Uploader and Approver Complaints on Low Quality Images

Apollyon said:
What are you even trying to type here?

Just applying your pre-promotion users' behaviour as an argument for their post-promotion immunity logic to everyone

Alright. I've looked at your history of Flags and I think it's actually hurting your point here. The way you've made it sound in this thread is as if there's a current, rampant issue (read: happening right now) of upload quality with a large number of Contributors and upwards that skip the queue.

Not "right now" but "for a long time". Now better? And just FYI it's not the first time I raised the subject on forum. Sorry if you haven't noticed.

Granted, a lot of those flags were actually warranted. Thing is, in those 69 flags, I'm seeing posts from around 5 Contributors total, with some much older posts from albert bordering on 9+ years of age. The other larger problem is only 2 of those flags are from this year, with the rest from 2014 and 2013. This doesn't sound like the widespread, as-we-speak issue among that set of users that you've made it out to be here.

This only proves that you're still not understanding - or rather desperately refuse to understand - that successfully flagged posts which initially avoided mod queue are usually only a tip of an iceberg and should not be dealt as they are right now: just only +1 to deleted post counter (which matters nothing as such users as avoiding limits anyway).
There is bulk of reasons why is that, the fundamental one is in mod queue default action is "delete" - unless there will be one mod who actually likes the post enough to make it through. Consequently, the more or less "aggresively mediocre[tm]" quality posts are mostly deleted and the quality standards remains quite high.
The flagging system is the reverse of the above. The default action is "stay" - unless there will be one user who actually finds the quality of it repulsive enough to move his ass and flag it with writing a good reason, and all of these with knowledge that it still can be easily overruled with one "lol, nope" click of another person, and even if it will be successful it globally won't change anything as the priviledged poster won't have a single reason to change his quality posting pattern and simply can keep them coming. Flagging posts is psychologicaly negative action, persistent flagging sooner or later would make you look and even feel as at least picky person if not an outright asshole, not to mention the fact flagger is still visible for janitors+ which definitely does not encourage any flagging of their posts. Consequently, for every flag done there is many (how many?) posts who should be flagged and deleted but they probably never will, the posts of mediocre quality which weren't subjected to mod queue first stay on the site and the quality standards drops.

And the final result is what we have now: one site but two different quality standards. The bigger and oh so typical trap new users fell into is trying to learn about the mysterious danbooru quality by examples while failing to recognize which pictures were posted by those who are already privileged and those who had to go through mod queue.

But I did notice two posts you flagged (post #1767558, post #1700156) re-approved by the same Janitor that's being brought into question with this thread.

Yes, you did notice indeed. But if you ask me, I personally prefer the subtle irony of post #1904353

Locking since it's just become people sniping at each other. Someone else is free to reopen if they believe that productive conversation can come out of this.

I've reopened the thread. I actually do want to get this thread back on track, but splitting discussions into separate threads like Fred1515 said is a good suggestion, so I may split off parts of this post into that.

richie: I've been talking in circles disputing whatever you're going to still spout off about, while very few others are attempting to. They must also consider it a waste of time, so take it to your own thread if you want to continue that, because no one else here considers it worth talking about. I'm done with it.

Getting back to the thread. Don't just jump on Kikimaru. Even if he did bring this a lot of this ire himself by replying early with a stupid post, there's reasons to not go at him for the entire time.

As far as Kikimaru goes, it's been clear he's going to upload whatever he pleases, ignoring whatever quality standards are established or users of any level telling him "don't do that". Like I said, I actually don't have a problem with users uploading under that rule, so long as the approval process would work as it should. By the same token, these users shouldn't get Contributor status just because they can throw up posts in bulk, as nearly any posts at the low-end of quality are currently being approved.

Uploading said pending posts should be that much of an issue, because those are pending posts, and not approved yet. With anyone that takes that shotgun approach to uploading those posts, that wants to just let the approvers sort it out, shouldn't there be more focus on the individual users that approve these in the first place? It's one thing if a bad post is in the queue, it's another if it actually gets approved. Approving a post also attaches your name to that post, so you're signing off on that and saying "that's what I think is okay". And approver names are visible, even to people not logged in.

No, Janitors aren't going to share the same standard. It's not reasonable to expect that. That's why there's multiple Janitors with their own individual tastes', and it's why I think one signing off on everything for whatever reasons he's got (if there's reasons at all) seems counterproductive. If that one constantly overlaps what others think, to the point where multiple users are taking enough issue to make note in records, call out in this thread, etc., that sounds like one issue that needs to be discussed further.

To go by the suggestion of remaining as is, flagging posts that I don't think should have been approved at all, using one of my own flimsy reasons like "sending back to the mod queue due to the approver" doesn't seem like much of a solution. It honestly feels pretty weak and just an easy way to avoid taking deeper measures. I'm not going to accept that.

That's how I feel here. There was some earlier discussion regarding deletions and how they affect users under the approval process, so people are welcome to continue that, since that could be considered part of the same issue. If conversation just drops to people going at each other again, feel free to re-lock it.

Please explain what's wrong with posting what I find pleasing?

Honestly I ditched this thread for a few days (and most of my usual time on Danbooru, really) because it was becoming personal-attack-central and because of the seeming hopelessness at any actual change coming about. So, I admit I haven't read the last couple pages.

I agree with Apollyon. It makes no sense to have an approval process where one person rubber stamps the whole lot. Especially when there's enough people that feel the same way to make a row about it.
We shouldn't have to go through and re-flag everything as Step 3 in order to revert back to Step 1. Especially since I, as a Gold user, can only flag 10 posts a day and a regular user only gets 1. Unless, that is, the Janitors are willing to do "double duty" and flag approved posts...which is absurd.

Having someone like that compounds the ease at which users get upload slots: since the mass "automation" of uploads I haven't been able to upload squat except basic comic pages I occasionally camp for due to my lack of understanding of Pixiv and yet I have an upload limit of 62. The likes of sealplayerz and Sythini cracked that in no-time; the latter hit my level of uploads in two months and both became Contributors. Now imagine if one of them decided to slip into uploading everything and became renowned for terrible uploads. I assume that if the system were working correctly they'd at least be stripped of their Contributor status and, if their posts continued to be below-par, would drive themselves into the 4-post barrier.

But apparently we have someone renowned not for uploading terribly, but for approving sub-par posts and thereby encouraging them. Is that an exception?

I don't enjoy ragging like this. Really I shouldn't even care so much, but I came to Danbooru because it was a place with a set of rules that encouraged a great combination of enjoyable art and works translated to a higher standard that could be corrected at any time (i.e. not hard translated) and found easily through a robust tagging system. There are other 'booru sites out there for uploading anything and everything without filtration and I like the idea of having a place to stay that isn't like that.

Kikimaru said:

Please explain what's wrong with posting what I find pleasing?

Nothing. As long as it adheres to the rules and standards.

Danbooru prides itself as "A repository of high-quality anime-style art and doujinshi." Subject matter isn't the issue, it's posts with poor technical skill. You know, bad anatomy, poor linework, artifacting, etc. Things that can objectively be called low quality.

A simple webcomic which sums up this thread.

Kikimaru said:

A simple webcomic which sums up this thread.

That webcomic is good. Your usage of this webcomic in this thread is bad. We're talking about Danbooru users here, this isn't the stupid Internet arguments based around artforms that the webcomic is referring to.

Kikimaru said:

Please explain what's wrong with posting what I find pleasing?

Like I just said, I don't have a problem with you or other users uploading what they find pleasing (within the site rules and quality, as Hoobajoob said), because the approval process would filter pending uploads under normal circumstances. And I know that regardless of what anyone says in this thread, you're just going to keep doing it anyway. As it stands, sometimes I don't approve posts because I think they're "just okay, but not fitting for Danbooru".

Thing is, the approval process that could keep things check is being unknowingly circumvented by someone that rubber stamps posts from the even the bottom of the barrel, with little discretion. And I also know that regardless of what people say in this thread or what the five other Janitors said in negative records, this one Janitor is going to keep doing that anyway. It's like a careless, cynical automation for the approval process, and THAT'S where my problem lies.

Whatever the intentions are, that sort of mindless approving is a terrible approach from someone in a site role with that amount of influence. And it's allowing other careless users, like Negate Attack that hardly ever tag their uploads, much less post anything that would meet some quality standards, to continue. Despite being another result of approvals with little discretion, I take less issue with lazy basic users like this that don't read the big "Before uploading, please read the how to upload guide" text, and far more issue with a higher-level user that enables this crap to begin with.

Did anyone contact Albert about the issue? More importantly, does Albert even care?

It seems like this shitstorm happens regularly now. We know what the problem is. We know who the problem is. But every time it gets dredged up, everyone beats around the bush and come up with non-solutions to non-problems and tone-police so no one's fee-fees get hurt. Then, in Danbooru tradition, inertia wins and the thread sinks to oblivion with nothing accomplished. Repeat in three months.

Five years ago, Hazuki warned us what would happen if we started letting anyone with a pulse and a keyboard be a janitor. What more, Albert seems completely fine with this, given his silence and steadfast refusal to do anything. In that case, I don't blame people for abominable standards and piss-poor tagging; after all, if the site owner himself doesn't give a shit, why should they?

Moderators can demote Janitors, not just Admins. Either deal with the problem, or stop making these unproductive, utterly insane "discussions" and get used to this place being Gelbooru 2.0.

Hillside_Moose said:
We know what the problem is. We know who the problem is.

Do we?
One or the other user being witch hunted is not the problem.
If anything, it's only a symptom of the problem - which is an inefficient and outdated approval system (dys)functioning here.

More importantly, does Albert even care?

No.

Reopened, because Hillside Moose brings up points worth talking about. Also, there really wasn't any arguing since the last two posts.

Hillside_Moose said:

Did anyone contact Albert about the issue? More importantly, does Albert even care?

He's been contacted about the issue by me and others weeks ago. No actual response. Whether that implies he's okay with what's going on or doesn't care is anyone's guess.

It seems like this shitstorm happens regularly now. We know what the problem is. We know who the problem is. But every time it gets dredged up, everyone beats around the bush and come up with non-solutions to non-problems and tone-police so no one's fee-fees get hurt. Then, in Danbooru tradition, inertia wins and the thread sinks to oblivion with nothing accomplished. Repeat in three months.

The thread was closed before for reasons of people going at each other. And yet, that was among the most progress that was made in the thread, as far as people expressing their problems with what's going on.

Also, you're right. There's really no reason anymore to dance around the fact that the one Janitor seen as a problem by Gold users, Contributors, other Janitors, and even Moderators is Not_One_Of_Us. And that's alongside the negative records that Janitors from the aforementioned have given him. Yeah, I get why most people wouldn't care what gets approved on an artwork repository, but that's not the point. If there have been even this amount of users willing to speak up, or this thread even existing in the first place, that seems like signs of an issue.

I don't understand how info can be searched, shown, and presented in a thread like this, but people constantly refuse to act on it.

Five years ago, Hazuki warned us what would happen if we started letting anyone with a pulse and a keyboard be a janitor. What more, Albert seems completely fine with this, given his silence and steadfast refusal to do anything. In that case, I don't blame people for abominable standards and piss-poor tagging; after all, if the site owner himself doesn't give a shit, why should they?

I'll propose this, then: Going by his lack of a response in general, Albert doesn't care about the subject of the thread. Or, maybe he believes people can manage things themselves without his intervention needed. So, would he even have a problem with a Moderator demoting a Janitor that people take issue with?

Moderators can demote Janitors, not just Admins. Either deal with the problem, or stop making these unproductive, utterly insane "discussions" and get used to this place being Gelbooru 2.0.

And ultimately, that's what this comes down to. A decision from people who actually have the power that can actually act on what's been given, or more threads like this where the people who don't have that power get to talk in circles and repeat what's already been said, where it gets harder to not mention anyone by name.

I'm sure a lot of you think Hillside Moose is being harsh here. But regardless of tone, he's right. How many more times do we need to have threads like this where things are shown, points are made, but no real action is taken on the problem(s) presented?

Agreed. I thought only admins could promote/demote janitors, so now I don't know why there was so much talk wasted on the pretty clear-cut case of Not_One_Of_Us, when NWF himself could have simply dealt with the situation on his own.

What is your problem, anyway? Let's look at what I understand to be your primary assertions:

• Not_One_Of_Us is approving lots of "bad" images.
• Nobody else approves or uploads nearly as many "bad" images as Not_One_Of_Us.
• Approving "bad" images encourages users to upload more "bad" images.
• More "bad" images being approved will do irreparable, unacceptable harm to Danbooru/the Internet/the Universe.

Even assuming that the first three are true, I don't understand the reasoning behind the fourth. The servers can handle it. The guy who is paying the bills apparently doesn't mind. It doesn't seem to be causing any mass exodus of users. It isn't preventing people from uploading and viewing good images. Doesn't that basically leave us with this?

• More "bad" images being approved will make us, the loud and angry minority, even louder and angrier and more determined to force our incoherent, egotistical "standard" upon everyone else, so why don't you do us all a favor and do as we say right now?

Is it so strange that those in command aren't rushing to carry out the public cashiering (preferably followed by swift execution) you keep baying for?

Edit: You might counter by saying that enforcing a standard that might be seen as incoherent and egotistical is what Danbooru is all about. That's debatable, and again, even if we assume that you are right, in this case you have abandoned any pretense of seeking at least an internal consensus. Never mind that only a tiny minority of the Administratum, not to mention the whole body of users, have come out in your favor. Never mind that you don't have the God-Emperor's approval. He's just an old dead guy who doesn't care anymore. Get some sympathetic Inquisitor to do the deed and let justice prevail!

http://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki_pages/5650:
(on donmai.us) A repository of high-quality anime-style art and doujinshi.

There are other boorus out there already that accept any kind of art no matter the quality, but what Danbooru offers is actual curation of the content. That's not debatable, it's the reason why danbooru exists in the first place.

So, what Not_One_Of_Us is doing is actually nothing less than destroying Danbooru's soul? Violating it? Making it impure? Transforming it into a wretched abomination that is not the beautiful Danbooru you knew and loved? (Like one of those, ahem, other girls boorus.) That's exactly what I suspected. As if gay marriage wasn't bad enough.

I'm not going to argue with fundamentalism, online or offline. I might still try to dissuade people who would consider appeasing it.

An Edit, in case I misunderstood you:

I'm not saying that Danbooru should be a free hosting service for arbitrary images. When I wrote that standards are debatable, I was thinking about their inherently fuzzy and subjective nature, and about whether to define them positively or negatively. Should the mission be to gather as much good art as possible, or to reject as much bad art as possible? There are about two million posts here. NOOU has 127335 approvals and 8370 uploads. Even if every single one of those posts was "bad", they would constitute less than 7% of the total. Hardly a flood.

Flopsy said:

So, what Not_One_Of_Us is doing is actually nothing less than destroying Danbooru's soul? Violating it? Making it impure? Transforming it into a wretched abomination that is not the beautiful Danbooru you knew and loved? (Like one of those, ahem, other girls boorus.) That's exactly what I suspected. As if gay marriage wasn't bad enough.

I'm not going to argue with fundamentalism, online or offline. I might still try to dissuade people who would consider appeasing it.

What is your problem, anyway? The way you're talking make it sound like you have a personal vendetta against the mere idea that Danbooru be curated, which is strange considering that, as S1eth just said, that is the point of the site in the first place. If you don't like it, you're free to go to Gelbooru instead.

And curation is worth it in this case. I do enjoy good illustrations, and I do enjoy not having to wade through mountains of shit whenever I want to find a good illustrator.

Re: edit, that's a more understandable argument, but then, this topic was started because NWF Renim received multiple complaints regarding this matter; and in any case, NOOU and the other uploaders that were mentioned in the previous pages have received negative feedback for this, so obviously it is a problem for people.

Pianist said:

What is your problem, anyway? The way you're talking make it sound like you have a personal vendetta against the mere idea that Danbooru be curated,

See my belated edit to my reply to S1eth's reply. I'm sorry about coming on too hard, there. The "What is this filth doing on my site?!?" attitude, from anyone who isn't Albert, is actually my pet peeve.

Flopsy said:

(Like one of those, ahem, other girls boorus.) That's exactly what I suspected. As if gay marriage wasn't bad enough.

NOOU has 127335 approvals and 8370 uploads. Even if every single one of those posts was "bad", they would constitute less than 7% of the total. Hardly a flood.

Since you seem to like making arbitrary striking real-life comparisons, the average malignant tumor makes up roughly what percentage of body mass and cell count again? Tha'd be about as relevant.

order:rank

There, all the bad images are gone now.

Guys, try to chill out. Either we discuss it constructively or the topic gets locked and deleted, and the problem remains unresolved. Also, let me join the discussion.

First of all, thankfully I'm not an approver nor a contributor, so feel free to call my taste awful or whatever, but I think that majority of the posts approved by NOOU are good enough to stay on the site. Though, I'd never approve some of them myself if I had a chance, but that is true for uploads and approvals by other users, too. More than that, knowing how he tends to approve things at the last second before the posts fall to abyss forever, I can't help but wonder if each and every post under approver:Not_One_Of_Us was deemed bad enough by other approvers?

What I'm trying to say here is that approval system perhaps lacks some kind of feedback from approvers to uploader, and means to exchange opinions between approvers. I think it would actually help a great deal to know that your upload was rejected by several approvers rather than wonder if it was simply overlooked. Additionally, if an approver thinks the post is bad and rejects it (ideally, commenting what's wrong with it), it could serve as a signal for others to double-check it before approving or rejecting as well, which could in turn resolve most shitstorms before they even start. That doesn't really solve contributor problem, but at least it's something.

Thoughts? Approval system is pretty trivial and old compared to the rest of the site, maybe it's due some improvements?