What about Strange Fake? Considering it hasn't been animated, is still ongoing, and the majority of the Servants in it aren't in FGO.
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I'm all for using true names for everyone. If using class name for the servants in series such as FSN, FHA or FZ is considered spoiler, so every single comic that casually mentions said characters' true name should be tagged as spoiler as well? For example, in so many FGO comics featuring Archer, they casually mention Archer's true name while his identity is actually a huge spoiler in F/SN.
MyrMindservant said:
Fate/Extra and Fate/Extra CCC need to be added to the list alongside F/SN, Ataraxia and Zero. True names are spoilers in them too.
Ah, so what's your opinion on the rider_(fate/extra) tag? Because as I'm sure you're aware, her class tag is a spoiler.
Flandre5carlet said:
Unless I missed something throughout the thread, I don't really see why it has to be all or nothing on either side of the coin. Why can't each situation be handled in a way that makes sense, spoilers-wise, for said situation?
Because if you go with blanket tags (Like for Artoria), having Saber implicate it would be just as spoilery, so you might as well not have had the spoiler-free Saber tag in that case. (You might still keep a saber_(fate_stay_night) tag or something for ease of searching, but then spoilerness is not a valid reason anymore anyways.)
I'm a bit lazy to read through all the discussions, but has anyone brought up if the concept of spoilers here is even valid? I've only watched Fate/Stay Night (2006), UBW anime and movie, Zero, Apocrypha, played Extella, Grand Order, so I can't speak for the entire franchise, but is knowing the true name of the servant a spoiler to us as the viewer? We benefit nothing from knowing beforehand who they are and miss nothing either. At least for me, the reveals are never followed with "Wow, really?" or "I can't believe he/she is...", maybe except for Archer or Beserker in Zero but only a little. So my main question is, is it actually a spoiler to know who they are and has anyone felt the reveal was shocking enough to feel that they would lose the enjoyment had they known beforehand.
nonamethanks said:
Y'know, what? I'll let you fix your Star Wars, Gilgamesh, and Medea arguments, then I'll respond to you properly.
WakuWaku said:
What about Strange Fake? Considering it hasn't been animated, is still ongoing, and the majority of the Servants in it aren't in FGO.
Considering that enkidu (fate/strange fake) is not tagged as lancer (fate/strange fake), I'm pretty sure it's not that big of a deal.
In any case, the arguments still stand:
1) Tagging images is less confusing.
2) Most characters in the Fate stories reveal their true names almost immediately after introduction, making class names rather pointless.
3) The creators build upon established information, assuming that they know all the spoilers already.
4) The tag artoria_pendragon_(all) exists, which is a true name that reveals who the face of the franchise is, which defeats the point of tagging an image as saber or the like.
5) fate/grand order exists and is the most popular installment in the nasuverse, so maybe try not to ignore it?
mj1234 said:
How come so many "people" voted for spoiler names while they're basically non-existent in this thread or anywhere else to support it?
As far as I know, the survey doesn't require any login and thus everyone might have an access to it. Plus the survey didn't have any link to this thread, and I assume most of users in danbooru don't even bother checking the forum section
mj1234 said:
How come so many "people" voted for spoiler names while they're basically non-existent in this thread or anywhere else to support it?
The same could be said for true names votes. In general there's an incredible amount of total votes compared to the amount of people participating in the discussion, so your implications don't exactly fly.
albert said:
Here are the preliminary survey results
I think a fairly safe conclusion is using true names is fine post Fate/zero novel, which came out in 2006.
At this point, the Fate Franchise is so wide that I can't think of a reason to do even that.... It is something that some FGO has been spoiled pretty heavily since it's release and has only gotten worse with the English localization. I don't think that there is much value to be saved by keeping the the class names to preserve the spoiler aspect of it. Type-MOON has already done the job of smashing that to bits themselves.
WakuWaku said:
What about Strange Fake?
Oh that is a concern...
Considering it hasn't been animated, is still ongoing, and the majority of the Servants in it aren't in FGO.
but If I remember, there is at least one : enkidu
Updated
AfroThunda said:
That is, until one character tag is used to refer to more than one character, the issue that FGO will introduce to Danbooru's tagging practices if we decide to just stick with class names. Just the Saber class in FGO alone is gonna net you like 10 characters or more.
Yeah, but we already tag F/GO servants with their true names so there is no problem here. Using class names for all servants originating from F/GO would be counterproductive. At the same time, it would be harmful to use true names for all F/SN servants.
All three options in that pool are faulty because they suggest adopting a blanket policy. And considering how different various parts of fate_(series) are, one single policy can't work well for all of them.
goldenrider006 said:
Ah, so what's your opinion on the rider_(fate/extra) tag? Because as I'm sure you're aware, her class tag is a spoiler.
I've never asked to use class namer for all servants in all fate_(series) copyrights. My opinion is that both extremes, "class names for all" and "true names for all", are harmful and should be avoided.
The situation in each game/novel is different and it would be best to select suitable approach for each of them, not enforce some global blanket policy.
sakuraka_ama said:
As far as I know, the survey doesn't require any login and thus everyone might have an access to it.
Yeah, that's correct. What's more, it also does not prevent the same person from voting more than once. So I wouldn't put too much faith in those numbers.
Most characters in the Fate stories reveal their true names almost immediately after introduction, making class names rather pointless.
This is not true for the original Fate/stay night novel at least. Identities of enemy servants were kept secret at least until mid-story, because real identity was considered a weakness back then. Fate/zero is more lenient in that regard, mostly because we tend to follow the story from multiple different perspectives of different masters. The only "Secret" identity was Berserker, IIRC.
There's also one other thing to note. In the original novel, servants are almost never referred to by their real names, even after they are revealed. Saber is always called Saber, not Artoria, nobody calls Rider Medusa, etc. This is understandable in-universe, because of aforementioned identity protection and because the fifth war had one servant for each class, not a ton of them. The exception to that rule, Gilgamesh, is always referred to by his name.
Therefore, I'd say that at least seven original servants plus avenger from F/SN visual novel should be tagged with their class names, maybe with `_(fate/stay_night)` qualifier applied, given that the novel is not considered to be a base point of the multiverse anymore. With Fate/Zero, I'm fine either way, maybe alias real names to class names with `_(fate/zero)` qualifiers; however, Saber should stay Saber, and Gilgamesh should stay Gilgamesh, for consistency with original VN. The other extreme, F/GO characters, should be tagged with their real names, since from what I saw nobody gives a damn about identity protection anymore, everyone is referred to by real names, and there are multiple servants of each class.
As for the rest of franchise, I sadly don't have sufficient knowledge, but maybe the same rules should apply? If the servants are primarily referred to by class names, use class names; otherwise, use real names.
Anyway, aside of the spoiler character names and whatnot, shouldn't we update or put an alias of the official character name romanization (even despite how ridiculous they are). For example, romani_archaman to replace romani_akiman, olgamally_animusphere aliased to olga_marie_animusphere and even altria_pendragon(yes, they are ridiculous romanization but it's the official one they said).
nonamethanks said:
Why not name Darth Vader "Anakin Skywalker"
Because no matter how old, this would actually be a real spoiler. The identity of Darth Vader was actually a real secret in the franchise itself and not something that wasn't just immediately mentions. His identity was kept hidden on purpose.
What I am arguing here is that only spoilers that are actual spoilers, need to actually be kept hidden. If not every single image needs the spoiler tag because before you have watched anything, you don't know anything about it. By it's very nature you don't know the name or identity of a character before you find out.
Say you watch an anime episode. When would it be considered a spoiler if we just go by "it took a while for it to be revealed." Five minutes into the first episode? Five minutes after the character was introduced? Or maybe if the reveal is done at the end of the first episode?
nonamethanks said:
It doesn't matter if their identity is revealed in the fourth or in the tenth episode of the anime, it's still a spoiler.
Yes but what type of a spoiler? If it is just a spoiler simply because it took a while for it to be revealed, then it was never really important or a secret to begin with. Similarly if you see a character that looks male but you only have confirmation of this a couple of episodes later, then taging images of this character as boy would all be spoilers.
Setsunator said:
If it is just a spoiler simply because it took a while for it to be revealed, then it was never really important or a secret to begin with.
As said multiple times in the thread, the identity is extremely important for several characters in the early parts of the franchise.
Knowing the identity of Archer from the start completely ruins two out of the three routes of F/SN, for example.
nonamethanks said:
As said multiple times in the thread, the identity is extremely important for several characters in the early parts of the franchise.
Knowing the identity of Archer from the start completely ruins two out of the three routes of F/SN, for example.
True, the problem is that depending on when you jump in, that context is assumed to be known.
Take Archer for example. He has been the same in every outing he has been in, which is the Fate/Extra series and Fate/Grand Order game. In Extra it's outright assumed that you know whom he is. In Grand Order, his backstory is outed to such a degree that he goes by the name EMIYA and acts very much like the younger Shirou.
In Extra it's simply not a secret anymore and by Grand Order there is simply no illusion to keep.
MyrMindservant said:
Yeah, that's correct. What's more, it also does not prevent the same person from voting more than once. So I wouldn't put too much faith in those numbers.
I dunno, when I reloaded the link later to try to see the results all I got was "you have already voted". I also think it's just plain prejudicial to discount the results in any context - just because someone can, doesn't mean it did, much less because it didn't go your way.
sakuraka_ama said:
Plus the survey didn't have any link to this thread, and I assume most of users in danbooru don't even bother checking the forum section
This pretty much. I know I sure don't read the forums on a routine basis. Really should because some one-sided conclusions have been jumped to in the past simply because no one spoke for the opposing view, and sometimes from misreadings of things or without going back and looking at older threads. This thread is no more perfect in representing the overall user base than is the survey.
I don't know if this is really relevant or not, but this is about how much of a mess the Fate character tags are these days, even if it's not about tag implications or true names (which is what this topic seems to mostly be about). Plus, nobody else seems to be bringing this up. I seem to be alone in caring about this way more than the true name stuff.
Anyways, I feel like a lot of the "alternate form" Servant tags are a bit... superfluous. In particular, the swimsuit servants are the worst offenders.
Like, I get why saber_lily and saber_alter have their own tags, because there are notable differences between them and vanilla Saber. And I get why there are alternate tags for berserker_(fate/zero) and lancelot_(fate/grand_order)- Lancelot doesn't have all the corrupting Madness Enhancement as a Saber. ishtar_(fate/grand_order) isn't toosaka_rin, she's just borrowing her body, so she deserves her separate character tag.
But, like... kiyohime_(swimsuit_lancer)_(fate) and elizabeth_bathory_(brave)_(fate), for instance, come off as a bit overboard to me. They're not really separate characters from kiyohime_(fate/grand_order) and lancer_(fate/extra_ccc), they're just Kiyohime in a swimsuit and Elizabeth Bathory in a Dragon Quest cosplay. Kiyohime Lancer and Artoria Archer's bios even state that they're "the same as usual" (and, given that those are the only two I checked, I wouldn't be surprised if ALL of the swimsuit Servants' bios said that). We don't have a sazanami_(santa)_(kantai_collection) tag, because that would be ridiculous- she's still Sazanami, she's just wearing a santa outfit. And, like, yeah, you technically summon them separately, but, like... that's an awfully flimsy reason to give them separate character tags. The only reason that they're separately-summoned Servants instead of limited CG for the original Servants (like the aforementioned Sazanami in a santa outfit) is so that the game can make you more of a slave to the Gacha.
And, of course, there's something that made me really salty when I first realized it- how come Kiyohime gets a second character tag just for putting on a swimsuit, but yuudachi_(kantai_collection) DOESN'T get a new tag for getting a complete image change? There's a very drastic difference between original flavor Yuudachi and Kai Ni Yuudachi- the original Yuudachi has a sort of "ditzy airhead" feel to her, while her Kai Ni has more "badass" and/or "dog" feels to her, depending on the tone of the picture. There have been a number of times where I wanted to find images of one version of Yuudachi in particular, but the only thing I can do is add or remove the remodel_(kantai_collection) tag, and that's not perfect (since the remodel tag might have been added for a DIFFERENT ship).
Meanwhile, Kiyohime isn't just putting on a swimsuit and doing nothing else to change her image, she's putting on a swimsuit that looks incredibly similar to her normal outfit and doing nothing else to change her image. Hell, Kiyohime's final ascension looks more different from normal Kiyohime than swimsuit Kiyohime. Why, oh why, does that get its own tag when Yuudachi Kai Ni doesn't? For that matter, why does that get its own tag when Kiyohime's final ascension doesn't?
Sorry for getting saltier and saltier as that went on, just... I really, really think those tags are superfluous. Looking at any picture that features those variants gets annoying because there are twice as many character tags as there are actual characters in the picture, and every time I see them, I just think to myself, "why are these tags even here?"
AntagonistChan said:
I don't know if this is really relevant or not, but this is about how much of a mess the Fate character tags are these days, even if it's not about tag implications or true names (which is what this topic seems to mostly be about). Plus, nobody else seems to be bringing this up. I seem to be alone in caring about this way more than the true name stuff.
Anyways, I feel like a lot of the "alternate form" Servant tags are a bit... superfluous. In particular, the swimsuit servants are the worst offenders.
Like, I get why saber_lily and saber_alter have their own tags, because there are notable differences between them and vanilla Saber. And I get why there are alternate tags for berserker_(fate/zero) and lancelot_(fate/grand_order)- Lancelot doesn't have all the corrupting Madness Enhancement as a Saber. ishtar_(fate/grand_order) isn't toosaka_rin, she's just borrowing her body, so she deserves her separate character tag.
But, like... kiyohime_(swimsuit_lancer)_(fate) and elizabeth_bathory_(brave)_(fate), for instance, come off as a bit overboard to me. They're not really separate characters from kiyohime_(fate/grand_order) and lancer_(fate/extra_ccc), they're just Kiyohime in a swimsuit and Elizabeth Bathory in a Dragon Quest cosplay. Kiyohime Lancer and Artoria Archer's bios even state that they're "the same as usual" (and, given that those are the only two I checked, I wouldn't be surprised if ALL of the swimsuit Servants' bios said that). We don't have a sazanami_(santa)_(kantai_collection) tag, because that would be ridiculous- she's still Sazanami, she's just wearing a santa outfit. And, like, yeah, you technically summon them separately, but, like... that's an awfully flimsy reason to give them separate character tags. The only reason that they're separately-summoned Servants instead of limited CG for the original Servants (like the aforementioned Sazanami in a santa outfit) is so that the game can make you more of a slave to the Gacha.
And, of course, there's something that made me really salty when I first realized it- how come Kiyohime gets a second character tag just for putting on a swimsuit, but yuudachi_(kantai_collection) DOESN'T get a new tag for getting a complete image change? There's a very drastic difference between original flavor Yuudachi and Kai Ni Yuudachi- the original Yuudachi has a sort of "ditzy airhead" feel to her, while her Kai Ni has more "badass" and/or "dog" feels to her, depending on the tone of the picture. There have been a number of times where I wanted to find images of one version of Yuudachi in particular, but the only thing I can do is add or remove the remodel_(kantai_collection) tag, and that's not perfect (since the remodel tag might have been added for a DIFFERENT ship).
Meanwhile, Kiyohime isn't just putting on a swimsuit and doing nothing else to change her image, she's putting on a swimsuit that looks incredibly similar to her normal outfit and doing nothing else to change her image. Hell, Kiyohime's final ascension looks more different from normal Kiyohime than swimsuit Kiyohime. Why, oh why, does that get its own tag when Yuudachi Kai Ni doesn't? For that matter, why does that get its own tag when Kiyohime's final ascension doesn't?
Sorry for getting saltier and saltier as that went on, just... I really, really think those tags are superfluous. Looking at any picture that features those variants gets annoying because there are twice as many character tags as there are actual characters in the picture, and every time I see them, I just think to myself, "why are these tags even here?"
You raised some good points. I too believe Yuudachi Kai Ni deserves a separate tag.