different for each game/novel in the series.
All right, so fate/strange fake has enkidu (fate/strange fake)—I'm rather surprised this isn't lancer (fate/strange fake)—discovering that gilgamesh is in that Holy Grail War, basically assuming that reader already knows who gilgamesh is. Well, that's just one example and I don't want us to only throw examples at each other. It seems to me that you agree with me that this happens far more than it doesn't.
MyrMindservant said:
4) This is just one case and that tag was only added because there was a strong practical necessity for it.
That's not a counterargument, the name of Artoria Pendragon is still spoiling her identity.
MyrMindservant said:
5) Fate/Grand Order is not even near to being the most popular. F/SN, Zero and Extra are much more well known among the general anime/manga/LN community. F/GO is only popular among relatively small subset of the community……VNDB doesn't represent the whole playerbase, only a portion of it…
A portion that knows VNDB, has accounts on the site, rates games that are barely considered as visual novels, over the span of however long the Visual Novel Data Base has existed… Is there criteria of when people voted for those games? The votes could just be total count of everyone that has voted. I seriously doubt that these games would be considered as successful if only about 200~ were sold. That is a very small community of people and I'm glad you understand that it is a rather dumb argument. I mean, surveying 1000 people in a country about whatever isn't going to be emblematic of anything.
Why don't we just look at Twitter? Everyone knows that site, right? OK. So, I'm going to be using this site in order to look at how popular some of these Twitter hashtags are. Y'know, see how many people are actually talking about whatever fate (series) product is out there. We'll specifically be looking at the "hashtag popularity" figure, which is a 1-100 ratio that compares itself to the most used hashtags of that week/month. The hashtag #fate, which I assume is a generic catch-all term that would reference the entire franchise, has a popularity of 63.8. All right, so now let's look at the hashtag #fate_sn_anime, and that has the popularity of 59.2. OK, that's a little less than the generic hashtag, but that's fine, it's still looking good. Next, we'll look at #fgo, which has a popularity of 75.7. Considering that the number 75.7 is bigger than the number 59.2, I can definitely tell you that fate/grand order is definitely more popular than fate/stay night. Actually, looking at related hashtags, #fatego has a popularity of 77.6, which makes the divide even larger.
Onto the fate/extra point. Hashtag #fateex, which is tag that is referencing fate/extella, has a popularity of 53.5. The hashtag is also lower than the fate/grand order hashtags, but that's not the point. Comparing it to the hashtag #fateextra, which specifically is about fate/extra, has a popularity of 33.6. 53.5 is a bigger number than 33.6, and therefore #fateex is more popular than #fateextra. But that might be unfair. You could make the argument that fate/extra is competing with the entire fate/extra sub-series, that's fine. The hashtag #fateextella has popularity of 35.0, which is still larger than 33.6. And those hashtags are completely dwarfed by #fatego.
People know who the characters are. They're watching these shows and movies because they've gotten to know those characters by other means i.e. fate/grand order. Their enjoyment of those works aren't going to suffer just because they know who Nero is. So, I don't know the community that you come from: Saber-waifu, VNDB forum (Do they have those?) lurker, who talks more about fate/extra than fate/grand order. But maybe don't lie about the popularity of FGO and how it opened the gates of the franchise to the general public. Seriously, if Grand Order was less popular than EXTRA then Grand Order would not have lasted so long, especially using your VNDB criteria. It would have just died as shitty phone game, but it didn't.
P.S. I actually had to do some research for the tags to answer 1, because y'know, it's very confusing.
P.P.S. By the way, #ネロ and not #saberextra.
Fremy said:
Considering we have emiya_alter now, why not?
It already existing doesn't mean we need to keep it the way it is. Changing it to something that isn't spoilerific will always be possible.
Spoilers when they aren't actually real spoilers is pointless. If the characters real name is revealed early or/and when it wasn't ever really meant to be a secret in the first place (as In Lightnings real name.I mean come on...how the hell is that a spoiler?), then it just serves as pointless drivel that makes it harder to search.
On danbooru actually being able to find images you search for is key, so when names are removed when they aren't really "true" spoilers, then it just becomes ridiculous.
So my vote is to use the true names. If not, calling somebody by their class and not including the title of the game would just be confusing. Like for instance Artoria was a Saber in the first game, but saber is a class/title, yet just because she was the saber in the first game, she isn't given a _(insertgamehere) after Saber. Worse the class it self was used on all Artoria Sabers after wars as if it was an umbrella term for her and a name. But it started to really become weird when "non-Artoria" such as Mordred got the name Saber as well ontop of her "saber_of_red"... non-saber_Artoria got the tag of saber, but actually male sabers didn't get the saber tag.
Even now after the Artoria tag has been created as an umbrella tag for that first character, the "saber" tag is still used on all her incarnations where she is a saber. Granted it is better now that it has been removed from images such as where she is say a Rider or an Assassin... but if it is just a title then it should be added to the other sabers as well that wasn't her.
So in the end I suggest that the tag "saber" is removed.
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ckretaznman said:
People know who the characters are.
People most certainly DON'T know who Archer, Rider, Caster or the F/Z Berserker are if they don't actively go out of their way to spoil themselves or play Fate/GO before they play F/SN. At that point why not name Darth Vader "Anakin Skywalker" or drop any other identity spoiler that is older than a couple of years or belongs to a property that has sequels?
It doesn't matter if their identity is revealed in the fourth or in the tenth episode of the anime, it's still a spoiler. Gilgamesh is the exception because of his popularity, since everyone refers to him as such, and his class is perhaps even more of a spoiler than his real identity.
The characters from F/Z and F/SN were known and referred to as their class names for years before F/GO started adding countless clones to the series. Nobody's going to search for Medea_(Fate/Stay_Night) with the intent to find Caster - in fact forcing so as an alias would be a pointless spoiler for anyone who has not played the phone game.
Here are the preliminary survey results
I think a fairly safe conclusion is using true names is fine post Fate/zero novel, which came out in 2006.